Banking queens in a cell builder

[JBJ]

Can queens be banked in queenless, or for that matter a queen-right cell builder?
JBJ

[Michael Bush]

Not if you want them to build queen cells. I don't think a queen right hive will take care of them either. I've done it in a five frame queenless nuc (and none of the queens being banked used to belong to the nuc).

[JBJ]

Michael, I have had many grafts come out excellent while banking in the same unit, however recently inexplicably lost a batch of cells after they were capped and no virgin present. I think the age of the bees in the cell builder, and the fact that the bank frame was very full at the time may have been factors. If you can grow cells in a queen-right starter finisher, shouldn’t you be able to bank above an excluder in a queen-right situation; as long as there is enough distance between the bank and the queen and nurse bees near the bank?

[JBJ]

Correction, since I wrote that last post I have determined that the cell builder was taken over by a drifted in queen. I have had no cell hatch inside the unit, and they were broodless shook bees. I am still curious if any one else has had any experience with banking in cell builders or any type of queen-right situations?
John

[Michael Bush]

I never had a lot of luck with queenright cell builders. What do see as the key to getting a queen right hive to build cells?

[JuJuBee]

Michael, This is my favorite way to grow cells when bulk or shook bees are not available because they are easy to maintain and have gotten some incredible results, somewhere I have some digi pics of some fat cells with a very high acceptance rate that I can post later. Essentially I find a very strong two-story hive and find the queen. Next, I put her in a new box below an excluder with the original two boxes above. It is also very important to pay attention to where you put the cells in the top box, it must be packed with nurse bees and I like some open brood and pollen next to the cell frame. Lastly, I feed the unit plenty of syrup and protein. As time progresses and subsequent batches of cells are produced brood is pulled from the lower chamber and empty combs for the queen to lay in are rotated below the excluder. I have found that less spurious cells are formed with this technique and the maintenance is simple. If things are not going well on cell acceptance add more nurse bees from another colony. I suppose that two factors are at play with this technique. One is that the queen is physically removed from the cell building area and that there is a natural tendency for a super robust colony to want to build queen cells. If not properly managed they will likely want to swarm. What do you think?
JBJ

[JBJ]

Michael, This is my favorite way to grow cells when bulk or shook bees are not available because they are easy to maintain and have gotten some incredible results, somewhere I have some digi pics of some fat cells with a very high acceptance rate that I can post later. Essentially I find a very strong two-story hive and find the queen. Next, I put her in a new box below an excluder with the original two boxes above. It is also very important to pay attention to where you put the cells in the top box, it must be packed with nurse bees and I like some open brood and pollen next to the cell frame. Lastly, I feed the unit plenty of syrup and protein. As time progresses and subsequent batches of cells are produced brood is pulled from the lower chamber and empty combs for the queen to lay in are rotated below the excluder. I have found that less spurious cells are formed with this technique and the maintenance is simple. If things are not going well on cell acceptance add more nurse bees from another colony. I suppose that two factors are at play with this technique. One is that the queen is physically removed from the cell building area and that there is a natural tendency for a super robust colony to want to build queen cells. If not properly managed they will likely want to swarm. What do you think?
JBJ

[Joel]

JBJ we use an excluder in strong 2 story hives to draw out and raise queens cells. We don't do the level of manipulation as we put the capped cells in queenlees nucs or splits. I've never had swarm problems although I would suspect if a virgin hatched she'd be right through the excluder and the fight would be on. I think that swarming is more closely related to the crowded brood nest. I suspect the answer to Michaels question is the sudden decrease in queen pheremone in the upper chamber results in queen rearing. Just a theory.

[JBJ]

I suppose the ideal situation for growing cells in a queen-right situation would utilize both swarm conditions and a reduction of queen pheromone in the cell building area. There are really only two states that bees will grow excellent cells en masse, not including supercedure situations.
JBJ

[Michael Bush]

I've ended up using the floor without a floor (FWF) in order to make the top box queenless to incude them to start the cells. But other than that my technique has been similar. But I didn't have any luck unless I made the top temporarily queenless.

Maybe I'll try it again one of these days. smile.gif