Bob's Russians

[BerkeyDavid]

I am starting a new topic on this. Bob wrote an interesting article in Bee Culture several months ago about his Russians. I copy his post below in response to my off topic inquiry:

Hi David,
Original Russian/Russians look great! Both Purvis lines look great. II Russian breeder queens still untreated also. One line carries a lower varroa count than the other two but no sign of PMS in any of the colonies. We have got cells from three varroa tolerant lines in the mating nucs. My order of Purvis gold line all came in alive and are in nucs in push in cages. The blue line Russians arrive this Thursday.

As I wrote on BEE-L the last 100 Russian/ Russian I received from a California queen breeder were simply Italian/Italian bees. By fall they were ate up with varroa. The yellow drones the queens produced , and my talks with the USDA/ARS in Baton Rouge , made me quickly realize the breeder was simply ripping people off. Because the queens were installed 2004 late I decided to remove from the Russian area to my remote yards ,treat with Apilife Var and use for honey production this year. I have got hives of bees which are simply Itlian or carniolan so not a big deal. I can't believe the dumb ass thought he would fool me!

The Purvis lines are the most varroa tolerant bees I have tested so far. The Russian bee was simply a test for me. I believe to test a line you need at least a hundred queens of the line to be sure of your results. At the end of this season I will decide if I want to continue with the Russian/Russian, a Russian hybrid or the Purvis gold line bee. The Purvis Russian bee is a bit fiesty for my taste and needs worked with smoke. I think a hybrid of his Russian blue line ( Maybe Russian/Australian) might better suit my needs and would produce hybrid vigor which would improve the line .

Last fall I ran two different tests on the Russian bees. One group I simply fed in a holding yard and wintered. In spring they were frugal and had a small cluster. I do pollination in spring so not interested in frugal!

The other group I moved into the Blackwater River bottoms on a sea of heartsease. They stored a huge amount of nectar & pollen and raised many young bees to winter on. Those hives looked far better to me this spring. My conclusion is that when the pollen shuts down the Russians shut down.

Other interesting tests I am working on:

13 yugo colonies untreated since 1993. Very inbred and only survivors which produce no surplus to speak of. I believe these are the oldest documneted survivors in the U.S. I would write an article but beekeepers would never believe the story so will share with you and you can do what you want with the information but the story is fact.

I looked through 23 hives in Florida last week with my close friend Horace Bell which were all that was left from a huge yard left untreated in Florida. Horace wanted me to determine if survivor quality. Although alive the hives were not thriving and we found signs of PMS in all hives. Not on all frames but if you looked carefully in all hives. I suppose the genetics would be useful but a true survivor does not in my opinion display PMS signs. PMS signs in my opinion show a hive which can go over threshold in a hurry if stressed or outside infestation occurs. I remove from the program once i see PMS but others doing varroa tolerant research do not.

Sadly many beekeepers (even some commercial beekeepers) still think they are dealing with early foulbrood when they see PMS. I ran across a beekeeper awhile back which said he had foulbrood which was resistant to terra. He had been burning frames and equipment with PMS for several years until I showed him the error of his ways!

Off to bed as the next two weeks are going to be busy with long days. Seven days away from home put me a week behind.

Bob

--------------------
Bob Harrison

[BerkeyDavid]

As I wrote on BEE-L the last 100 Russian/ Russian I received from a California queen breeder were simply Italian/Italian bees. This is amazing! Did the queens look darker or different than italians?


13 yugo colonies untreated since 1993. What is a yugo colony? what do you intend to do with them?


Sadly many beekeepers (even some commercial beekeepers) still think they are dealing with early foulbrood when they see PMS. What are the signs of PMS?

Thanks for this great info Bob!

[LaRae]

What is PMS ?


LaRae

[Fusion_power]

PMS = Parasitic Mite Syndrome. Has nothing at all to do with the human metabolic condition.

Fusion

[mark williams]

When a human has PMS,It mean's PACK MY SUITCASE :D

[Bob Harrison]

Parasitic mite syndrome is a condition named by Dr. Shiminuki (while head of the Beltsville bee lab). Can be mistaken for Efb, Afb, chilled brood and other problems by the untrained person.

Until two years ago we only saw PMS in advanced infestations of varroa. Last season we saw PMS in hives of average infestation of varroa. Samples were sent to England for evaluation. Three different virus were detected. One of the virus detected could kill a hive in a week the report said.

There is no known treatment for bee virus.

The Hot Zone" on the best seller list is an interesting virus read!

The solution to the problem suggested was to provide a higher level of varroa control AND to replace all PMS contaminated comb.I forget how many bee virus spores fit on the head of a pin.

[Bob Harrison]

David Berkey asked about the Yugo experiment.

I need to explain as I do not want the list to think I have got thirteen year old yugo queens which would be a record for sure. Let me clarify.

The Yugoslavian bee was imported to help with the tracheal mite problem at the time (late 80;s & early 90's). They look carniolan to me.

In a very remote area of Missouri in smartweed country the experiment was started. Smartweed country is avoided like the plague by Missouri beekeepers. Iused to buy smartweed honey (to sell to health food stores)from the old beekeeper. He is now over eighty years of age and has kept bees his whole life.

In 1991 he started with 35 hives of yugo bees. He was told to leave untreated (which he did) and raise queens from the 35 hives to replace culls and deadouts (causing an inbred situation). The project has dwindled down to thirteen inbred hives which tolerate varroa and tracheal mites untreated. Hives were removed from the project for various reasons.

When we cull down to about five Yugo queens I will select a breeder queen and cross with another varroa tolerant line which will create hybrid vigor and eleminate the brood viability problem. A serious brood viability problem is in the line now (checked last month) which does not cause us concern and only shows our hard work has paid off.

The above method has been handed down from father to son for a hundred years. Thanks to the old gentleman for doing the work for me.

The old man is a keen observer and goes on for a long time about each hive which helps with culls.

Dann Purvis is aware of the project and wants to try a hybrid.

The old gentleman wants me to stop the experiment and replace his bees (30 plus hives and not a problem) but not quite sure yet what cross to use.High honey producer or varroa tolerant.

His son wants me to haul his bees off when the experiment is over which I can do but hate to do as the old man loves his bees. They took his garden and his cows already. Next his son will want to put him in a nursing home.

Although the old beekeeper thinks like fifty years ago I respect his opinion and the experiment turned out exactly like he said it would.

[Fusion_power]

Bob,

Re the Yugo bees, the varroa tolerant cross would be the most interesting. Speculating that there are several mechanisms that contribute to varroa tolerance, it is probable the inbred Yugo's would contribute a new genetic linkage that would have very high value when combined for example with a good Russian varroa tolerant line.

There is one big concern with this though. Its also highly probable that the first cross will be varroa susceptible to a high degree. A carefully selected F2 generation would give high probability of combining the traits for a superior level of varroa tolerance.

Fusion

[Bob Harrison]

Correct! Might take awhile to get the cross right.
F1 with an unproven line is always a gamble.

[LaRae]

Where is Odessa? I'm in the Stockton Lake area.

The old beekeeper sounds like a real gem...very sorry to hear that it sounds like he's being pushed into a nursing home.

We are a ways out in the country too and I've been talking alot lately to the older locals about bees in the area and beekeeping methods used. The consensous is there are hardly any feral bees around here anymore due to the mites and pesticides. In the past 10 to 15 years you hardly see a swarm or even feral bees at all.

The experiment sounds extremely interesting. We are getting bees for the first time this month. Starting with Russians (2 nucs from a beekeeper in SW Missouri).

By chance are you a member of the Ozark Beekeepers Club?


LaRae

[Michael Bush]

I wonder why more old beekeepers don't build a long hive so they don't have to lift boxes and can still enjoy the bees.

[Bob Harrison]

LaRae Oddesa is east of Kansas City but Odessa is only my mailing address. I am miles from Odessa.
I am not a member of the Ozark beekeepers but spoke on varroa tolerant bees at their March 23, 2004 meeting.
If you are a member of the Missouri State Beekeepers I also gave a presentation on current beekeeping industry problems at the March 2005 spring meeting.
If you are interested in talking to me (also others on the list) I will be at the Powell Botanical gardens in Lone Jack, Missouri this Friday eve, Saturday (9-5PM) & Sunday (12-5) teaching beekeeping with a large observation hive I made myself.
Michael:
The old beekeeper(German) still prefers full deep honey supers and hand carries the supers into an old building to extract. His mind is sharp and he is in excellent shape. He is worth a bunch of money which his son will control if he can get his Dad relocated to the nursing home. Son not fooling Dad.

The old beekeeper is a dedicated Christian. All the checks I paid him for drums of honey through the years I made out to his church to send poor kids to church camp.

I wish I was not as busy as I am as the old man gets a smile on his face like a kid at Christmas when he sees me drive in. He can tell by the smile on my face when we look through the hives the long project was worth his effort.

[franc]

I tried the Yugo's in the late 80's and they over wintered poorly,swarmed or abscounded for no reason,produced Zero surplus honey this was out of I believe 25 queens.The brood was often spotty.Even the Buckfast or Italian crosses with the Yugo were worthless.I lost alot of hives getting rid of those Yugo's.

[Bob Harrison]

Franc,
You are not alone in your observations. Hope you had better luck with your Yugo car! Kidding of course. I have got a friend which has two sitting in a field behind his house.

All Yugo's were crosses from the start. F1 & f2 reports were not good back then.

I do not know if an inbred survivor of the Yugo line has value in a survivor breeding program.

Time will tell.

I talked to Terry Brown from Australia last night and am looking forward to getting survivor queens he has picked up around the world soon to use.

Will take years to evaluate these queens.

I believe Dann Purvis & I are the only two people in the U.S. looking serious into the survivor bee.

I would like to hear from any others but see note below.

Also a quick note to those people which have sent me emails with questions about queens etc.
I am putting in very long days. I will try to answer all as time is available. Sorry!

Took Terry Brown only a week to contact me!

I live in a rural area with poor phone internet hook up. I can hardly stand the slow conection. Drives me up a wall! My mind works ten times faster than my computer!

[Jon McFadden]

I went to Jester Bee Company last week to pick up my nucs.
I talked to Kevin about the Russian bees. I learned an interesting fact. Russian bees aren't a seperate race of bees. I had read some of the history of these bees when they were first imported to an island off the coast of Louisiana. The information didn't connect until Kevin mentioned that the Russians imported European bee races. Therefore, if you don't have a dark Russian bee, that doesn't mean it isn't Russian.
Russian bees are Italian, Caucasian, German and whatever else was available at the time.

[Bob Harrison]

Hello Jon,
I do not want to drop the hammer on you on your first post but need to set the record straight here.
I told Siminuki & Rinderer calling the Primorsky Russian bees "Russian" was going to cause problems down the road. Also not making those selling the Russian bee say if Russian/Russian or a hybrid when advertising was going to cause problems.
There is no such race of bee as the Russian bee but because the bees were imported from Russian then they are called "Russian" just like the bees imported from Australia are called Australian.

BLACK is the color for the Russian bee *if* grafted from a Russian breeder queen from either Glenn Apiaries, Charlie Harper or those using pure Russian/Russian stock as imported.

A lighter queen was sent to Glenn Apiairies from Charlie Harper in 2004. Lighter only means not jet black but in no way looks Italian. *ALL* the other queens released have been black.

A sample of the Primorsky queens imported were sent to Dr. Fredrick Ruttner (worlds foremost bee geneticist for ID)by Tom Rinderer (USDA-ARS Baton Rouge).

Ruttner classified the samples as A. m. macedonica (Ruttner 1988)and to a lesser degree A.m. ceropia and A.m. sicula.

A trace percentage of Italian & carniolan can be found in the samples.

I deal with Russian/Russian stock for the most part. I also run some carniolans. These bees are NOT carniolan. They have longer wings and different color body hair for one thing and there are other minor differences. Big diferences such as always keeping a queen cell around and shuting down instantly if a flow stops. They winter in smaller clusters than my NWC and also become honey bound unlike my NWC. I see this honey bound situation as problematic for the commercial beekeeper. Pulling frames of honey and replacing with drawn comb has been my only solution.

They are certainly not Italian like (I wish in many ways they were!)

The Russian Primorsky bee is not an easy bee for the commercial beekeeper to use. There are things I like and things I don't like. Things I have to do different to get the desired result. I am still learning. I might add I am not ready to switch the whole operation over to Russian yet!


Russian hybrids run true to color if grafted from a pure Russian breeder queen & drones are BLACK.
You get down into f1 of f2 stock which has been used to raise queens then you can get colors all over the place. If the drones are yellow then the queen was not pure Russian/Russian as released to beekeepers.

I know what I am talking about because a California queen producer selling Russian bees sold me a hundred plain old Italians as Russian. Not only were they not Russian/Russian they had no Russian blood at all. Apparently the stupid queen producer did not recognise the name and failed to understand I was using the queens for testing. The were the worst bees I ever tested for varroa . They were crashing untreated before a year was up. I did not pinch their heads because they were 2004 queens so I treated the hives which were not killed in testing involving varroa pressure and they have got honey supers on for 2005 honey production. The California queen producer needs to pinch the heads of a few of his Italian breeder queens as they lay more drone brood than any line I ever tested. Those bees actually would draw drone cells on new foundation in the center of the brood oval. He swears over the phone he sent me the real deal Russian/Russian still. What a dumb ass!
1. I told him when I ordered the hundred queens I was going to test for varroa tolerance and write an article.
2. I wrote about receiving his shipment in the January issue of Bee Culture.
3. Testing is complete. Should I write the article?
I do not use names of queen producers on the internet so don't ask.I guess I would have to in the article?

[Jon McFadden]

Bob,
Sorry to have hit a nerve. I was only reporting information as I have learned it.
Apparently you have more intimate knowledge in this area so I will refrain from expounding again.
Jon

[Bob Harrison]

Jon,
Nothing personal. Only sharing knowledge. Please post again. I did not mean to bite your head off! Sorry!
Kevin Jester and I are friends. I have traveled to West Ridge to pick up brood in the past. I knew his father. Horace Bell is a close friend to both Kevin and I.
I have got a close friend I mentor. He is a certified master beekeeper. He traveled to Jester Bee a couple weeks ago on my advice to buy Russian nucs and queens from Kevin. Very nice nucs with jet black Russian queens.No doubt the queens were grafted from a Russian breeder quuen as I am sure yours were. Kevin told my friend the same as he told you. I might call Kevin and explain better about the Russian bee as imported.
Kevin bought at least one (maybe two) Russian/Russian breeder queens from Charlie Harper this year. Dann Purvis bought a 2005 Russian/Russian breeder queen from Charlie also.
I have got 45 or so of those daughters installed. Charlie and I are friends and talk on the phone when the need arises. Charlie is the Baton Rouge Russian cooperator for the USDA-ARS Russian project and provides six locations for the bee lab.
I believe Kevin Jester to be honest and very business like. I highly recommend Jester Bee to the list.

[Bob Harrison]

The friend I spoke of above and I are traveling to Lincoln. Nebraska in June to take Marla Spivak's queen rearing workshop. When I signed up my longtime friend Marion Ellis acted surprised.

Even spending a life time of keeping bees ( I started as a teenager in Deland, Florida FFA with beekeeping as my project. Only one other beekeeper in our group. Horace Bell) you still have got many things to learn about beekeeping.
I look forward to learning from Marla in her workshop!

"What we don't know is so vast it makes what we do know seem absurd"

[Michael Bush]

>The friend I spoke of above and I are traveling to Lincoln. Nebraska in June to take Marla Spivak's queen rearing workshop. When I signed up my longtime friend Marion Ellis acted surprised.

I am in that workshop as well. I look forward to meeting you.

[Jon McFadden]

Bob,
Why would I stop posting???

I gave Kevin the information you presented. I won't publish all he said, but here is the pertinent information:
"..... He (Bob) is right about the Russian not being a race as I said and that their characteristics are definitely not Italian, they all behave more like the Carnolians. He (Bob) is dead wrong about the color though. You can tell him (Bob) you got your information from me and I got my Breeders directly from Charlie Harper. Last year the breeders were yellow, not bright yellow, but they were yellow and their offspring do not run pure black ……".

I've been a beekeeper for 45 years, but have always relied on mother nature with a little help from me to take care of my queen rearing. Times have changed and if I am going to continue keeping bees, I'm going to have to change, too.

Jon

[Rob Mountain]

Hey Jon

As Moderator of this section I say - You just carry right on posting. This is one way of learning. I get every posting on the Queen Section emailed to me and yes there was an error but honestly it was kind of an overkill to rectify itthhe way it was. One of the languages that I speak is Zulu and a very good expression that we use is “ Don’t pee in the river – you might need to drink down stream one day.

Proverbs puts is well, “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger”

Keep it cool.

Rob Mountain

[Barry Digman]

Those bees actually would draw drone cells on new foundation in the center of the brood ovalAaaarrrgh! That describes very well the behavior exhibited by my new "Russian" bees. They were advertised as Russians that came from someone in California.

[BerkeyDavid]

coyote

what color are they?

[Barry Digman]

what color are they?Well, they're not what I would describe as "black". Unfortunatly I don't have enough experience to eyeball a queen or a drone and classify them properly as to color and breed, but I think I would notice BLACK, as described by Rob Harrison above. They're not real light either.
As noted they drew drone comb smack dab in the middle of empty foundation. I have 10 started from nucs, but not all are behaving the same. Rob also identified the tendency to keep a queen cell around, which were very evident in the yard where I picked these up. In fact, now that I think about it, as we were inspecting the nucs the owner was saying that there seemed to be a very high incidence of queens being killed or superceded. (Are Russians more prone to this than Italian or Carniolan?)
As I recall this was based on the presence of queen cells. At any rate my "Russians" are a disappointing lot. 4 of the 10 are without eggs, brood, or a queen right now. Two are marginal, 4 seem to be doing fine. The brood pattern seems spotty to me in all of them with brood. Could be my lack of skill, bum queens, a screw-up at the place I got them, or a combination of all of it.

[Bob Harrison]

Jon,
I might not be exactly right all the time but NEVER dead wrong.

Charlie Harper is a friend of mine and we talk from time to time. We had a long talk about what he sends as breeders.

Every Russian breeder sent up until 2004 was black.Dann Purvis and I have got all the genetics released to Glenn Apiaries so far from Baton Rouge. Even got a 2005 Charlie Harper breeder queen but she is black. Got fifty of her daughters installed and they are black. All workers and drones are black.

Last year Charlie sent one off colored (meaning not black but also not Italian looking)breeder queen. Charlie told me that even though she was not black the workers and drones were. If you or Kevin want to ask Charlie please do. Drones from Charlies breeder queens should be black.

Charlie agreed with me about the 100 queens I got from California in 2004 as not being grafted from one of his Russian breeder queens. The reason for my phone call at the time.

I know what I am talking about when it comes to the Russian bee. At one time I had over twenty instrumental inseminated Russian/Russian breeder queens. There is a picture of me inseminating a Russian/Russian breeder queen (I am still using)on page 43 of the January issue of the American Bee Journal.
I have used many instrumenatlly inseminated (II)breeder queens over the years.
As I said earlier I highly respect Charlie Harper and Kevin Jester. With all due respect to Charlie, Tom and the Baton Rouge Bee lab I believe the queens Charlie selects for shipment to Glenn Apiaries come from an open mating and not II. If so could explain the light color on the queen, workers & drones. The queens now selected are not off the island but from the mainland. A rouge drone can spoil (or in some cases improve) the best open mating project.
With so many years passing since the import I doubt Dr. F. Ruttner would find the same DNA as he did in the original sample. I do suspect he would in our *black* Russian line kept pure by II.

[Jon McFadden]

Bob,
Sorry. As I said, I am only the messenger. Not my words.
My original post was to inform, not to cause a controversy. I was reluctant to even reply to your first response, but I still think people deserve to know the truth.
Kevin had a customer that challenged the authenticity of Russian bees he was shipped because of the color and I wanted to pass the information Kevin gave me to folks so they wouldn't be expecting dark bees as a certainty. As I said previously, I am sorry it struck a nerve.
Jon

[BerkeyDavid]

Bob & Jon
Thanks for the discussion it is very interesting and helpful.