Russians and mite resistance

[brent.roberts]

I don't think so !

This year I switched over competely ( 9 hives ) to Russians that came from the select bunch in Louisiana.

I wanted to see if their reported hygene worked so I left them pretty much to themselves all summer. I had of the VIZ plastic bottoms with thier tiny screened center. I was seeing some mites when I looked but these bottoms only have about 4" x 8" screens ... that aren't screens but plastic flat topped ribs... so not many mites fall through.

I removed them about 3 weeks ago an put in some Apinovar bottoms with full size screens and fogged with FMGO and thymol 3 times now. I'm getting 24 hour drops of 150 to 300 mites !!!

So much for hygenic Russians.

I think I'm going to have to scramble to save these hives over the winter with counts like that.

[Finman]

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Look at this. It seems not good for Russians. Be ready for handle colonies with oxalic acid or you will have troubles.

http://www.mamamoer.nl/ddb/blz/rapportprimoengels2002.pdf

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[BjornBee]

I'll just mention the obvious points and try to limit this as much as possible.

First Brent,

What were the mite counts before the russians were installed? Since you mention not doing much (which says alot about any so-called observations), it is hard to know what the natural counts were prior to treatment. I would suggest that many hives mite counts "after" an additional treatment or hygienic trigger mechanism being added, would have a initial mite counts higher than one would first expect.

The fact that screen bottom boards were not used all year long could say something also. In the report that finman points too, two main mite control factors are listed. One is the pulling of infected larvae, and the second is hygienic grooming. Expecting to have bees with grooming capabilities and then NOT using screen bottoms is not helping the bees to the fullest. Some might actually say 15o mites after treatments are not that high for this time of the year.

Are your bees just now rearing the fall brood cycle, which could show a spike in mite production, but perhaps at a level the bees have handled all year long? We will never know.

Many, many people have noted here on beesource that russians are not mite resistant. No bee is. What they do, is carry a increased mite load prior to failing as some other bees have been known to do. So what was the average mite drop or count all year long? Was it going up, down, or being maintained? Would be good to know before throwing comments about the bees ability. Up to this point I guess no DWV was not noted, and as of yet, no colonies lost.

As for finman's study reference....

This study is about as flawed as any study I have seen.

The study does note that the bees handled and were relatively problem free for the first year. The second year saw problems arise. The fact that study after study shows annual requeening a major factor in hive survival is something completly forgotten in this study. The study also notes that no drone culling frames, or any other management techniques or strategies were involved in the study. They basically threw some russians in the hives and based the study to me, on how long they could survive on thier own.

So, assuming your yard is only as good as your weakest link, requeening, culling the bad, or anything else was just completely not done in the study.

It has been known for many years that shade is a big factor in mite control. The study's own pictures show a beeyard sitting in the middle of a pine grove of trees. The fact that the study even notes that cold and damp weather was a factor only contributes to a study giving the bees many items to overcome.

The use of queen excluders and the studies own realization that the "mites transferring from dead and accumulating dead drones could of caused an impact" says alot. Talk about just defeating any natural mite drop via grooming by not having them disposed outside the hive. This also may of played into the hives not requeening, swarming or replacing failing or weak queens. Did the smell(also noted in the study) of dying bees cause a problem with hygienic behavior or even communication within the hive? Was housecleaning and other normal activity such as grooming inhibited or changed due to multiple factors and a number of un-natural situations thrown at the bees? Was viral and bacterial vectors changed by this accumulation of dead and rotting bees? With all this against the bees, and they solely blame a breakdown in the hive to mites. Some study.

The study does say that the first year, no problems with the russian were found. All were desease free, low mite load and survived the winter. Wow, sounds pretty good.

I also would question the use of apistan in the hives of the study, the use of old comb in evaluating the queens, and other unknown forces used in the observations. It is hard to evaluate queens and bees when possible longterm effects of comb contamination and use of apistan is involved. They certainly did not start the study with a clean slate.


My own observations is ....

Russian are not perfect. They do handle mites but use of screen bottom boards, requeening, culling of the weak, and other simple beekeeping management techniques would go a long way in helping the bees.

I get the sense, and this is my casual observation, but this study borders on the less than the normal amount of quality, quanitity, and experience in the normal study of this level.

This study is also 5 years old. Much improvements in localized queen rearing, selection, and other factors need to be considered. In both Brents case and the study mentioned, bees from other regions are recieved and evaluated, and some consideration should be noted as such.

I recieved many bees over the years. I can't say that all my russians or any other line was as good as promised. But after a number of years localizing the bees to the region, I have seen much improvement. And although not perfect, they are much better than the standard italian and other bees out there.

Last year I lost 26% of my russians and carn's. I lost about 50% of my italians. Both groups are non-treated and not fed. Which may account for some loss due to starvation and my not getting to all my outyards more frequently. Both groups number many more times than the study mentioned. I have lowered my yearly winter loss for 4 straight years. If I was to actually start beekeeping today for the first time, there is no doubt that russians and carn's are the way to start, and build from there.

Yes, I think the hype was a little much in promoting the russians over the years. And maybe the carni's could be said the same. But they are the best thing out there right now.

[Dwight]

Well said Bjorn!! I agree. I think if more Beeks would help their bees out by keeping them on clean wax over SBB's and with young queens in the hives that would go a lot further towards controlling mites than dumping all these **** chemicals into their hives!! And I prefer Russians but I think these good management practices would help with any strain.
I think we would be helping the newbees out much more with this type of advice rather than preaching feeding and using chemicals.
And that would help the industry overall!

Mother nature takes care of her own and given a chance she will provide the solution to this mite problem. I think all these chemicals we use probably help the mites more than we realize in the big scheme of things.
I also realize commercial Beeks need to show a profit thus all the attempts to find that silver bullet that will kill all the mites and the feeding to keep their colonies strong. But to all you hobbiest (Myself included) out there IMHO we will be better off to learn to let our bees feed themselves and learn to breed towards resistance and keep all that unnatural crap out our hives!

[Aspera]

I would also add that I am not aware of anyone reporting the mechanism of Russian mite resistance. As far as I am corncerned, it is UNLIKELY to be due to hygienic behavior as SMR/Russian hybrids are more resistant than either strain alone (this is very well documented). Finally I would add that it is important to distinguish between mite resistance and mite tolerance. Apis cerana cohabitates with large numbers of mite but does not seem to suffer much from this infestation. This is mite tolerance, not mite resistance. I have seen no research or comments from commercial beeks as to wether Russians display varroa specific hygienic behavior. What I have seen is much evidence that they can survive and thrive in heavily infested areas. My personal opinion is that this is due to unusual brood rearing characteristics and the longevity of these bees.

[ October 12, 2006, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Aspera ]

[dragonfly]

Dwight, please understand, there is not offense intended here, but keeping bees on clean wax, keeping screened bottom boards, and requeening yearly is not letting Mother Nature do her job. If there is to be a mite control method that Mother Nature devises, it will be seen in the feral bee population, not in the beeyard. Small cell beekeeping in top bar hives and letting what happens naturally happen is probably about as close as beekeepers can come to letting Nature take its course. This would take a great toll on the honey industry.

[brent.roberts]

Bjorn and Finman

Thanks for the comments and link.

I did too many things this summer to offer any good science to this.

I got 6 sets of 4 frame nucs from the breeder in the spring and put them into brand new Beemax hives. They came on old traditional wood frames. These were 6 month old queens that had been wintered in the nucs. A couple of the nucs came with chalkbrood that I got cleaned up in a month or so. There were some huge differences in the rate the hives grew. Some were almost stagnant and one other grew so fast it swarmed 3 weeks after I got the nucs. I requeened that one with a new Russian.

I also put the beemax hives on the VIZ plastic stands/SBB which as I posted elsewhere here, are terrible. Small screens in the center that to not allow for a good mite fall/capture. But in any case I thought the mite problem was low and the Russians were doing their thing. I was happy at that point. A few weeks ago I changed to Apinovar full screen bottoms with slide out trays and the problem became VERY apparent. So I started the fogging with Thymol.

I did have some Pierco drone boards in during the summer and they had modest mite counts. I actually took the boards into the kitchen and pulled out pupae to get an idea of how many mites there were. The mites were concentrated in the top 2 inches of the drone cells. Some had none, some had 2 or 3 mites per cell. Regualar worker drone on other boards had virtually none. Agian for a while I was happy.

The previous summer I had 1 colony of Italian/Canri hybrids and they had low mite counts and came the the winter very strong. In a positively stupid move I replaced that queen with a Russian at the same time I got the nucs this spring. I am so disappointed in the Russians that I may go back to the first breeder for queens next year.

I did introduce some small cell HSC frames and they seemed to like it for stores, but not for brood. I'm planning to isolate the queens in a super of HSC exclusevly in the spring to get them into small cells ... if we get through the winter.

I've been reading up on Oxalic. I don't like the idea, but if the mite drop count stays high for the next few weeks of fogging, I'm going that to try it. Fogging needs to stop soon ... fog when they fly seems to be the rule.

The best I can hope for is that the mite counts were not so bad and I getting near total kills of those that were there with the fogging. But I think that is optimistic. I'm new to the fogging.

Anyway, "not as advertised" seems to be my feeling now too !

Thanks again. I'll post more news after more counts.

Any other suggestions for consideration would be welcomed.

[Dwight]

Dragonfly, no offense taken. I agree with you. I was not implying that keeping bees on SBB's, clan wax and requeening yearly is letting mother nature take it's course and as I said I understand that commercial Beekeepers need to use the chemicals and feed to keep the honey Industry economically feasable.
My point is that I think mite resistant and mite tolerant bees are mother natures answer to the mite problem. In nature they wouldn't provide the large honey crops our industry demands but they would survive. And I think if hobbiest like myself who do not depend on huge honey crops to make a living would help the bees in mechanical ways such as SBB's, clean wax, drone comb insertion and removal and requeening frequently with local queens we might be successful. And it would be more beneficial to nature and the beekeeping industry if we were not using the chemicals. IMHO.

[Aspera]

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=2744&page=1


Page 10 on this link is the only well controlled study I could find with regard to hygienic behavior in Russians. It found a slight increase in hygienic behavior in the Russians.

[dragonfly]

Dwight, glad you didn't take my post wrong. I agree with you on the chemicals, that's why I lost two of my four hives last Fall :(
The only hive I have that I consider a strong hive was almost like a feral hive. I succumbed to treating it this year due to increasing mite numbers.

[BjornBee]

Mother nature would do something along the lines of casting a couple swarms off every year. Its that perpetuauting the species stuff. If the new two colonies survive, and the old dies being a "second" year colony, than the natural perpetuation is what it should be.

As a beekeeper who wants to manage a honey crop, control my genetics, and keep a hives going from year to year, then why is requeening not considered just as natural as letting the bees do it themselves.

Knowing a feral healthy colony will no doubt cast a swarm or two, and replace the queen as mother nature dictates, I would think that requeening, although not as natural as a total "hands off" approach, still seems to be in line with what the bees would be doing themselves if left to thier own doing. Of course with unknown genetics, and the future problems with AHB's, why would you think having the colonies requeen themselves a good thing?

My opinion is that swarm prevention, and manipulation of colonies to keep the same queen over long periods of time is just as unnatural as anything else you could do.

I think replacing the queen in feral colonies happens more than I first thought. Brood cycle breaks, young queens, and natural selection all happens on its own. As beekeepers we tend to keep older queens, try to inhibit swarming, and tend to attempt saving every hive we can.

This really is not directed on anyone in this post. I just have heard in the past that requeening is thought something less than natural. I can not keep bees and make a good crop of honey and control genetics while assimulating a feral colony in every aspect of what mother nature does. But requeening is something that mother nature does often, and I see huge advantages to it. I just prefer to control when it happens and by what method the queen is replaced. Thats called beekeeping.

[dragonfly]

I understand what you're saying Bjornbee, and that's the reason I said that letting Nature take its course would greatly impact the honey industry. For a hobbyist like myself, who needs the bees for gardening purposes, it is acceptable losses when I try to keep a hands-off approach. My only loss is in the money and time I have invested in the bees. If I were in this for business, and could make a profit on honey, I would be much more agressive in chemical or other treatments. I don't have a problem with beekeepers using whatever means are necessary to protect their businesses.

[gingerbee]

I'd heard so much about the Russians I was going to try them this spring when requeening. But after reading this I may just stick with the Italians, or maybe try another breed.

Has anyone tried essential oils? I know an organic beekeeper who swears by the recipie below for controling/reducing mites in his top bar hives:

One cup olive oil
One oz beeswax

Heat oil over med heat. stir in wax. melt with 1 tsp wintergreen oil, 1 tsp clove oil and 1 tsp ecupatlyus oil.

Pour into jars and cool to room temp. Take cloth, or hands, and on top of brood frames in middle of brood box, rub it in a circle over the frames, taking care not to get it on the frame ears for easier handling.

Anyway, it's an alternative to try for those folks who are "chemically resistant". smile.gif

[BjornBee]

Introduction of a foriegn smell is a great way to stimulate hygienic and grooming behavior.

Olive oil does make a difference over standard vegatable oil. But as to the trigger mechanism involved, menthol, thymol, clove or some other will do nicely. The oil is what is spread and coats within the hive. The smell is what the bees want out of the hive. Its foriegn to them and interfers with the natural pheromones of the queen.

[brent.roberts]

I'm further down the road now with trying to clean the mites out of the Russians and offer a few more comments.
The strongest colonly I have is still dropping 300 or more mites a day. The cleanest one is the only one that spent the summer on a "real" SBB with nothing on the bottom but the screen. No tray. That colony was droping about 25 mites a day for the first few days of counting and now is down to 2 to 8 mites every 24 hours.

Last year I had Italian/Carni or a mix thereoff. The breeder mumbled every time I asked him what they were. In any case they had fewer mites than the Russians. I fed them through last fall and winter on HFCS with HoneyBEE healthy. I did put in a couple of Apistan strips in late November but is was so cold I doubt they did much good. That colony, with HFCS and patties being fed, was huge in the spring.

I have no idea how well the Russians will do through the winter, but the biggest colonies have lots of mites and I'm afraid if I can't impact the mite population in the next few weeks that the outlook is not good.

I do "think" the essential oils in Honeybee Healthy was a contributing factor to last winter's success. Being a rank beginner may have brought on the beginners luck too.

[sierrabees]

Check out the drizzle method for oxalic acid. It can be done any time it is warm enough to open the hives and the studies show only a slightly lower effectiveness than the fogging method.

[Finman]

>Sierra: the studies show only a slightly lower effectiveness than the fogging method.<

Methods are a little bit different. When all brood are emerged mites are free and they are easy to kill. The drizzle method is alone very effective in my hives. But it depends if there are brood in hives when you cure them.

When you heat oxalic acid it turns to formic acid. It needs warm weather. Drizzleing can be done near freezing point +5C.
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[sierrabees]

Finman

Have you used the drizzle method on colonies with brood present? If so have you seen much damage to the brood? I have had to do that but because the timing was just before the queens started cutting down for winter I haven't been able to get a feeling for how much the brood was effected.

[Finman]

I have handled hives very late and without brood. That is the basic idea. Results are marvelous. I have had mites 20 years.

[jean-marc]

Brent:

If you have the Apinovar bottom board why on earth are you fogging with thymol. The bottom board you have was designed to treat with the flash method of formic acid. In my opinion it is by far the most effective method of applying formic acid. The bottom boards are somewhat expensive, but the individual treaments with formic acid are inexpensive. The other advantage of the Apinovar bottom board is the ability to monitor natural mite drops.

Jean-Marc

[Doctus Apis]

For me, choosing Russians for next year, the hygenic breeding is just one item in the growing arsenal against Varroa. There is no such thing as a perfect honey bee strain and the bees' natural abilities to cope with pests is one extra weapon I look forward to utilizing.

[brent.roberts]

Jean-marc
sorry I missed your post for a week.
I find the idea of gassing the bees with an acid vapour very scary. I considered the FGMO and thymol a soft treatment by comparison so I wanted to try that. I was getting pretty good drop rates but because I had the plastic VIZ bottoms on for the summer I had no previous counts for comparison. When the counts did not go down over a few weeks I did do a treatment with Ocalic Acid vapour (which I understands becomes foric acid vapour) and the drop rates went up 20X. The worst hive went from 250-300 per day up to 3200 per day and has been over 3200 for 2 days in a row. The half day count today (Sunday) was just over 1100.

This is a real treatment, whereas I now think the FGMO is only a preventative. See more details of the daily process in my post under FGMO.