A question for debate :)

[Dave W]

Why do "NewBEEs" ALWAYS have the hives that have ALL the mite problems?

Is there a kinda "Beginners Hump", a "glass ceiling" if you will, that EVERY new beekeeper encounters? The same problems always occur. On the "other side" of the “hump”, things seem much, much easier smile.gif

What is causing this difficulty to be repeated over and over?

[ October 09, 2006, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Dave W ]

[jean-marc]

Lack of experience causes most problems. I am sure that mite problems are encountered by seasoned beekeepers.

Jean-Marc

[Michael Bush]

Books that tell them you won't have mite problems the first year are a definite contributing factor.

I think the books either over state the use of chemicals or under state the seriousness of Varroa mites. If you are on standard foundation and don't treat, my experience is you will lose all the bees withing two years. Possibly within one year. I'm not saying you should treat without assessing the mite load, but I am saying that doing nothing under "standard" conditions is doomed to fail eventually.

[Dwight]

Dave,
In my opinion there are a couple of issue,s in this regard. First I think the Newbees panic if they see a mite in there hives (understandable). I also think they ask more questions in an attempt to learn. Combined these two things alone make it appear that they are having more problems. Also they get so many different answers that they are constantly in there hives trying this and that which is good for them to learn and gain experience but adds a lot of stress to the bees and probably causes more problems than it cures. In time they will all learn wht works best for them and what works best in their areas.
Personally I think we would all have healthier bees if we just keep young queens and clean wax in our hives and make sure we leave them enough natural stores. Many beekeepers feed so much sugar, soy and chemicals in an attempt to keep their colonies strong and healthy that it does more harm than good in the long run.

[Yuleluder]

I think that when a "newbies" hive dies many assume it was the mites. I was in this boat last year. As I looked through more material and spoke to other expereinced beeks. I found that more then likely the hives had simply starved from lack of stores. Mites are the easiest problem for newbs to blame.

[naturebee]

--Why do "NewBEEs" ALWAYS have the hives that have ALL the mite problems?--(Dave W)

What about beekeeping problems in general?

Simply put, it is caused by a lack of proper mentorship for the newbees. And a lack of the teaching of an overall balanced approach to the management of honeybees.

So when an experienced beekeepers ask
“why do new bees have all the mite problems?”.

As harsh as it sounds, he could probably find the answer by looking in the mirror.

[Aspera]

I have to agree with Micheal on this one. Many beginners have not been led to expect disease in their first year and get caught off guard.

[George Fergusson]

>Why do "NewBEEs" ALWAYS have the hives that have ALL the mite problems?

Well Dave, I don't think they do, they just talk about it more. Mites are not a "new beekeeper" problem.

Michael is right- the blab on the street is that mites aren't a problem your first year. Tell that to Longarm smile.gif

>Many beginners have not been led to expect disease in their first year and get caught off guard.

Yup. In my first year I experienced mites galore, both varroa and tracheal, PMS in all it's varied glory, sacbrood, chalkbrood, chilled brood, european foulbrood, queenlessness, and laying workers. I think that about covers it smile.gif

I like to think I compressed alot of basic beekeeping problem solving into one short season- a crash-course if you will..

[naturebee]

--Yup. In my first year I experienced mites galore, both varroa and tracheal, PMS in all it's varied glory, sacbrood, chalkbrood, chilled brood, european foulbrood, queenlessness, and laying workers. I think that about covers it --(George)

IÂ’m not in any way promoting any of the many variations on the saying.

But I believe that the original saying was something to the effect that “you are less likely to experience severe parasitic mite problems in the first active season with package bees placed on new foundation". Over time, the saying seemed to morph into several variations including “the blab on the street is that mites aren't a problem your first year”.

George, if I recall correctly, you purchased upwards of 15 or more established colonies from a beekeeper that I believe you mentioned that he had warned you that “they had mites and needed treatment“. So your testimonial as honest as it is, is somewhat misleading to the casual reader.

PS. Thats something that a good mentor would have been of great assistance in your beekeeping experience.

[ October 09, 2006, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[George Fergusson]

>George, if I recall correctly, you purchased upwards of 15 or more established colonies from a beekeeper that I believe you mentioned that he had warned you that “they had mites and needed treatment“.

It was 20 and the beekeeper I bought them from said nothing of the sort to me. They were represented to me as good healthy bees, and they looked good to me smile.gif When I saw him this past summer and mentioned that I'd lost 18 of the 20 hives over the winter he said "Gee they were fulla bees in June" and walked away smile.gif

>PS. Thats something that a good mentor would have been of great assistance in your beekeeping experience.

Agreed, but good mentors are hard to come by around here. Beesource, a digital camera, and a good set of observational and analytical skills had to suffice.

>But I believe that the saying was to the effect that “you are less likely to experience severe parasitic mite problems in the first active season with package bees placed on new foundation".

I agree, but lots of new beekeepers seem to start out with a hive or 2 from a local beekeeper on drawn, perhaps contaminated comb, or a swarm that turns up in their yard and are quite likely to encounter problems the first year they weren't expecting. Even if they start with a package, they may not be able to count on a season of problem-free beekeeping. Time was you could, but not any more. You're just as likely to get varroa in good quantity, SHB, poor or failing queens, chalkbrood, etc.

I also got 6 nucs my first spring and 1 of them had chalkbrood so badly and a weak enough population that I put them back in a 5 frame nuc for nearly a month before I finally hived them- this on the advice of the good people here on Beesource. That hive by the way is doing fine this year.

[naturebee]

>George, if I recall correctly, you purchased upwards of 15 or more established colonies from a beekeeper that I believe you mentioned that he had warned you that “they had mites and needed treatment“.--(Joe)

--It was 20 and the beekeeper I bought them from said nothing of the sort to me. They were represented to me as good healthy bees, and they looked good to me When I saw him this past summer and mentioned that I'd lost 18 of the 20 hives over the winter he said "Gee they were fulla bees in June" and walked away --(George)

As a beekeeper, you develop this 6th sense that tells me he turned “and walked away” because he was afraid you would ‘rightly so’ ask for your money back.

Anyhow, in June of 2005 on organicbeekeepers list you did say:

“These 20 new hives I got Friday are apparently healthy, but I haven't gone
through them yet. According to the beekeeper I got them from, he treated
all his hives with Oxalic Acid early this spring and "finally got rid" of
varroa. That said, when we were going through them (quickly, a cursory
peek) last week, we dug out a few drone larva and found a couple of mites
but I'm assuming that for now at least, varroa are at minimal levels.”

I realize that a beginner would not have this knowledge. But anytime that varroa levels in the spring require treatment, that is an indication that severe problems exist in the colonies. And also, stop gap treatments never “get rid” of varroa as the guy claims happened.

--Agreed, but good mentors are hard to come by around here. Beesource, a digital camera, and a good set of observational and analytical skills had to suffice.--(George)

Know what ya mean, I learned from the seat of my pants also. The mentors here were out to nickel and dime new bees to death, so I avoided them.

--I agree, but lots of new beekeepers seem to start out with a hive or 2 from a local beekeeper on drawn, perhaps contaminated comb, or a swarm that turns up in their yard and are quite likely to encounter problems the first year they weren't expecting.--(George)

A good mentor will tell you: “You should never, not expect anything.”

ThatÂ’s why I show the newbees that I mentor how to read the bees, and let the bees tell you what to expect. And I must say that I was very impressed this year with my mentoring newbees abilities to effectively diagnose problems ahead of me showing them the problem. The approach of teaching newbees to read the bees seems far more effective than the reactionary approach often thought by the treatment proponents in routinely slapping in treatments without any consideration to the performance level of the colony.

--Even if they start with a package, they may not be able to count on a season of problem-free beekeeping. Time was you could, but not any more. You're just as likely to get varroa in good quantity, SHB, poor or failing queens, chalkbrood, etc.--(George)

Yup! I gave a new bee a late cutout last season. I showed him how to set up the nest to aid in the smooth transition of a small cluster across the frames. Even though the cluster was small, reading the bees revealed they were extremely healthy, but I told the newbee they have a 50 50 chance of making it due to the small cluster. Well, the bees made it and at 1 year this newbee is diagnosing his own honeybee problems, I just stand there and watch and make occasional comments.

--I also got 6 nucs my first spring and 1 of them had chalkbrood so badly and a weak enough population that I put them back in a 5 frame nuc for nearly a month before I finally hived them- this on the advice of the good people here on Beesource. That hive by the way is doing fine this year.--(George)

I wonÂ’t argue the fact that that advice may have helped you solve the problem for this particular hive. I will say however, that without reading the bees, it is difficult to say weather or not it was in fact the best thing to do. Only a hands on mentor, or ability to effectively read the bees can tell that for sure. Many procedures will give the desired results, doing the things most prudent will give the optimal results. It is extremely difficult to know weather the advice given on these lists is actually the best advice, even mediocre advice will sometimes give what seems to be the desired results.

[George Fergusson]

>According to the beekeeper I got them from, he treated all his hives with Oxalic Acid early this spring and "finally got rid" of varroa.

There's no question he represented them to me as healthy hives without a significant mite problem. As a brand newbee, how was I to know?

In any case, lest anyone think I am complaining, let me assure you I'm not. I have absolutely no regrets surrounding my first year of beekeeping. I learned a great deal. I do not dwell on the past, nor do I close the door on it.

>A good mentor will tell you: “You should never, not expect anything.”

What, you mean speak in double negatives? smile.gif

>I will say however, that without reading the bees, it is difficult to say weather or not it was in fact the best thing to do.

In this particular case, looking back, I am confident that the advice I received was good advice. There were 4 frames of bees in that 5 frame nuc and the weather was a typical May in Maine- cold, wet. Leaving 4 frames of bees in a 10 frame box wasn't the right thing to do.

Regardless, I have to agree about the possibility, but not the liklihood, of receiving bad advice or at least not really good advice on this and other forums. The problem is typically well-intentioned but inexperienced people like me parroting what they have heard which may or may not be relevant or correct advice for the given situation. Fortunately, there is usually enough input from other people so that outright wrong information or advice is discussed and corrected. From this we all learn.

Unless I know something from my own experience, I try to be careful to preface what I say with "I have heard" or "I have been told" or else refrain altogether from offering an opinion.

Gotta run.

[naturebee]

--In this particular case, looking back, I am confident that the advice I received was good advice. There were 4 frames of bees in that 5 frame nuc and the weather was a typical May in Maine- cold, wet. Leaving 4 frames of bees in a 10 frame box wasn't the right thing to do.--(George)

I remember the conversation, but I will tell you that from my experience, 4 frames of bees are perfectly capable of keeping warm and expanding naturally on itÂ’s own and there was no need to do the procedure. Think about it, this is larger than some clusters come out of winter!! Being in the nuc for a month, IMO most likely held back the cluster from itÂ’s full potential in spring expansion. But if there is an illusion in the mind of a newbee that a procedure actually worked, I know that it is hard to convince a new bee that the procedure was not the cause of why it seemed to work.

The problem is, that the extreme desire for some members to say something, ‘anything’ to try and help and input something often leads to suggesting procedures that are not really necessarily and therefore would have obtained the desired results weather they were implemented or not, thus leading to the assumption that the unnecessary procedure worked.

--Fortunately, there is usually enough input from other people so that outright wrong information or advice is discussed and corrected. From this we all learn.--(Geroge)

This is usually true, but you do have the bandwagon type members on the lists. They can be identified with a propensity to write original statements like “I’m with so and so” ect. Instead of writing content that supports their thoughts.

You also have some new bees on the bandwagons with one week to three years under their belt posting letters, and no way for the reader to tell what the experience of the poster is. IÂ’ve seen good advice on this list from experienced beekeepers occasionally get obliterated by nay voices from new bees portraying more experience than they actually have.

[tecumseh]

dave w ask:
Why do "NewBEEs" ALWAYS have the hives that have ALL the mite problems?

tecumseh replies:
my thinking at this time is psychological (sp???) stress created by inappropriate actions of a new bee keeper.

psychological stess is a fairly common idea in animal husbandry and pet circles. let me just say that animal health problem where multiple factors are in play (and typically with a large or significant nutrition component) are considered to be psychological in nature.

the yuleluder adds:
I think that when a "newbies" hive dies many assume it was the mites. I was in this boat last year. As I looked through more material and spoke to other expereinced beeks. I found that more then likely the hives had simply starved from lack of stores. Mites are the easiest problem for newbs to blame.

tecumseh replies:
exactly correct and a fine example of inaction by a new bee keeper. 5 will get you 10 that more hives die yearly in the US from stravation than from mites and more will die from fire (most often started by the bee keeper's smoker) than will die from mites. the latter being intentional, since fire is an excellent method of controlling the mite population in a hive.... right?

[Dave W]

I am glad George came to this thread. He has "thick skin" and a polite tone; I like that smile.gif , so letÂ’s talk about him.

His situation is an EXACT example of my question.
During his first year, he had experiences that some never have in 10 years. His mite problem may have been extreme (he lost 18 out of 20 hives to mites), but why have things changed? (Now has a couple of hives that are thriving)

George . . . Please, don't use this opportunity to tell us how GOOD you are smile.gif

Lets look at anotherÂ’s' situation. Longarm has a hive thatÂ’s typical of what we hear other NeeBEEs describe; more mites than bees. He also has a hive that may not have "any" mites.

Is there a way we could start NewBEEs w/ the 2 hives George has now? What if Longarm had experienced only his good hive?

[Jim Fischer]

My view is that the new beekeeper has unreasonable
expectations, many of them due to the comments
made in online forums. smile.gif

Any new colony (package, split, nuc, hived
swarm) lacks "critial mass". There are not
enough bees, not enough drawn frames, not
enough stores. A new colony that has not
yet reached "critical mass" is a welfare
receipient, and needs support. Once it
reaches "critical mass", it can then support
itself, and produce excess honey, pollen, wax,
and bees for the beekeeper's purposes.

I guess you could say that hives are like
fusion reactors, in that one has to put a
lot of energy into the darn things to get
them going, and you can't skimp if you want
to ever see an actual fusion reaction.

A newly-established colony has to do a lot of
things all at the same time, and all dependent
upon all the OTHER things being done correctly.

They have to draw comb, and this requires lots of
nectar, but they have few forgagers (assuming that
we have a package or split here), and until they
draw comb, they have little storage. Catch-22

They need to raise brood, and this requires lots
of nectar and pollen, and requires drawn comb,
all assumed to be in short supply. To make
matters worse, the bees that care for the brood
must also be fed, and so on. Catch-22 again.

A run of days with bad weather can send a colony
like the one described above to the brink of
starvation in a matter of days, as they simply
do not have any significant stores, nor do they
have the storage space to store any stores, nor
can they run down to the store.

So, new beekeeers need to buy, beg, or borrow as
much pre-drawn comb as they can from others, and
slap feeders on their hives from initial set-up
until fall, letting the bees draw additional
comb, build up their population, and otherwise
prepare for winter.

And when I say feeder, I mean one that you can
keep full 24x7, which means a hive-top 4 or 5
gallon unit, NOT the puny little entrance feeders,
not the bee-killing in-hive feeders, not the
1-gallon pails, and not the 1-gal poultry feeders.
You just spent nearly $100 on woodenware, and
likely $40 to $60 on bees, so don't tell me that
you can't lay out another $20 on a decent feeder
that holds enough to keep the bees fed between
the points when you can refill it.

If you have ever found a feeder to be empty
when you got around to checking it, then you
also need a bigger feeder. Sure, you can kick
yourself all over the apiary, and promise yourself
that you will check more often, but from my point
of view, the beekeeper is not to be blamed for
trusting a product that is "Broken As Designed",
or "B.A.D." Any feeder that goes empty in less
than 2 days is "broken", and everyone has seen
hives suck down 2 gallons in two days.

There may be exceptions, but for the typical
"newbee" with a newly-established colony or
three, there simply is no first-year harvest.
This removes some of the pressure
for "eary queens", and makes life easier for
the colony getting established. One must admit
that the optimal time to start a new colony is
when established colonies are swarming, not
when the bees must cluster at night (yet another
thing that colonies with limited drawn comb
just can't do well).

Mites and queenlessness and everything else
that can go wrong can be laid at the feet of
the package or nuc supplier. New beekeepers
need "clean" bees, not diseased and infested
bees.

But trying to start beekeeping without
going to your local bee association meetings,
without having another beekeeper work your
hives with you, with only the online groups to
guide you, is a very poor way to learn (digital
cameras make communication slightly easier, but
nothing beats hands-on, face-to-face beekeeping).

So, get some drawn comb, get a big feeder, get
a mentor. smile.gif

[ScadsOBees]

Unreasonable expectations or a hungry optimism (or an optimistic delusion)? smile.gif

I guess it is one and the same...I figured I'd set up my hives, get them going, and "Show me the Honey!".

Lack of information to start out with. Then when one finally realizes the problem and gets online it is an overwhelming sea of ideas. When pondering the 2,549 treatments for mites, the easiest is to let it be and see what happens. And if I settle on an idea, when I get out there and start to try it out, everything changes again.

As far as mentors go...there are plenty of bad ones. If I followed my mentor, I'd be using a strict regiment terramycin and apistan, honey supers on or not. Once I get online those are mostly anathema, so I've spent a lot of time finding other better ways. But it takes a while to understand the ideas and understand how to implement the ideas one settles on.

-rick

[George Fergusson]

>George . . . Please, don't use this opportunity to tell us how GOOD you are

Golly. OK smile.gif As for being thick-skinned, just ask Jim Fischer how thick my skin is smile.gif

I have learned a great deal but what I know is eclipsed by what still have to learn. It's not about being good, it's about being observant and applying what I've already learned to what I encounter. It's about experimenting and observing the results and concluding what worked and what didn't work. I learned a lot in a hurry last year. I continued to learn more this year. I expect to learn more next year, and the year after that. The more I learn, the less likely it will be that I encounter a situation that I don't know how to handle. I make mistakes, but I learn from them and pride myself on not making the same mistake twice. Usually.

So here's season two, in a nutshell:

I encountered queenlessness a few times this year, no where near as much as I did last year. Mostly luck probably. Last year I bought a dozen queens and accidentally killed 2-3 of them and none of those hives made it through the winter. This year I didn't buy any queens, instead I raised 8-10 and didn't kill any of them smile.gif I learned why people recommend grafting for serious queen rearing over the so-called "easy" graftless methods- because the bees won't always cooperate when you want them to, know what I mean? I learned how to graft, but not well. More of that next year! I learned how to use a swarm box and Cloak board. Last year I didn't know what a cloak board was.

This summer one of my nucs developed laying workers, that was interesting. It only took about 3 weeks! Anyways, I dealt with it. Last year I caught a swarm and combined it with a laying worker hive and lost both of them smile.gif Last year I bought lots of hives, all of them actually. This year I bought 2 nucs and 1 package and I only bought the package because I'd never tried a package and wanted to see what it was like. Last year I caught one swarm. This year I caught 5 or was it 6? I started the season with 6 hives. I have 16 now plus 2 double 4 frame nucs I'm goint to winter over as per Mike Palmer's method. Also have 2 single deep hives- late summer swarms that I decided I'd try to winter over as is- they'll either make it or they won't and I won't know till I try, might succeed, might not. We'll see.

Last year I fed out almost 1000 pounds of sugar. This year I've gone through about about 200 pounds. Last year I robbed 50 pounds of honey, this year I actually made about 100 pounds of surplus. I was about to extract it when some friends of mine who took up beekeeping last spring decided beekeeping wasn't their bag afterall and they offered me their hives. One was a single deep full of italians. I gave that hive both my supers smile.gif

Last year I had a mite problem and a good deal of disease to contend with. This year I still have a mite problem but a lot less disease smile.gif I learned how to do sugar shakes. I've kept track of my mite fall. I haven't freaked out. I'm better prepared for them and I know what to look for. I don't expect to lose any hives to mites this winter. I hope. I expect I'll lose a few hives, possibly to tracheal mites as I've got one hive that has a tracheal mite problem. I've requeened it and it's looking better. We'll see.

Last year I felt overwhelmed and stressed out, running around like a chicken with my head cut off while my hives crashed. This year I enjoyed almost every minute of tending my bees. Last year I bothered them constantly. This year I bothered them as little as possible.

So, am I good or just lucky? I think I'm lucky, it will be a long time before I consider myself "good". In any case, I'm learning beekeeping, which is the whole idea isn't it?

George-

[tecumseh]

george ferguson adds:
Last year I bothered them constantly. This year I bothered them as little as possible.

tecumseh replies:
ya' know george last year I was just certain you were a bee keeper with lots of experience under your belt... and here ya' were still wet behind the ears. likely not the first and hopefully not the last mistake I have made.

still a nice story. you have come quite some distance in a very short time. my hat is off to ya... bro.

I do think my small snippet of your comments pretty much defines the deference between an old hand and a newbee. yep.... right there in the words of george ferguson.