Removing Q-cells from finisher colony.

[Dan Williamson]

Every book I have says to remove the q-cells the day before emergence and place in mating nucs, splits, or to requeen an existing hive. (Unless you want the queen to hatch in a hair roller cage or something like that)

Is it critical to do it the day prior or can it be done 2-3 days prior to emergence if there are scheduling conflicts otherwise??

Just curious as to whether there is any specific reasons for waiting till the day prior to emergence.

Thanks.

[ April 25, 2006, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

[MichaelW]

I believe incubation at the proper temperature is the issue.

I pulled out some 3 days before emergence and had about 1/2 fail to emerge. I added about 3 cells per mating nuc to figure on failures. (Extras were swarm cells).

[tarheit]

Part of it is also to minimize injury. The closer to emergence they are, the less fragile and subject to injury they are.

I typically remove the cells from the cell builder soon after they are capped (and put a freshly grafted batch in their place.) Of course its transported in a portable incubator and I do my best not bump or jar the cells.

-Tim

[Michael Bush]

2 days prior is my goal. In hot weather they will sometimes emerge on day 15 instead of 16. Sooner than 14 and it seems like the cells are much more fragile.

[Dan Williamson]

I figured it wasn't a huge deal. I assumed maybe it was due to potential injury but didn't know exactly the reasoning.

I put 9 cells into nucs on Sun. They should hatch today. Gives me my 2 days. Three cells I put in hair roller cages to see how they fare hatching there and then introduce afterwards. Another I put in a hive I want to requeen above an excluder to see how it does.

This was my first time grafting and I didn't expect it to go as well as it did. (13/18 sealed) Of course they haven't hatched yet I just didn't think I would get that many sealed. So I figured I'd experiment a little and try some different things.

[ April 25, 2006, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

[peggjam]

"This was my first time grafting and I didn't expect it to go as well as it did. (13/18 sealed) Of course they haven't hatched yet I just didn't think I would get that many sealed."

Congrats on the success rate. I'm gonna try some grafting in a few weeks, when I see some drones in the hives. I can only hope I do as well.

[Dan Williamson]

>>Congrats on the success rate. I'm gonna try some grafting in a few weeks, when I see some drones in the hives. I can only hope I do as well.

Well, I guess I'll consider it a success when I have them hatched and laying but frankly I expected a zero percent acceptance rate on my first try. It really wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be. 3 of the cells failed because they fell off the bar. Hard for them to draw the cell out when it is laying on the Cloake board slide. :D But thanks for the congrats anyhow.

Two things I would recommend especially on the first time that helped me.

1. Robin Mountain told me that he encourages his students to practice grafting to their thumbnail. Doing this helps you get the feel of gently rolling the tool between your thumb and finger (I use straight stainless grafting needle) and gently depositing the larvae onto your thumbnail. It will just help you get used to using whatever tool you have and you can easily see your thumbnail as opposed to trying to deposit into the bottom of a cell cup. Helped me to feel more confident when I actually had to do it "for real".

2. Good light is critical. I used a camping type headlamp. Worked great for me.

My thoughts are greatly tempered by the fact that I have only grafted once. It is just what helped me my first time.

[ April 25, 2006, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

[peggjam]

Dan

Thanks for the hints, can't wait to try this. I got a coon hunting light I plan to use, can't get much brighter than that :D :D :D .

[Dan Williamson]

>>can't get much brighter than that

I did't say to blind them for God's sake! :D :D ;)

[BerkeyDavid]

Dan
Let me add congrats! I am trying to get up the nerve to do it and watching the drone population.

Do you deposit an actual larva on your fingernail when practicing? I have a chinese grafting tool so it is a little different.

[Dan Williamson]

I don't think it matters what tool you have.

I think the key is just in practicing picking up larvae with whatever tool you have and actually practicing sliding the larvae off gently onto your fingernail. Robin could explain better but I think the point to it is that it helps you to get a feel of how to gently get the larvae off of your tool without causing injury to it. If you can get the larvae gently off of your tool onto a hard surface like your nail w/out damaging it you can graft them into cells.

You can see what you are doing on your fingernail alot better than what you can see when trying to deposit it into a cell. I basically pulled a frame of the right age larvae and practiced grafting probably 50 larvae onto my fingernail. I screwed up probably half of the first 20 and then seemed to find the right touch. My opinion is that if you don't practice first then those damaged larvae end up in your first real attempt at grafting and the success rate is obviously much smaller.

Hey I'm new at this too. Others on this site have the real experience of doing it 100's-1000's of times.

I'm just trying to explain what helped me as a grafting newbie. smile.gif

[Michael Bush]

I thought of a good reason to graft. smile.gif The Jenter works great in my backyard. I just confine the queen one evening after work. Release her the next, transfer larvae on the fourth day etc. But I want to raise some ferals that moved into a hive in my outyard and keep them as a seperate strain for a backup if my home yard gets inbred. The problem is my outyard is 60 miles one way. If I go out and just find some larvae the right age (which I've learned to spot from doing the Jenter and dealing with larvae of a known age) and graft them I can save two trips. smile.gif

[BerkeyDavid]

OK, thanks Dan. I will try that sounds like a good way to practice.

MB: yeah with the price of gas that would be worth it.

[Michael Bush]

I grafted a cell bar's worth last night. The bees hadn't hatched the eggs in the jenter box and I already set up the cell starter (the day before) so I grafted them instead. I didn't have any standard cups. It's really easy to lay them down on the Jenter plugs and then put the cup on. smile.gif

[Dan Williamson]

>>It's really easy to lay them down on the Jenter plugs and then put the cup on.

That's exactly what I did with my Nicot kit. Its really easy that way.

I cracked a couple of the nucs yesterday and the cells had hatched. It was pretty cool to see the young virgins scampering about. Makes you feel like a proud papa. Removing the cells 2 days prior to emergence didn't seem to cause any problem.

[power napper]

Hey guys--this is a pretty good thread. Keep it up and I will try it also! smile.gif

[Michael Bush]

>The bees hadn't hatched the eggs in the jenter box

I should point out, however, I had to graft them from a different hive. I looked in the breeder hive and could find no larvae the right age. Which after thinking about it makes sense. The only eggs layed during the appropriate period of time were in the jenter box. smile.gif

[cmq]

It all depends on what time of the year you are talking about. I always remove my cells from the builder as soon as they are capped, from there its a short trip to a controlled environment
(incubator). During the cool days of the spring (& possibly fall) I hold the virgins till the last minute to protect them as much as possible from the elements. During the latter spring and summer my interval of introduction to the matings nucs will extend up to two days. A well reared queen from inferior stock is often better that a poorly reared queen from good stock. But a well reared queen from good stock is what you are shooting for.

[ikeepbees]

BEESURV,

Do you allow the virgins to emerge prior to placing them in the nuc or colony? If so, how much success have you had doing it that way?

[cmq]

I have done it both ways. I usually make a virgin bank then bring them in for insemination when they gave matured. Had good luck introducing them w/ "push in" cages.

[jean-marc]

One reason to introduce the day before emergence is that you'll end up with a high rate of acceptance. The tricky part is knowing just when they'll emerge. Like M.B. said higher temperatures can cause virgins to emerge 1 day sooner. Also did you graft a 12 hour old larvae or a 24 hour old larvae. Are you grafting in the a.m. and placing cells in the p.m.? Just a few things one has to consider. Virgins develop their wings on day 9 after grating. At this point, the wing pads are very delicate. Rough handling will result in virgins with damaged wings. Make it kinda tough to get mated.

Jean-Marc