What Now?

[BWrangler]

No popular support of America's invasion by the people of Iraq. No Iraq weapons of mass destruction found. No links to Al Queda destroyed. No Saddam. No intelligence in "classified intelligence".

Does anyone else from the Vietnam era feel a tightening in the stomach when thinking about Iraq or when the days "body count" is reported on the news?

[BjornBee]

Your use of the word invasion pretty much says it all. I love discussions like this so here goes....

If you have never been overseas, and I doubt you were, you would know that 99% of all people from most countries in that part of the world would drop everything to come to this great land of opportunity. A few radicals in most instances can sway the weak minded and weak hearted. They are hoping to reach people in the states who will back thier cause by hurting or not supporting thier own country.

After 911, we should not look at individuals or specific situations in regards to world peace. Look at the big picture and where the world is going. Organized terrorism and acts such as 911 will only increase if nothing is done. Two things I know. One is the world is safer when the taliban/afghanistan and Saddam/Iraq are no longer able to support any forms of terrorism. Two is that it is not over for a long time. So for weak stomach people, I'm glad I didn't have to serve next to you when I did my part.

World economical power/wealth/freedom is directly divided into those having free markets and elected goverments and those who have dictators and regimes. Whether your country's resources/manpower/lives are used to change the world for the better or just continue doing nothing and paying the price via the next 911 or perhaps Korea's nuclear blackmail. I prefer to back the plan of offense. I wonder how far communism would of gone if we didn't have people willing to pay the price in the past.

Up till now we did our part in the world by being in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, gulf 1 and 2, and a few more I missed. All along the way we bailed or helped alot of other countries. Remember Hitler, and all those who didn't think it was our fight. Funny thing about how sooner or later you have to do something and sometimes its much harder by waiting. We did all this while giving away billions of aid money. Funny thing about the states, we are the best econony, best standard of living, #1 choice of anyone wanting to flee the middle east, all while having to hear the liberal wussies cry, moan and belittle this country.

If you look at this countries contributions and what we have done in 2 hundred years of existance, its amazing. This is just one more piece that years from now people will look back and be glad it happened. I just wish more people had the guts. Its always funny how people from third world countries have guts and will power, because they aren't sitting in front of a computor, eating twinkies and excersizing thier free speech rights.

Being from Wyoming, I'm sure you have a country station up there. Not a big country fan myself but have been listening to it alot lately. Good songs like the one that asks "Have you forgotten?" Maybe you can listen to it and a few others and harden that stomach up a bit. Its a tough world out there, and maybe you would appreciate it more if you saw some of it. Most who have seen it have different views from the wussies.

"What now?", you ask. Its hard to explain the future when some don't understand the past. I can say it won't be utopia like some think it can.

[mark williams]

<we did our part in the world by being in VIETNAM>.... WHAT PART????.That was nothing but B.S>>>>>MARK

[BjornBee]

Stopping the spread of communism.
Willingness to go beyond our borders.
Learning from your MISTAKES.
Making a stand around the world for a greater cause.

I'll look at ALL the contributions that this country has made and why we are where were at. I'll agree that maybe without the hippies and "body counters" and "country bashers", the war could of been different. But the world is at its current place in time and its pretty good in the good ol' USA. World change does not happen overnight. Nor do I expect a bunch of "humans" that make up this country to NOT make some mistakes along the way.

Saying we could of done things differently is one thing,(ie. B.S.) understanding the world theatre and why we were there is another.

We have come along way but were not sitting to bad if you look around. (And even made some mistakes along the way.)

(Funny how most vets understand why they were there, they just couldn't understand the non supportive Americans back home.) We did learn not to let that same thing happen again.

[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited June 29, 2003).]

[cpecka]

Well written and accepted BjornBee. "De Oppesso Liber"

I'll hold my comment on Mark's Blathering "<we did our part in the world by being in VIETNAM>.... WHAT PART????.That was nothing but B.S>>>>>MARK"

Charles Pecka
MSG, USA Retired
Special Forces

[mark williams]

cpecka: U.S.M.C With a missing left foot,like I said B.S.>>>>Mark

[dragonfly]

From what I can see of the Viet Nam era, the BS was in the White House because we basically had political leaders who did not want us to win. They didn't have the stomach for it or the will to accomplish it. It didn't help that we had the dawning of the flag-burning free love society making a**es of themselves over here. And no, I'm not a vet. I was too young for Nam and too old for the Gulf. I was a high school girl in the early 70's, but I never held the vets in anything but high esteem. As I mentioned in a previous thread a few months back, I had my reservations about going into a foreign nation to remove the leader, and I still do have those reservations. Not because I have any admiration for Hussein, but because the people living in a country with a leader like him often have a dictator for a reason. The general populus appears to need someone to rule who uses brute force. They just loved us when we came in freed them from a tyrant, but if we left, I bet they would be in another fix in no time. They don't appear to be ready for a democracy.

[clintonbemrose]

Well written and accepted BjornBee.

I'll hold my comment on Mark's Blathering.
That was nothing but B.S MARK"
Some people know not what they talk about.

Clinton Bemrose
Sargent, USA disabled
Special Forces
Lost both legs below the knees.

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[mark williams]

Go to the wall in Washington.D.C.,read the thousand's of name's.look at the people face that is visiting the wall.most lost alove one &looking for their name on that wall,Stopping communism? we lost remember.Learning from our mistake? very costly.Willingness to go beyond our borders,I'll agree what happened on Sept-11.I'd be on the 1st shipment out of here to defend my country.as would most Americans.,But as stated what good was it with our invoment in Vietham?as far as my Blathering(what ever that mean's).I feel as I've got the right's to my thought's in this matter as well as you've got your's.That is the right's we all have in this great nation,is we can openly tell our felling's.America ,yes I love it & would die for it & it's freedom.So my granddauther can enjoy it also.<some people know not what they talk about>.well I feel that I know what I'm talking about.after 32-33 year's I'm still wondering why?

[BjornBee]

If you place yourself in the 1960's and think about the Soviet Union, China, the spread of socialism and communisim, and the "movements" that were at hand, and realize where we are now, then I think that there is something good that came out of Vietnam.

I would like to personally thank Mark Williams and all who contributed in getting our country to its present day. I do not think that lives were wasted and it was all BS. I did not lose any body parts myself in any war, but think its sad for those who did to think that it was for nothing. This country sits as a power today because all that has happened in the past. Good and Bad.

If this country ever falls, it will be from within. Same reason we lost vietnam. Not from outside forces, but from within. (Sitting in the US and looking at the "Victors" 30 years later, do you really think we lost?) I look at the big picture puzzle of where we are headed, not one piece that happens to be called "Vietnam".

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,

>Your use of the word invasion pretty much says it all. I love discussions like this so here goes....

I choose the word invasion not with malace but it was good enough for my fathers generation when then invaded Normandy. Besides I think expeditiary sounds like a camping trip or something.

>If you have never been overseas, and I doubt you were, you would know that 99% of all people from most countries in that part of the world would drop everything to come to this great land of opportunity.

I agree. They would love to come to this country for our freedom and economic opportunity. Yet many of those same people were opposed this particular action of our country and were condemned in earlier discussion.

>So for weak stomach people, I'm glad I didn't have to serve next to you when I did my part.

The tightening in my stomach has nothing to do with weakness. But it has everything to do with the sacrifices others are being call to make.

I am in no danger of being drafted or sent to Iraq. But I am not 18 anymore either and the duties that I had then which involved trusting the leadership of this country are not the same. It is now important to hold the leadership of this country accountable. To keep them honest and not follow them blindy ever time they beat the war drum.

I don't think there is a normal person in this country that could visit the wall and not have their stomach tighten up. Would you be ashamed of them too?

I doubt that waving the flag and talking about the fall of communism and the advantage of a free market economy would be appropriate there either. Maybe for some but not for me.

The sacrifices made by those in that war are like all sacrifices, personal. No one can reduce what they gave to acceptable colateral losses or political, economic gains. Those kids sacrifices are much more knoble, things like integrity, loyalty, honor and duty to those who trusted them for their lives.

>Being from Wyoming,

Yep, I'm from Wyoming and know too well how easily we define our place in the world by the use of our guns. Not a recent thing either. A number of our Presidents sent expeditiary forces out west to make the world a better place. But for who?

>Its hard to explain the future when some don't understand the past.

For a little help in understanding maybe you could tell me who insisted that the Iraqs nuclear program continue against the protests of the IAEC?

Could you also tell me who supplied Irag with the very germs used for their germ warfare program. How much did they cost?

I would like to know the country of that ambassador who with the nod of her head gave tacit approval for the invasion of Kuwait. It wouldn't have occured without that nod.

Well, it was the US. We were the major factor in creating Saddam Hussein in our revenge against Iran. The germs cost nothing. We gave them to Irag for free! And when our ambassodor to Iraq was called in the weekend before the Kuwait invasion, she reiterated that the US wouldn't intervene in Iraqs regonal affairs so Saddam Hussein went ahead with his plans.

It's not all black and white or good and bad like theings seemed when we were 18. We have a greater perspective and hence a greater responcibility to those 18 year olds who are fighting.

>I can say it won't be utopia like some think it can.

Wars will always be necessary in this world.

My responcibility now, is not to wear the helmut, but to make sure that those who do can trust their leaders.

And when the very purposes which justified our action in Iraq seem to be erroneous, it's time to stop beating the drum and ask what's going on here.

Regards
Dennis

[cpecka]

Go to the wall in Washington.D.C.,read the thousand's of name's.look at the people face that is visiting the wall.

I have, I have two Brothers there. Feb 1968

No disrespect of any Vetnam Era Vet is intended by my statement.

But, I can not accept that my brothers, brothers in arms, or fellow soldiers died for BS... At the time of the mission on the squad or team level we did what we were told. Because that is what we do. Not because it is BS.

Mark I only wish, that I had my brothers back disabled. I went into the Army to serve in thier honor. nothing more.. as they volunteered to go.

[This message has been edited by cpecka (edited July 01, 2003).]

[mark williams]

I am sorry to everyone that I expesssed my feeling on the subject.I did'nt mean to offend anyone.I also lost a lot of people that Icared alot about over there,But after 30 odd years I've still have my feeling's about that war.The B.S. was not on the part of the men & women that served over there,they did there best,To me the B.S. was in Washington that at the time was our leader's.For not letting us do a job that we started. cpecka: I'm deeply sorry for your lost.God Bless you & all.>>>>Mark

[hoosierhiver]

having worked in asia with vietnamese refugees,i gained some perspective on the war in vietnam,for alot of vietnamese it was a war for independance from foreign occupiers.in ww2,ho chi minh fought with the u.s. against the japanese,but at the end of the war we liberated france,but not vietnam,they were france's property.communism was a way they could acquire support for their struggle for independence.

[Michael Bush]

The Viet Cong were our allies against China. The Taliban were our allies against the Russians. Saddam was our ally against the Iranians. It doesn't look like a very safe thing to be one of our allies.

[BjornBee]

In all three of your examples, we see countries that recieved our help from invading forces. Unfornately time changes situation. Viet cong went communist, the taliban(really coming into power after the Russians pulled back) harbored terrorists who attacked on 911, and Saddam was a dictator who decided to invade another, among countless other items. All three examples are of people or countries who, once helped, turned on us. To dicuss the inner details of each would be stupid since most really do not understand the foriegn agendas, international politics involved, etc.

A better saying would be "Its really does not look good to be one of our enemies".

Instead of always hearing people question our politics, agendas, trustworthiness, mistakes, (all which needs to be done), maybe we can hear from some who think another countries contributions, aid, political/military agendas and freedoms are better than the good old USA. Are there other countries who spend more "defending NATO", or freeing countries under dictators, coming to aid in times of world turmoil, stavations, refugee situations,etc. (Not all of which I think we should of done.)

Anyone want to take a stab at it?

[Michael Bush]

>In all three of your examples, we see countries that recieved our help from invading forces. Unfornately time changes situation. Viet cong went communist,

After we refused to help them in their war for independance from the French.

>the taliban(really coming into power after the Russians pulled back) harbored terrorists who attacked on 911,

But we did arm them against the Russians. Either it's not that good to be our ally, or we don't choose our allies very well. All in all it seems pretty counterproductive for us to have "helped".

>and Saddam was a dictator who decided to invade another, among countless other items.

Again, we didn't choose our ally very well. We armed a meglamaniac in the hopes he would fight our enmey.

>All three examples are of people or countries who, once helped, turned on us.

I guess I see three bad choices on our part. All of our plans in these cases backfired on us. Partly because we often let down our allies and partly because we don't always choose them well.

>To dicuss the inner details of each would be stupid since most really do not understand the foriegn agendas, international politics involved, etc.

Sorry we are all so ignorant.

[BjornBee]

We refused....
We did arm....
We didn't choose....
"Our" plan backfired.....
We often let our allies down....
"Three bad choices...."

Yes all of these situations were our fault, and we blew it.

Now thats some positive comments. I'm surprised some still live in this country with as bad as they paint the pictures. I'm surprised there isn't masses of people fleeing this warmongering/mistake ridden cesspool of a country.

The original post had to do with Iraq. My last post on this will be to say I'm glad G.W. Bush has the balls after 911 to say "enough is enough". I'm glad we live in the greatest country of our time. I'm glad our military from time to time has tried to make an effort to help the world. I'm not ashamed to be proud of where we live. I do not want to ask my country in the future "why couldn't they stop this 911 ahead of time". I can only imagine what this world could of been without us. And I hate to think what it will become with so many negative, non-supportive, people within our own borders. How did we ever achieve the greatness we did?

Most of the comments on this particular post have been from those who have nothing good to say about the USA or any positive contributions it has made to date in the world.

You can sit around and do nothing, and sooner or later you'll find out how hatefilled, motivated, and willing to blow us up ,others can be.

[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited July 02, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

>The original post had to do with Iraq. My last post on this will be to say I'm glad G.W. Bush has the balls after 911 to say "enough is enough".

I am certainly in favor of standing up to our enemies. I think we need to be careful who we call our enemies and how we confront them.

I certainly won't say Saddam is a nice guy. I don't see any eveidence that he sent the attacks on 911. I won't say he doesn't deserve to die for the atrocities he has committed against his own people, against the Kurds against the Kuwatis and against the Iranians. However people all over the world commit atrocities and I'm not sure it is wise to send our young men into every one of these situations to try to right it.

I think the wisdom or lack of it in attacking Saddam still remains to be seen. It may have been the best thing. It may have been a very bad idea. Time will tell if it was a bad idea. It will be hard to tell if it was a good idea without a crystal ball.

>I'm glad we live in the greatest country of our time.

So am I.

>I'm glad our military from time to time has tried to make an effort to help the world.

Sometimes violence is the only solution. But sometimes it is a horrible idea. Discerning when it is the only solution is a very difficult thing.

>I'm not ashamed to be proud of where we live.

Nor am I. But if you are not ashamed of things our government has done against the American Indians and other minorities, then you haven't studied much history or you only care about White Americans.

>I do not want to ask my country in the future "why couldn't they stop this 911 ahead of time".

Terrorism is impossible to control. Even with a totalterian government and no civil rights, historically it has always been impossible to control. "Security is an illusion" (Hellen Keller)

>I can only imagine what this world could of been without us. And I hate to think what it will become with so many negative, non-supportive, people within our own borders.

Questioning our government is not only our right. It is our duty. It is how we became this great nation.

>How did we ever achieve the greatness we did?

By questioning the right of our government (then King George) to control our lives and demanding our freedom and being willing to fight, kill and possibly to die for that freedom against those who directly threatened it.

>Most of the comments on this particular post have been from those who have nothing good to say about the USA

I don't remember anything negative about the USA in these posts. Questioning the government, yes. I have never heard anyone on this board who is from the US who seemed to think we did not live in the most wonderful country in the world.

Contrary to popular beleif our government is not modeled off of Parliment or any other Democracy or Republic that came before it. It was the second government (the first "Western" governent) to have a constitution that defines the scope of the governments powers and a seperation of powers to help prevent abuses by the government. This, of course, was modeled directly off of the Iriquois Confederacy, which was the first government to be set up this way. Our government was founded on the principle of freedom. Contrary to popular belief, it is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic, and it is not founded on "democratic" principles but rather on constitutional principles. The foundation of which is the bill of rights.

>or any positive contributions it has made to date in the world.

Our country and our government have made many mistakes and done many wonderful things. To ignore the mistakes and to not question them is to condem us to repeat them.

>You can sit around and do nothing, and sooner or later you'll find out how hatefilled, motivated, and willing to blow us up ,others can be.

What do you suggest we do? I have not seen any of the "enemy" so I am unclear what you expect us to do. I don't ever remember "sitting around doing nothing".

[BjornBee]

I did not want to carry this post any further but feel compeled to respond to two items. (M.Bush)

#1. You quoted the great foriegn policy maker, statesman, political leader, and foremost authority on national security, Helen Keller "Security is an illusion".

I am not a follower of her but I take it as an insult to me and many I know who served/serving this country. Whether it be in the military, on our borders, or other "responders", to suggest that effort in security is nothing more than an illusion. I did my time, 11 years, and to say my time in a gaurd shack half way around the world, or spending Christmas alone in barracks, or any other sacrifice I made, was nothing more than an illusion is a slap in my face. Stopping a car with explosions at the border a few years back was an illusion?
Your use of the word control would be much more correct if replaced by "eliminate". I would say eliminating is impossible but to say that you can not "control" terrorism in any degree is ludicrous. (By the way since 911, acts of terrorism are at an all time low.)

#2. I am no more ashamed for what the "Goverment-i.e. People" of this country did a hundred years ago to the indians, than I am of how any group was treated. Mexicans, Chinese, Catholics, blacks, etc. Those were the times. Can we learn from them, of course. To suggest that my lack of "shame" therefore means I only care about "white Americans" borders on accusations of Racism. How dare you make any assumptions on me or any other based on your views.
Do we really expect this generation of Germans to walk the daily path feeling ashamed of what past generations did. How about the Japenese? Many examples could be listed. I can say nasty things were done as throughout history has shown. But to say we should all feel ashamed?
I am sure you would be better off being proud of your heritage, instead of feeling ashamed of the "indian scouts" who betrayed their own. One is constructive and one is destructive. I choose to be positive and look forward. Not negative and looking back.

[Michael Bush]

>#1. You quoted the great foriegn policy maker, statesman, political leader, and foremost authority on national security, Helen Keller "Security is an illusion".

Helen Keller was one of the most remarkable people to live on this planet. She was intelligent and insightful in ways that few people have ever been. I thought it unfair to quote her without a reference. A more accurate and full quote would be:

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing."

I believe that giving up our freedom and civil rights will not get us security nor will anything else. That does not preclude reasonable efforts to secure it, but it is an elusive goal.

>I am not a follower of her but I take it as an insult to me and many I know who served/serving this country.

I am not a "follower" of Helen Keller. She is but one of many wise people I have learned from. I certainly would never intentionally insult anyone who has served in the military for this country and certainly am grateful and wish to honor all of those who have made sacrifices for this country.

>Whether it be in the military, on our borders, or other "responders", to suggest that effort in security is nothing more than an illusion. I did my time, 11 years, and to say my time in a gaurd shack half way around the world, or spending Christmas alone in barracks, or any other sacrifice I made, was nothing more than an illusion is a slap in my face. Stopping a car with explosions at the border a few years back was an illusion?
Your use of the word control would be much more correct if replaced by "eliminate". I would say eliminating is impossible but to say that you can not "control" terrorism in any degree is ludicrous. (By the way since 911, acts of terrorism are at an all time low.)

I am certainly in favor of reasonable efforts to stop terrorism. However it is ludicrious to think you can stop it. The Germans in France during WWII, with totalitarian power could not put a dent in the French underground. The nature of life is that it is much simpler to destroy than to build. If you stop one car of explosives, that is good. But the reality is there is no real limitation on the number of people they can get to keep trying and even if you give up all of your freedoms, they will on occasion succeed.

>#2. I am no more ashamed for what the "Goverment-i.e. People" of this country did a hundred years ago to the indians, than I am of how any group was treated. Mexicans, Chinese, Catholics, blacks, etc. Those were the times.

Mexicans, Chinese, Catholics and blacks were not subjects of Genocide.

>Can we learn from them, of course. To suggest that my lack of "shame" therefore means I only care about "white Americans" borders on accusations of Racism. How dare you make any assumptions on me or any other based on your views.

My intention was not to offend you. It was to point out that our government has done shameful things and they only reason those things have changed is because people questioned what the government was doing instead of blindly supporting it. I don't see how you can NOT consider genocide and ethnocide as shameful.

>Do we really expect this generation of Germans to walk the daily path feeling ashamed of what past generations did. How about the Japenese?

I do not expect the young Germans of today to feel personally responsible for what the Nazis did. I DO hope that they will be ashamed of what their country did and to question their government so that such things will not happen again.

>Many examples could be listed. I can say nasty things were done as throughout history has shown. But to say we should all feel ashamed?

Personally ashamed? No I don't think so. Collectively ashamed? Yes. When our people have done horrible things we should be unaffected?

>I am sure you would be better off being proud of your heritage, instead of feeling ashamed of the "indian scouts" who betrayed their own.

Almost all the Indian Scouts were working against their traditional enemies and not against their own tribe. The Crow scouts who worked against the Sioux had been their enemies for time immemorial. This was not betrayal. It was a way to fight their enemies.

>One is constructive and one is destructive. I choose to be positive and look forward. Not negative and looking back.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
(George Santayana)

It's good to know where you've been.

[wjw777]

Hi,
Heavy subject for all. One must live during that time. Alot of things came into play in that "so call war" . the nation was not behind it. Media printed half truths that only encouraged the enemy. and our soldiers were sent there not to win this war . I can't explain it . I Look at it like a hive. the drones in Washington got big and fat while the workers were sent out to work themselfs to death. I love Thomas Jefferson , he said the best form of government is the less form of government. We have been blessed with a great country, sometimes I think when countries want to go to war ,we should put all the leaders in a room and let them go at it and who comes out Wins" I think there were 55 signers of the Decoration of Indenpence , most were rich merchants ,or land owners, 5 of them where captured and was tortured and died, two lost their sons all but a few lost all their riches and died poor. These are men who had a cause and were willing to die and sacifice what they had including their lives. in Washington the majority are rich and getting richer, they make more than any of us and there pension is out of this world . their health care isn't medicare either, They were put there to serve not get rich. They let jobs go overseas, they back bills benifit a few and the majority get nothing, But its still the greatest nation in the world ,even with our faults, and I thank God for His loving Mercy that He shed on the United States.
Walt