Coupelarvae

[Jon McFadden]

Anyone using graftless queen rearing systems?

[Michael Bush]

I do. I use a Jenter. I just transfered 60 larvae Friday. smile.gif

[King bee apiary]

Hey Michael,what are the advantages and disadvantages with that type of system versus the general grafting type?I understand the general "no grafting" but can you give us a little details of one vers. the other?
I hope to start breeding full steam next spring,grafting with starter/finisher method.Have thought about the graftless method but figured I should start with something proven and have seen first hand.
Just thinking....

[Michael Bush]

>Hey Michael,what are the advantages and disadvantages with that type of system versus the general grafting type?

With grafting you can make your own cell cups, if you want and buy virtually no equipment that don't make yourself. You can even make your own grafting needle.

The advantages to graftless systems are:

1) Eyesight is not so big of an issue.
2) Coordination is not so big of an issue.
3) You KNOW the age of the larvae because of the queen confinement cage.
4) You don't have to learn to graft.

>I hope to start breeding full steam next spring,grafting with starter/finisher method.

I wouldn't count your queens until they emerge. It took me a few tries to get the hang of a cell starter. Then some more to work out how I was going to do my mating nucs.

>Have thought about the graftless method but figured I should start with something proven and have seen first hand.

Graftless systems are quite proven and a lot more foolproof than grafting. Grafting requires more skills.

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
Thanks for the reply.
Here is one site that has information on using the Jenter system.
www.apis.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/newsletters/Spring-1998.html#Jenter (http://www.apis.demon.co.uk/beekeeping/newsletters/Spring-1998.html#Jenter)
I bought the system Mann-Lake sells. It was originally made by a plastic manufacturer in France whose owner was also a beekeeper. His system is a copy of the Jenter system. I see Mann-Lake now calls it the Mann-Lake system.
Anyway, I was looking for someone whose brain I could pick while I try and get set up, again.
I had planned on building mating nucs out of wood, but I see they make little plastic ones now.
What do you use for mating nucs?
Regards,
Jon

[Michael Bush]

>His system is a copy of the Jenter system.

Any idea if the parts are interchangable? I'm having trouble buying parts for the Jenter system, but I have so much invested already I don't want to change systems.

[WG Bee Farm]

Micheal,
I purchase mine from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm
610 Bethany Church Rd.
Moravian Falls, NC 28654
Phone 800-233-7929
Fax 336-921-2681
e-mail www.beeequipment.com (http://www.beeequipment.com)
I don't know if they still have them, but they show in their 2004 catalog. I have two that I keep just in case. I have gone to grafting, because I don't have to cage the queen.
Frank Wyatt
Eden, NC

[Michael Bush]

>I purchase mine from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm

So did I and my second one has been on backorder for a year and everyone else I've called who lists a Jenter is out of stock. I assume the manufacturer is not shipping to the US currently.

[Rob Mountain]

I have been using the “Better Bee No-Graft Kit’. So far so good.

Order at http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=631

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
I don't know if the parts are interchangeable or not. You might try ordering a couple of items and see. Mann-Lake used to sell both systems and might be able to answer the question.
Rob,
The Betterbee system is the cupularve that I have. Did they send the useless instructions with yours (translated French)? I have some stuff I downloaded years ago when I was trying to get set up. Betterbee has a better price than Mann-Lake.

[Sundance]

The betterbee system sounds almost simple.

Is is possible to pull a queen from one of your existing hives for the 24 hours needed and return her??

[Rob Mountain]

I shredded the instructions – Put two and two together and Hey Presto.

I have done my fair share of queen rearing but just wanted to try this method out as I am now teaching Apiculture. I don’t like teaching on something that I have not mastered.

[WG Bee Farm]

I have a friend that purchased the Mann Lake and his instructions seemed lacking. We through out his directions, and I found an old copy of the Jenter and gave to him. He is off and running.
Frank

[Jon McFadden]

Frank,
I'm glad to know that the Jenter system has instructions. Is there any chance I could get a copy, too?
Jon

[Jon McFadden]

The Mann-Lake system has queen protectors. Can these be used to protect the queen cells from the other hatching queens? Is there a down side to leaving the queens in the finishing hive until they have hatched? How many days can they stay cooped up before being transfered to the mating nucs?
I will ask this question a second time. Does anyone use those little plastic mating nucs?

[Jon McFadden]

Michael has found a VHS video showing how the Nicot Cupularve system works. Mann-Lake, Betterbee and I assume, Dadant, sells this same system under their own name, but the parts all look the same. Here is the video Michael found:
www.beeworks.com/usacatalog/items/item196.htm (http://www.beeworks.com/usacatalog/items/item196.htm)

[Jon McFadden]

One more page with valuable information from Beeworks.

www.beeworks.com/MakingQueens.htm (http://www.beeworks.com/MakingQueens.htm)

There is also a 1-1/2 hour VHS video on queen rearing that includes the nicot system and 2 others.
www.beeworks.com/usacatalog/items/item195.htm (http://www.beeworks.com/usacatalog/items/item195.htm)

And the company that make? it:
www.beekeeping.com/nicotplast/ (http://www.beekeeping.com/nicotplast/)

My spelling: Coupelarvae
Correct spelling: Cupularve
No wonder I couldn't get a hit doing a search.

[Michael Bush]

>The Mann-Lake system has queen protectors. Can these be used to protect the queen cells from the other hatching queens?

The cell protectors will not protect them from other queens, but will protect them from being torn down by the bees in the mating nuc.

The hair curler cages can be used to protect them from other queens. I put a very small piece of crystalized honey in the cap for the queen to eat.

I have not had any luck putting the hair curler cages on without injuring the queen before day 14.

>Is there a down side to leaving the queens in the finishing hive until they have hatched?

Acceptance is better when introduced to the mating nuc or the hive to be requeend as cells.

>How many days can they stay cooped up before being transfered to the mating nucs?

I try not to have them in the curler cage more than a day or two.

>I will ask this question a second time. Does anyone use those little plastic mating nucs?

Not me. I use two frame medium nucs that take standard medium frames that I build myself.

>Mann-Lake, Betterbee and I assume, Dadant, sells this same system under their own name, but the parts all look the same.

The parts all look similar. I don't think they look the same at all. I would like to know if any are interchangable with the Jenter. If any one knows, please let me know.

[Jon McFadden]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, Michael.
You are a gentleman and a scholar.
I built 5 frame nucs for mating several years ago, but to me, the smaller plastic ones would take less resources to maintain and I could have more going at one time. I'll follow your advice for next year.
I also built a Floor without a Floor with an intergal queen excluder. I don't remember where I got the plans, now.
Have you asked Betterbee, Dadant and Mann-Lake where their systems originate? Have you asked them about the Jenter systems?
If I get a chance, I will do that tomorrow.
Thanks again,
Jon

[Michael Bush]

>I built 5 frame nucs for mating several years ago, but to me, the smaller plastic ones would take less resources to maintain and I could have more going at one time.

The nice thing about the two frame medium nucs is they take less resources than five frame deeps (far less resources) and I can consolidate them back into a hive at the end of the breeding season.

>I also built a Floor without a Floor with an intergal queen excluder. I don't remember where I got the plans, now.

I've never seen any plans, but I have pictures of mine here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FWOFFrame3.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FWOF1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FWOF2.jpg

[The Honey House]

Floor without a Floor is actually a Cloake Board.
This site has dimensions.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cloake.html

[WG Bee Farm]

Jon,
Jenter Kit directions.
Sorry for the delay. I found someone to assist me in scanning the pages of instructions for the Jenter System that I received 5 years ago. I now have them in pdf form. I have tried to copy them onto the reply page for all to see, but can't figure out how to do it. If you or anyone wanting it will PM your e-mail address I will send it to you.(or advise how to post on the list-I not very computer savvy.)

Frank Wyatt
Eden, NC

[Michael Bush]

I just called Brushy Mt. again and the Jenter materials are available again. smile.gif

[Jon McFadden]

Frank,
My e-mail address is n6vc@yahoo.com and thanks.

Michael,
Glad to hear your source is back. I found a NZ site that used the Jenter. He had graphics of both systems. When I saw the queen cups, I remember the difference. You can use the Jenter for both grafting and non-grafting. The Nicot only allows non-grafting.
Jon

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
Thanks for your pictures. Yours is basically the same as I built. One difference is I added a metal banded queen excluder to the bottom and added a
cleat to give a spot for a knob to pull it out with.
See if this link works for a couple of pictures:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/beekeeping/lst?&.dir=/Floor+Without+a+Floor&.src=gr&.view=t&.url=http%3a//us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_39335/Floor%2bWithout%2ba%2bFloor/Excluder Side.jpg%3fbcgIKjxBTd5FmRoq&.cx=150&.cy=112&.type=u (http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/beekeeping/lst?&.dir=/Floor+Without+a+Floor&.src=gr&.view=t&.url=http%3a//us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_39335/Floor%2bWithout%2ba%2bFloor/ExcluderSide.jpg%3fbcgIKjxBTd5FmRoq&.cx=150&.cy=112&.type=u)
Jon

[Michael Bush]

Very nice. I use mediums and I usually have the queen in the bottom box with an excluder over her and then the middle box is broodless and the top box is the cell starter.

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
I installed my cupularve in a medium frame. I'm still debating whether that is the way I want to go, however.
I posted a picture at the previous link of both the medium frame and the bar with the fixtures for holding the cell cups and the holders for both. I was going to take a picture of the queen cup holder off the fixture, but the battery went dead. I'll take one later.
Even so, you should be able to see the difference between the Jenter and Nicot systems.
Jon

[Michael Bush]

>I installed my cupularve in a medium frame. I'm still debating whether that is the way I want to go, however.

Whether what is the way you want to go? Mediums? Cupularve?

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
The question was whether I want to use the cupularve in a medium or deep frame.
Thinking it through, I guess it really doesn't matter. I can put the medium frame in the regular brood chamber, because it will only be there a short time.
I guess I will leave it as I show in the picture.
Do you have a picture of your Jenter?
Jon

[King bee apiary]

I'd like a set of those instructions myself if someone would e-mail me a copy.
Thanks.
trolan1@elmore.rr.com

[WG Bee Farm]

I have forwarded the pdf copies of the Jenter kit directions to everyone that has contacted me as of this morning.
I received one non-delivery.If you did not receive please resend your e-mail address to me and I will try agian.
Frank

[Michael Bush]

I don't have a picture of it. IMO queen rearing is much easier to do with mediums. You can set up nucs with less bees and still get to pick a frame of brood and a frame of stores for each. I still get two cell bars on a frame (28 cells). I can setup a cell building with eight medium frames and still do fine if it's crowded enough with bees and has nectar and pollen and brood. It would take much more resources to have the same assortment of resources for mating nucs and cell builders. I really like using all mediums.

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
The medium sounds like the way to go. Thanks for the information. I'll probably have more questions later.
Jon

[Dan Williamson]

I have never used these systems so my ignorance will be evident with my question.

What do you do with the box that you trap the queen in to lay? Does it go into a mating nuc? Does it push into wax on a comb? I'm not sure how it works.

Dan

[Michael Bush]

http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/queens.htm
http://homepages.uc.edu/~knauerbm/A%20Year%20of%20Honey.htm

Parts of a cell plug system (Jenter, Nicot etc.)

Queen confinement box. This has a removable queen excluder and cells. The bottom of every other cell on every other row is made up of a plug that goes in the back under another removable cover.

http://homepages.uc.edu/~knauerbm/images/jentercage.jpg

Cell plugs. These go in the back and become the bottoms of many of the cells in the box.

Cell cups. The plugs go in the cell cups. The cup makes the "cell wall" for the queen cell around the plug.

http://www.beeworks.com/usacatalog/images/sm-item101.jpg

Cell holders. The cell cups go in the cell holders that go on a cell bar.

Cell bar. The cell bar holds a row of cells.

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=332

Cell bar frame. The cell bar frame has a row of cell holders on it.

------------------------
Day Action

0 Close breeder queen in Jenter box with the queen excluder.

1 Release queen from Jenter box.

2 Set up Cell Starter/Cell Builder with: Nectar- Brood- Brood- Pollen- Eggs- Cell Bar- Eggs- Pollen- Brood- Nectar.

4 Transfer larvae from Jenter to cell cups. This involves opening the back of the box and pulling out the cell plugs. Plug the cell plug into the cell cup. Plug the cell cup into the cell holder. Plug the cell holder into the cell bar. When the bar is full put the cell bar into the cell bar frame.

6 See if queen cups are started.

8 Cells capped

12 Setup mating nucs

13 Transfer the queen cells to the mating nucs. This involves removing the cell holder (and the rest of the cell) and putting it in the mating nuc.

15-17 Queens emerge.

22 First possible day to fly

25 First possible day to mate

28 First day we may find eggs.

[Dan Williamson]

MB-

Thanks for the in-depth response. So I guess you just push the queen confinement box into the comb on a frame then seems much easier to me then grafting.

Dan

[Michael Bush]

I wired the box in an empty frame and put a piece of foundation on either side of it. You can't just "push" it into the comb because you need access to both sides. The queen and the bees need access to the front and you need access to the back.

It solves and simplifies these problems which are critical to queen rearing success:

1) Knowing the age of the larvae (because you know when the queen was in the box)

2) Transfering the larvae with a maximum of royal jelly left and without damaging the larvae.

With practice, of course, you can learn to tell the age of the larvae, but practicing with a box like the Jenter system you get to see what that age larvae looks like. With practice, of course, you can learn to graft well, but with the Jenter you don't have to.

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
If you look at the picture, you will see two wooden dowels. These were installed per instructions and foundation was supposed to be glued in place with hot wax. I installed the foundation as directed, but, since this frame was never installed in a hive to get pulled out, Over the years, the foundation has pulled loose. I think I will put vertical wires instead. I can heat the wires with current and imbed them in the wax.
One of the interesting things the Jenter instructions have is a guide to the larvae age by the shape.
I have problems with my depth perception. That's why I wanted to go the graftless method. It will be interesting when it comes time to catch the queen. smile.gif
Jon

[Michael Bush]

I just popped the cage into the frame (it fits tight from top to bottom) and ran some wires throught the top holes in the cage and wrapped them around the top bar for extra insurance. Then I used the wax tube fastener to anchor the small cell foundation into the remaining space on each side. I have no wire in the comb nor any dowels to hold the box.

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
If you look at the picture, the dowels are half way between the cupularve and the end bar on either side. I hadn't thought about placing them against the cupularve. That's a much better idea. The friction of the medium frame is suffient to hold the cupularve in place, too.
I drilled a hole, top and bottom to put the dowels in so they are pretty well braced. They just don't do the job the instructions claim they were designed to do. The wire isn't for the Cupularve, it is to hold the foundation until the bees pull it out.
Shucks, I might get impatient and try it this weekend. I have a swarm we vacuumed out of a house that is queenless. They're pretty crowded, too. Hmmm.
Jon

[Jon McFadden]

When I built the FWOF, I forgot I got the design from an article in the December 1993 issue of Bee Culture. I found my drawing where I had recorded the original source. Bee Culture called it a Cell Door.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/beekeeping/lst?.dir=/Floor+Without+a+Floor&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/
Jon

[King bee apiary]

question for Michael.I new to this so this may sound stupid but I need to know,haha

2) Transfering the larvae with a maximum of royal jelly left and without damaging the larvae.

Ok you made this statemnet but I need to know if you add the royal jelly as you do when your grafting or do the bees do it for you?Also if you add it ,at what stage do you add it ,just before the starter hive or just after the eggs hatch?

[Jon McFadden]

Here is a description of getting the cupularve ready for the queen's use.
It was written several years ago by a Belgium beekeeper named Luc Noel. lnoel@arcadis.be
Luc says, "There is a difficulty using the cupularve for the first time. The bees must build a comb from the wax coated on the plastic fondation. Lot of beekeepers don't luck with that. If the bees clean the wax, it is possible to replace the wax resource with a brush and liquid wax. Best is to give the box to a extanding colony having wax fondations to handle. As the box have to be fixed into a frame, you can place wax foundation around the box. The box's comb will be build in the same time that the foundation".
Jon

[Michael Bush]

>question for Michael.I new to this so this may sound stupid but I need to know,haha
>>2) Transfering the larvae with a maximum of royal jelly left and without damaging the larvae.
>Ok you made this statemnet but I need to know if you add the royal jelly as you do when your grafting or do the bees do it for you?

The bees have already put the royal jelly there and since you are transfering the larvae with the bottom of the cell, you get all the royal jelly with the larve.

>Also if you add it

I don't. I HAVE tried it, but haven't seen any difference.

>at what stage do you add it ,just before the starter hive or just after the eggs hatch?

WHEN I tried it it was at the time of the transfer.

[King bee apiary]

Ok an off the wall question here.
Does anyone make a small cell queen rearing kit? Have not measured mine to see if it was or not.
Just got it from Better Bee.

[Jon McFadden]

Cupularve cell size measured flat to flat is 0.206".
Regular deep foundation from Kelly's is 0.180".

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
When I took the cover off my cupularve, I discovered that I had drilled the frame in two places and inserted two nails in the two holes, cutoff so they were flush inside the plastic. I didn't remember doing this, but there are a lot of things I don't remember anymore.

[Michael Bush]

The size of the cup is probably the issue, if there is one, for small cell queens. I wax coat the cups to make them smaller and get better acceptance and to reuse them.

[Jon McFadden]

Michael,
I found my hair curler cages. Along with those I also found my original Nocot instructions. The really useful information is in French. One illustration shows the shape of the cell cup after it is prepared for the queen to lay in, and you're right. The bees close it up at an angle with wax. I wouldn't have noticed it, if you hadn't mentioned putting wax in them to make them smaller.
I put my cupularve in a hive to pull out the frame. I removed the dowels so the frame looks normal except for the cupularve in the center.

[n2dsky]

OK . . . with the Nicot system, what do you do with the cell cups that you do not use to make queens? There are 110 of them - I might only pull 20 cups. Can I wash them out and start over?

[King bee apiary]

Leave it in the hive after you pull the cups you want to start queens with ,remove the queen,replace the excluder,those that are left will hatch out and go about their duties,then the cell will be filled with honey.The next time you want queens pull it out and place the queen back in,replace the excluder and the workers will empty the cells of honey for the queen to lay in.It's always ready.You will have to replace the cups in the back after you pull them off for queen raising.

[n2dsky]

Thanks King Bee - but . . . what if I don't want to wait that long? I'm thinking about poping it into another hive using a different queen. I'd like to recycle quickly. Ideas??

[Michael Bush]

>Can I wash them out and start over?

I pull the cell plugs with larvae and eggs that I didn't use and wait for them to dry. Next time I put them in a day or so ahead so the bees can clean them out.

But then I'm usually running cycles of queens and I leave the Jenter in all the time, so the next time I'm putting it back in after the last graft and three days before the next time I put the queen in.

[Taliesin]

>I will ask this question a second time. Does anyone use those little plastic mating nucs?

These are very popular here in Norway. We have a very short season for Queen-rearing, and want to use as little resources as possible as not to inflict the honey-harvest.

These small plastic-nuc do demand less resources beewise - only need 1,5 dl of bees, and can be used for queen-cell after queen-cell througout the short season.

When a queen is found laying, she will be harvested, and a new, ready cell introduced.

Queens are most populary introduced here either by a bigger cage placed directly on a frame with brood ready to emerge, or in small nucs combines with the newpaper-method to a hive that is queenless/queen removed.

[n2dsky]

OK . . . so the queen lays up the cell cups in the Nicot box, I remove her and wait 3 days for the eggs to hatch - then put the cell cups on the cell bar and put in the starter hive. But the stinking bees keep cleaning out the eggs before they hatch. Twice now! I even put the box in the "likely been queenless too long, but no laying worker yet" starter hive - thinking they might be safe to hatch there . . . but no!!! So - what's up with these stinking bees??? I'm about ready to just start grafting!

[teen-bee]

Frank Wyatt

Frank I'm glad you got a copy on instruction on jenter. hope you could send me one too... my email is khernaez@yahoo.com.

Got a graftless kit from betterbee... hope the jenter instruciton would fit in to use the one i have. thank so much.

[teen-bee]

Taliesin

I used a similar nucs you mentioned made of wood i made myself. i think the name is kirchain mini nuc. I like it because i dont waste a lot of bees during mating stage of queen.. disadvantage is their prone to being robbed by strong colonies so i have toset it up far from my productive hives...

[teen-bee]

n2dsky

...have you tried inserting the cups into the starter nucs AFTER the eggs are hatched while still on the breeding hive.. i mean in its forth day after the eggs are layed so that it has a larva in it rather than an egg???

[Michael Bush]

>so the queen lays up the cell cups in the Nicot box, I remove her and wait 3 days for the eggs to hatch - then put the cell cups on the cell bar and put in the starter hive. But the stinking bees keep cleaning out the eggs before they hatch.

Did you wait for them to hatch or not? I'm not clear. If you waited for them to hatch that would be the fourth day from when you confined the queen. If you put the cell cups on a cell bar BEFORE they hatch the bees will always clean them out before they hatch.

You need a strong colony (doesn't have to be big, but needs a good density of bees) with the confined queen and then the box so they will hatch them. A hive that doesn't have enough bees may clean them out because they don't want more brood. Then once the eggs have hatched in the box then you transfer the larvae (not the eggs) to the cups and to the cell bars. Then the cell starter needs to be overflowing with bees. Like you can't fit any more bees in the box. It also needs open nectar and pollen. This can be any size box from a five frame nuc to a ten frame box, but it needs to be overflowing with bees and preferably queenless at least two hours, but I like overnight. This will be the same regardless of if you use a graftless system or if you graft. The timing of transfering larvae is the same. The requirements for a cell builder are the same. The bigger box will be able to start more cells than the smaller box but both will make good queens if you have enough bees and enough food available.