Queen rearing? An idea.

[Donn Buchfinck]

Queen rearing? An idea.

I have been doing some reading about queen rearing.

I liked the idea of the Hopkins method from beesource, just take a frame of new eggs/brood create a pattern around the cells you want the bees to turn into queen cells then put the frame face down on the top of the hive with room under it for the cells to grow downward and then insulate the backside.

Then I was reading about the plug method last night.
Use a ½ copper pipe sharpened on one end dipped in boiling water, cut out the wax brood/egg and then connect them to the bar that it is going to hang from, then into the hive.
Once again I left out lots of steps, but I am just trying to summarize here.
I have read both and I am interested in trying both.
Then on the video you can watch on the web http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/02000018960220000000_lo.asx
It shows cutting a strip of comb and then into pieces and then attached to corks, that then go into hair roller cages and then queens, I like this, no grafting and no cups.

My idea is this. Cut a strip of eggs out of a freshly laid frame, plastic core and plastic frames would not work for this. I think wired frames would be a problem, The best would be comb that the bees made themselves
Lay this strip in a cut out block of wood that has a groove cut out of it then round holes on the other side. A strip of wood goes on the back to hold it in place then you flip it over then use a rounded off dowel to enlarge one cell in each of the holes. Then tie it with the comb facing down on a top bar or between two frames.

Photo’s of what I have come up with.

http://www.geocities.com/clayincal/queen_block_1.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/clayincal/queen_block_2.jpg

I played around making these today, I do not have the measurement for the size of the hole, and how close I can put them together.

The idea came because I doubt most beekeepers do not need to produce up to a hundred queens with the Hopkins method or the setup of the plugging and attaching. But just to go to a frame of fresh brood and cut a strip out of it, the bees fix the hole right? Lay that strip in the grove, alter the cell and hang it in the hive between two frames or from a top bar. If you let the bees make their own comb you could cut out a slot on the comb for the block to fit.

This could be made out of plastic the holes having a ridge and hair roller cages snapping on after the cell is built.

Thanks.

[Michael Bush]

The hole looks big enough that you'll get a cluster of queen cells. That works, but you won't be able to seperate them and will end up putting three queen cells or so to a mating nuc.

Jay Smith's Better Queens outlines cutting a strip of comb of 3 day old larvae and waxing it (with melted wax and a paintbrush) onto a top bar and poking holes with a pin to make a gap of two cells between each one that is left. That way the cells are far enough apart to seperate them easily. Maybe you could make something like you have but with just 3/8" holes instead of what appears on yours to be about 1" holes.

[Jon D.]

Donn,
So if I undstand you right, you have fabricated this "Holder" which you will put comb into, that already contains larva of the right age. Then you will round out the ends of the combs in the center of the holes of the "Holder". The purpose of the holes in the back of the "Holder" are so that once the queen cell has been built you can punch it out?

So it is similar to the Hopkins method, just you don't have to use up/ruin a whole frame of comb, just a little bit. Maybe one you placed in without foundation ahead of time to have the bees draw out, just for this purpose.

It seems like a good system to me. Give it a try and let me know how it works. If it is effective at all I'd try it too. It doesn't look like the wood "Holders" are too difficult to make. Good idea, now time for a field test!

[Donn Buchfinck]

I will remake the block with 3/8 inch holes and also use a rounded 3/8" dowel to enlarge the cell when I put the strip in.

The other question is how far apart should the cells be from each other?

[Donn Buchfinck]

I mean a 5/16" dowel

[Michael Bush]

The main issue of spacing (and other things) is being able to get the queen cells loose to put in the mating nucs without damaging them. I'm still thinking about the concept of the "template" or block. How will you detach the queen cell without damaging it? With Jay Smith's method it is easy to cut around it to get it off of the comb. I think you overestimate how difficult (or more accurately how easy) it is to just poke some holes in the bottom of the cells to get rid of larvae in the ones around the one you want to keep. It's not that bad. Also, you can pretty much just gently tear up the cell walls (as in the Hopkins method) around each one.

[Donn Buchfinck]

I was thinking about this problem today, the separating of the queen cells.

My original idea came with the idea of snapping on a hair roller cage and then letting the queen emerge then you have you queen.

I am just at the wood prototype stage.

[JDI]

I really like the concept. I, too, would always prefer to see my queens before I decide which one to keep. I would always prefer not leave this to the bees. Good luck, James

[Michael Bush]

A simple variation on the bees simply rearing queens from nongrafted cells is to tear down the lower wall on the cells you want. If you do this on unwired wax and you space these out the cells are easy to cut out of the comb. Then you don't have to poke holes, destroy cells or even turn it flatways. Just leave the frame where it is and space it a little more so it doesn't get attached to the frame next to it (crowd the frames on each side of the "queen" frame to the outside).

[Robert Hawkins]

Mike, sounds good. have you tried it?

Hawk

[Joel]

I think we may all be raising more of our own queens next year if problems continue as they have. I have a question about the Jay Smith method in using 3 day old larve. I am aware that if the bees make queens from larve older than 3 days they will likely be inferior. If you use that method do the bees immediatly recognize the cells as queen cells ( feeding wise) and if not wouldn't it be better to use 1 or 2 day old larve to assure feeding recognition as future queens?

[Michael Bush]

>Mike, sounds good. have you tried it?

Not on any large scale. Just a few cells once. It worked fine, but I have all the Jenter equipment and it allows me to do larger numbers with more ease.

>I have a question about the Jay Smith method in using 3 day old larve.

Acutally there are no 3 day old larvae. There are some 3 1/2 to 4 day old larve and they work well. At exactly three days old I find nothing but eggs.

>If you use that method do the bees immediatly recognize the cells as queen cells ( feeding wise)

If you have a cell builder PACKED with bees and with adequate stores of nectar and pollen, yes. If not, they won't feed them at all.

>and if not wouldn't it be better to use 1 or 2 day old larve to assure feeding recognition as future queens?

There is no such thing as a 1 day old larvae. At 1 or 2 days it's an egg and if you put those in a cell cup (easy thing to do with a Jenter and I've tried it many times) the bees will simply clean up the egg and it won't even get to hatch. Most of mine are four day old larvae (four days from when I confined the queen anyway). These seem to produce very nice, large, prolific queens. Any older is too old.

[Joel]

Michael, maybe I'm just being thick today, But an egg is an egg (not a larvae?) until it hatches on the 3rd. day, then it becomes a larvae, and would be a larvae on day 2 and three?(is the egg commonly considered a larvae?) Despite the answer to those questions the bottom line is we should be using a larvae the 1st. day it hatches, older larve will make inferior queens? I have never grafted larvae for queen cells but used other methods to raise our queens and was assuming that from reading (my possible mis-interpretation) if you did graft( or as used in this application) you could not use a larvae ( I thought they meant hatched, what a disaster this could be) that was more than 3 days old? It appears that my larvae lingo may not be with the rest of the industry.

[JDI]

I, too, have always called the egg an egg no matter how old it was and started calling it a larva on day one of larval life and, therefore, one day old larva, then a 2 day old larva and so on. Is this not the standard? Because if it is not then I have been misinterpreting some information in this forum.

Have a great evening,
James

[Michael Bush]

I start counting as day 0 the day the queen starts laying those eggs. Day one is a one day old egg. Day three is a three day old egg. You're tranfering larvae the first day they have hatched which is between 3 1/2 and 4 days from when the egg was layed.

I can't guarentee how everyone measures such things, but within 24 hours after the egg hatches is when you want to graft/tranfer/tear down the bottom cell wall or whatever you're going to do to create a queen cell. Later will not produce a good queen and earlier the bees will simply carry off the egg and not raise it. That time is between 3 1/2 and 4 days from when the egg was laid. So to me a 3 day old larva is one that has just hatched.

You don't graft larvae 3 days after they hatch. That would be 6 or 7 days after they were layed and way too late to convert it to a queen.

[Joel]

Thanks Michael, that clears things up. The critical issues of when and why you should use egg vs larve and age were my concerns.

[Grant]

M.B. wrote:

"There is no such thing as a 1 day old larvae. At 1 or 2 days it's an egg and if you put those in a cell cup (easy thing to do with a Jenter and I've tried it many times) the bees will simply clean up the egg and it won't even get to hatch."

I concur, and this was a HUGE learning curve for me to climb early on with my "Mann Lake" unit. I even wondered if the eggs from the cell donor hive were the problem, but then making one brood box broodless and queenless (nine days with a queen excluder) and introducing eggs from their own queen (after separating the boxes) didn't work either.

I was so concerned about the age of the larvae that I wanted to get a good jump by introducing eggs and not waiting for newly hatched/day old larvae (however you want to count their age).

As always, Michael, you've added a great deal of clarity to the rest of our befuddled minds. Thanks!

Grant

[Robert Hawkins]

Listen up Grant, I'm not befuddled. Just a little confused.

Hawk

[Grant]

Sorry, Brotherhood! No insult intended.

I'm often befuddled, frequently flummoxed, and perpetually perplexed. Which is why I continue to keep bees.

And yes, sometimes I'm confused as well.

Grant

[Robert Hawkins]

<flummoxed>

Yep, that's about it.

Hawk