varroa resistant hives

[silver bee]

Last year I got some bees from a house in mid-summer, then I split it up and they survived the winter. I have traced these to other feral hives and I belive they are varroa resistant. I am going to take out some more bees out this summer that I think are in the same family these have been in for 3 years now. I ordered 4 3# packages of Italians this year which I dought will be varroa resistant. So I want these to be varroa resistant like the rest. From what I've read I can take a frame of eggs and brood from one of my existing hives and put it into one of the package hives and remove the queen and they will make a resistant queen. But I also read that the drones are the ones who pass down the family traits. So I think that if I put a frame of eggs and brood in I should also put one with drone foundation with drone eggs and brood to pass down the family traits.

[Michael Bush]

Putting drones in the hive you are rasing the queen is irelevant. The queen will fly several miles to mate. There is no advantage to adding drones to the hive with the queen cell.

As far as adding a frame of eggs to the hive you want to requeen, they are actually more likely to raise a queen from their own eggs. Studies have shown that workers have a preference for their own siblings when caring for brood. How about making a small nuc with some eggs from the queen you want to perpetuate and and letting them raise a queen and then dequeen the packages and combine the nuc with them.

[bjerm2]

You can also get a queen rearing kit and have the queen you want to raise queens with lay her eggs in the cell cups. Then set up an queen rearing hive to care for these eggs and make them into queens. When sealed remove the old queens form the hives you want to requeen and then take these sealed queen cells into these hives.
Good luck.
Dan

[silver bee]

What if I removed all of the other frames of brood in the hive I want to requeen. would the bees refuse to use them or would they accept them due to it being there only chance or would they become a laying worker colony.

The closest beekeeper is over 2 miles away and some of these feral hives I belive are closer, would the new queen mate with the feral drones or my existing hives due to them being closer?

[Michael Bush]

>What if I removed all of the other frames of brood in the hive I want to requeen.

My bet is they will find an egg somewhere and raise their own queen from their own egg. But you might succeed. Bjerm2's idea of raising cells will work.

>The closest beekeeper is over 2 miles away and some of these feral hives I belive are closer, would the new queen mate with the feral drones or my existing hives due to them being closer?

The queen MAY mate with either, but they seem to prefer to fly far enough away to increase the chance of different drones than from their own hive. So the 2 mile away beekeeper's drones are just as likely if not more likely than closer drones. A queen will sometimes fly further than 2 miles to mate.

[silver bee]

Thanks for all the info.

What things will I need for a small nuc or a queen rearing hive. how much will it cost and where would you recomend to get the stuff.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

You could also get the package with no queen or remove her before hiving. Add the queenless package to a fresh frame of eggs and brood from your donor hive and let them raise a queen from that.

You should also consider that the ferrals may have already bread with the neighbors drones.

[Michael Bush]

Bullseye probably has the best plan. Remove the old queen and give the package a frame of emerging brood (to keep the poulation going) and a frame of eggs (to raise a new queen).

You can buy deep nucs from most suppliers. You can buy medium nucs from Brushy Mt. You can buy queen rearing kits from most suppliers. The plug versions that don't require grafting are convenient for beginners.

[silver bee]

Should I get the complete queen rearing kit from betterbee? If so is there anything else I will need? What kind of nuc will I need for this kit (how many frames and how deep)? If I want to sell some queens, will this kit be all I will need?

[Michael Bush]

I don't have their kit in front me nor do I know what kit you are looking at. Some kits are grafting kits. Some are graftless. Most don't come with cell bars (you'll have to buy them extra) most don't come with hair curler cages, which you can get by without, but you might want. None that I know of come with any kind of mating nuc. You will need much more equipment to raise any significant number of queens, besides the queen rearing kit. Probably the biggest expense will be the mating nucs. People use everything from a mini mating nuc to a five frame nuc for mating nucs. Personally I use a two medium frame mating nuc that I build. I build several versions. I have some that are four two frame nucs in one 10 frame box by dividing it. I have some that are two two frame mating nucs in one five frame box divided in half. I have some that are just an individual two frame mating nuc. The nearest thing to my two by four mating nucs is a deep version (mine is medium depth) from Walter T. Kelly.

[Hook]

I would suggest getting everything you need, unless you can make it. Some queen rearing kits come with everything. I don't have a catalog in front of me, but I think the one from betterbee has the cage, the cell bar frame, the holders for the cell cups, the cell cup holders themseves, and cell cups. That will get you started. You will need to have some mating nucs, bees for the nucs, frames, and drawn comb in the nucs. So if you plan on getting 10 queens in one shot, you will need ten queenless nucs.

I see you live in PA, you will also need to be inspected for foulbrood twice before you can legally ship in the continental US. And then you need special paperwork to ship to Canada. Get in touch with Harrisburg, unless you already have. If you are planning to raise queens for yourself, you should not have any problems. I would would suggest raising a few before you try selling any. Sometimes the first ones do not turn out the best. I graft my larva because I find it to be alot less time consuming, but that is your choice.

Other than all of that, I would wait until May before you start trying to mate queens. The drone population will increase dramatically once the dandilion flow hits. After that, there will be drones around until October.

Have fun!

[silver bee]

Thanks. I have another question, the packages come on April 15, and I have to take some bees from a house this year, could I take the bees out of the house first and use the comb to let the packaged bees make a new queen to make them varroa resistant.

[Fusion_power]

Silverbee,

It would be best to capture the colony out of the house into a hive by itself. Once established in a workable hive, you can split off nucs at your leisure. When you have nucs with mated queens, kill the queen in the package colony and requeen with the nuc.

There is less than 20% chance the supposedly resistant colony will produce queens that propagate the varroa resistance. This has to do with the drones available and the little that is known about the genetics of resistance.

Fusion

Fusion

[BjornBee]

Silverbee,
Varroa resistant bees, or feral survivor bees, are terms that alot of people are throwing around these days. I can not say specifically for your bees or anyone elses, but...

Capturing a swarm or doing a removal of some type of feral colony greatly increases the chances that the bees will survive the first winter. Even doing a split, which is sometimes called an "artificial swarm" in practical sense, is a great way to control or knock down mite levels. In all these cases, a break in the brood cycle, the drawing and increased activity of new comb building, and several other items all go into increasing the colonies chances of survival. That being if honey stores and other items are sufficient for survival.

I would hate to see every beekeeper who captured a swarm, hived a new package on foundation, removed a feral colony from a building or just happen to have a colony make it through winter for any reason, to start calling everything varroa resistant. Its already being done way too much.

Most observances of feral bees have noted that the first year success is very good. But by the second and third year, most are killed by mites. One winter does not indicate much.

I have a whole lot of bees that made it through winter without treatment. And in no way should I call them varroa resistant. (I also have a whole lot of dead hives right next to them.)

I do have some strains that are way superior to other strains. Thats the difference between 15% kill and 60% kill all being the same without treatment. But both groups would be hard pressed at this time to be called varroa resistant bees.

Just something to consider.

[Joel]

Keep in mind too that most "feral colonies" swarmed into a building or onto a low hanging bush from some beekeepers hive the same season they are captured. Most commercial operations charge to remove or capture swarms because they aren't worth the time. (although they are fun). I think Paul Brown out of NC Carolina made the best use of Swarms, newspapering them into existing hives and in a sense making and instant 2 queen unit population wise. He had some pretty high per hive production which was confirmed by the state bee inspector. If you think these "feral bees" are anything different than what you're using your kidding yourself.

[Michael Bush]

These neither look like nor act like what I was using:

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/BlackBees.jpg

The overwinter on half the cluster of the Carnis which overwinter on half the cluster of the Buckfasts which overwinter on half the cluster of the Italians. They are a bit runny and the queens are a bit flighty. They are wintering on less stores and building up faster in the spring. They are NOT like the bees I had before.

[Robert Brenchley]

They sound rather like A.m.m., though you can't realy tell without morphological analysis.

[Hillbillynursery]

I am sure my feral little black bees have alot of A.m.m. in them. Like all bees open mated I am sure they are mixed as every hive looks different. Some of the hives I have removed and caught swarms from look alot like italians but wintered well with small cluster and were very frugal with stores. With natural drawn combs these bees are dropping few mites. My highest number from these removed hives has been 3 mites a day last fall. The ones I have SBBs on have dropped none so far this spring. So I think between genetics and small cell the bees are handling the varroa mites well. I call them survivors as that is what they are. They survived in the old church for 12 year(3 hives so I doubt they all died and got replaced in the same year). I got these early last spring so they had a full season. And they had no treatment and they each had a full medium of their old comb. The old comb was put on the bottom and was removed this spring.

[Ian]

>>But both groups would be hard pressed at this time to be called varroa resistant bees.

I think the term resistant is the wrong term. Tolerance is the term I am hearing.

[db]

Hi Michael,
You Wrote "...The overwinter on half the cluster of the Carnis which overwinter on half the cluster of the Buckfasts which overwinter on half the cluster of the Italians. They are a bit runny and the queens are a bit flighty.... "
I don't think they are a.m.m., because a.m.m. overwinter very strong, not small (like carnis do) take a look at: http://www.apis-mellifera-mellifera.de/01ae2f93210d75704/index.html there is a picture of a.m.m. hive.
Sometimes they do not have as much brood as italians, but they are more long-lived bees. regards db.

[Bob Harrison]

I do not believe the bees are Apis mellifera mellifera as they are too small. They could be a A.m.m. cross but I doubt it as all the A.m.m. crosses I have seen have been larger than a carni.
The bees in Michaels picture are similar to a Russian/carniolan cross which is common these days.

A simple method for A.m.m. ID (or a A.m.m. hybrid) other than wing venation or DNA is to measure the length of the overhairs on the abdomen.

0.5mm long for A.m.m. and 0.3mm in most of the other dark races.

[Michael Bush]

More than half the drones have these veins (about 60%)

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/wingveins.htm

[Bob Harrison]

How many hooks?

[Michael Bush]

>How many hooks?

I assume that's addressed to me? I really only studied the hind wings closely. About 60% had just the one short dead end vein as shown in the diagram. The others did not have it. What do you define as hooks?

[Bob Harrison]

Although you refer to a drone wing.

I am interested in the number of marginal hooks on the worker hind wing. Myself and a researcher started about eight years ago to keep track of the number of hooks on the hind wing of many races.

Only two of us looking but have found a few interesting points about wings hooks. The number is not the same on all bees.

As for your extra vein. On page 136 of the "92" Hive and the Honey Bee you can clearly see the extra vein in the hind wing picture right below the wing hooks. The extra vein is not uncommon.

I hope you are not going to bore me with the story of a mystical little black bee found only in Arizona which was around before the pilgrims landed (as I have heard the hypothesis before).

[Michael Bush]

My bees are not from Arizona. They are from Nebraska. I was just trying to figure out what they were and whether they might be related to feral bees that others have.

I will try to get a picture of a worker hind wing for you when I can.

[WG Bee Farm]

There is much said about resistant bees: Russian, feral, Smr, Hyg.,etc. However; in my opinion, there are only bees that are higher in resistance.
If you were to put a hive of so called resistant bees in a yard that is suffering from high numbers of varroa this hive would take on sufficient numbers of varroa to fair no better than its neigbors.
But, if you have a yard that is all or a combination of Russian, Hyg.,feral or SMR; they will be able to resist the varroa better than others. This is not to say that they should not be watched (& treated), it is just that these bees should have a greater threshold than non-Russina,SMR, Hyg.
Frank Wyatt

[BjornBee]

I have inspected several yards not my own that had different types of bees and based on that, I would have to dissagree with WG. One yard in particular was a yard that had NWC and italians. Every other hive rotated between the two kinds. I would sugar roll a NWC and the ranges were between 2 and 5, while every italian (standard stock), ranged between 25 and 60. To say that taking a resistant strain hive and by putting it into a yard where other strains with mite infestation are present, and claiming they will fair no better is not what I have seen from others, or experienced myself.

[WG Bee Farm]

The difference between "a hive" and "every other hive rotated between the two kinds" is where the difference lays. When you increase the resistance occurence in the yard you change the amount of pressure on "a hive".
A yard that already has bees of higher resistance,
will have lower mite pressure, because of the already lower occurence of mites in the hives.

[BjornBee]

So this is your explaination as the comment that "putting a resistant hive in a yard with high infestation will fair no better than its nieghbors". Nice rationalization. I still disagree. Saying that adding/subtracting mite load/levels/infestation by purly adding/subtracting hives and averaging out mite load/infestation is a nice way of looking at it but its not practical or useless in any way in dealing with or looking at mite infeastation. You may increase or decrease the likelyhood or the percentages on some level, but to say they will fair no better is a concrete position that is totally wrong.

[WG Bee Farm]

Rationalizations are interesting creatures. They are formed from opinions, observations, and experiences. Sometimes they are not correct, sometimes partially inaccurate, partially correct, and occasionally right.
1999 All my hives were covered with varroa & I
treated twice a year as was recommended.
2000 I tried a few of the new SMR & Minnesota Hyg.
Learned how to approximate mite loads using
the sugar shake method. Still had to treat as
before because of high counts in the hives.
2001 Converted 80% of my hives to SMR Carn. and
SMR Minn. Hyg. After testing I had to treat
60% that fall.
2002 Converted all hives to the above bees. After
testing only treated 40%
2003 Bought out another beekeeper and dbled the
number of hives. These hives had not been
treated in over a year and were in poor shape
Percentage of treated hives went up to 80%
after testing. Started replacement of queens
at this time.
2004 All queens were replaced with resistance
bearing queens. Treatment went down to 40%
again.
2005 All gueens and bees are SMR Carn. & SMR Minn.
Hygenic Italians. I have not treated this
year.(so far) I have done random sugar shake
testing and found 1-2 mites per average of 5
hives. The mites will not peak until August
so the test at this time of year are not
trustworthy. I normally use mid to late
August to decide which hives to treat. I
believe that this year will be even lower.

I expect this because all yards have some resistance, not "a hive". In 2000 I still had to treat because of the higher loads held in the adjacent hives. I still expect to treat but only on a limited basis. I realize that the sugar shake is not a very scientific or accurate testing method, but it is what I like.(it is quick and give an overview)
With regards

[Michael Bush]

Bob,

Here's the picture of the hind wing of a black worker bee I promised:

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/WorkerWing.jpg

[Joel]

WG, thanks for good information. The way you evaluate and present the information eliminates variables like peaking mite cycles and such. I would be interested to hear how both strains winter and produce using the same type of interpretation. I've been looking at the Minnesota hygenics for 2 queen units this year(thus adding the gene pool to our current stock). Appreciate your methodolgy.

[BjornBee]

WG, If your resistant stock fairs no better than your worst in an infested apiary(with non-resistant stock), would you not treat 100 percent all the time, untill a level of resistance would be achieved that no treatments would be needed at all? The fact you treated some hives and others did not need treatment, proves you incorrect. If all hives are the same and no hive would "fair" better than the next(your words), would you not treat all if needed, or forego treatments. It would be 100% one way or the other.

[Fusion_power]

Some of the posts in this thread show a lack of knowledge of the method of spread of varroa. Here are some thoughts to work with.

Varroa tolerance is present at very low levels in the bees here in the U.S. That tolerance is usually NOT enough to enable these bees to survive without treatment. With enough time, the "survivor" bees will combine advantageous traits so that their ability to tolterate varroa exceeds the critical threshold and treatments are no longer required. This is occurring in feral bees but is being knocked in a hat by beekeepers who keep treating non-tolerant strains so that they remain in the breeding pool.

Varroa infests the susceptible colonies and eventually reaches a critical stage where collapse of the colony is imminent. At that point, many bees will leave the heavily infested colony and "drift" to nearby colonies that are not as heavily infested. These bees carry a huge load of varroa mites with them. If by chance they enter a somewhat tolerant colony, the huge influx of mites can overwhelm the tolerant colony. If the beekeeper inspects the somewhat tolerant colony at this stage, he will think they are totally susceptible because of the mite load.

I have seen this scenario play out in my own colonies. One particular colony I remember (from 10 years ago) was located 100 yards from any other colonies and the rest of the colonies in that yard were only a few feet apart. The colony off by itself did not develop much of a mite load for 2 years. The rest of the colonies carried approximately the same mite load and required treatment within 6 months. Please note that these colonies were on the verge of collapse by the time I treated.

Fusion

[Bob Harrison]

A big help when using varroa tolerant lines is to not mix varroa tolerant (Russians etc.) & non varroa tolerant hives in the same yard.

I told the USDA_ARS the fact about four years ago. They did write about keeping only varroa tolerant (Russians) in same yards in ABJ last year.

Ok to keep together and actually a help when you are trying to kill off fifty percent of your colonies a year trying to find varroa tolerance.

Not smart when you are trying to keep varroa tolerant hives untreated for the reason Fusion-power gives above. Not many hives can survive reinfestation from robbing & drifting.