Russians

[Beekeeper1958]

I know I'm a pretty inexperienced beekeeper compared to most on here.
I've been reading quite a bit on here and other places about the mite problem.
I haven't seen anything here about the Russian bees though.
I know they're still pretty pricey but they are available and from what I understand do not have the problem with the mites that americanized and european bees have.
Also I understand that they are more cold tolerant than our bees.
Does anyone here have any?

[BjornBee]

Bk1958,
Yes, I have a few.

Claims of mite resistance has been overblown through the years. They are not mite resistant but are more mite tolerable and handle mites better than something like italians.

If looking at a scale of one to ten, I would say that at the beginning, italians were about a 2 on the survivor scale when dealing with mites. Some breeders may of bred the italians to about a 5 over the past several years. Russians started much better on the resistance scale, something like a 5 or 6. Breeding efforts have the number perhaps at 8. In my opinion they started better and remain better. But that is not to say that just becuase you have russians, that mites will not have an impact.

I think that no matter the type of bees, the breeder can make the difference between good bees and bad. There are good and bad italian breeders, and the same goes for russians. I just think on average, russians started off better on the survivor scale regardless of the breeder.

In my opinion, the russians recieved some bad publicity from southern and western breeders that quickly found out that russians, overwinter with small clusters. Not good for breeders who need larege amounts of bees in late winter or early spring for package production and bee breeding. Also not real good for almond production beekeepers. You heard many stories of "nasty" russians and reasons to stay away from them. Much of that was way overblown and hyped up.

I think for the northern beekeeper, russians and carni's are the bees to have. The introduction of SMR into these lines has further the mite resistance ability.

I think many have tried the russians or some bees hyped with claims of resistance. Many of these same beekeepers found out that the claims were false. Much of any colonies success is determined by the management of the beekeeper. There are no magic bullets. But having the right bees, the correct mindset, a good mangement plan, and other key points all go hand in hand. Starting with good quality bees should feed into everything else you do.

[gingerbee]

You mention Northern beekeers, what about Southern beekeepers, what are the best strains to have in a milder climate? So are the claims about Russians bees being more resistant to mites valid or not? What reasons are given for staying away from the Russians?

[BjornBee]

Ginger,
Russians over-winter better with smaller clusters. They shut down during dearths, and do not brood into the late fall like italians, thereby conserving alot more stores than italians that sometimes brood endlessly and eat themselves out of house and home.

For early season pollination and bee producers down south who need large amounts of early bees for packages etc., they may not be the bee of choice.
I also believe that some of the items making them handle mites better may be suppressed with southern bee yards. Times of dearth and the way they react to seasonal changes make russians handle mites differently than something like your average italian. In the south with warmer climate and better (near) yearround forage, these mite suppressing qualities are somewhat diminished. I would certainly use them I the south myself, and many use them and see the value.

Yes, the russians are more mite resistant. I am however not going to state that they are immune to mites and viral issues. They are much better, but not perfect. I am just trying to make you aware of thier qualities without making false statements. If for example, I were to use a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the least amount of resistance to mites, and ten being perfect, than I was hoping to have you underatnd what a 5 might mean in relationship to an 8.

I think that some saw the russians as a bee not usable in the south from a early season production angle, and somehow promoted them as nasty or bees unmanageable with the hobbiest beekeepers. It could of been seen as a threat to the norm. Those claims of mean and nasty bees has been suppressed rather quickly as more and more people use them. It just is not true.

In the south, although the same issues apply, some may look at honey production as the number one item when choosing a bee strain. I think the italians produce more honey on average, but their weak ability to handle mites without intensive management or treatments make them a poor choice for the north. Whereas in the north, i will forego some honey production for a better overwintering bee.

I do think that those beekeepers in the south need to re-evaluate ruusians and other strains in light of the SHB. I see big differences with the darker bee lines being able to handle SHB better.

As you can see, there are no hard lines drawn in the sand. Many pro's and con's and many different abgles to consider.

Regardless of where you are, I would give russians and carni's a try.

[Dwight]

I agree with BJorn. All my bees are Russian and I aquired most of them from a very good breeder who is working towards developing a mite resistant strain. They are very good bees and they do winter well, but they are definitley not mite free.
In my opinion it is worht a little more money to purchase good quality bees. The difference is day and night.

[gingerbee]

Bjorn,

Thanks for helping me understand the differences. We have early pollination here, our Red Maple flow starts the end of Feb. I wish the Russians built up brood early in the spring as the pollen flow starts early here and if I expand I'd like to get an early start so the colony can grow strong. I've also considered letting my bees develop their own queen.

I understood what you meant about mite resistance on a scale, you had just made the observation that others felt differently. There seems to be a difference in what people say about honey production as compared to the Italians too. A bee that is mite resistant and also more resistant to SHB's, not aggressive is a good strain. I'm going to read more about them to determine if they are a good choice for me.

Dwight,

Who do you get your queens from?

[Beekeeper1958]

I just talked to my usual supplier
He has some Russians but said he wasn't really impressed with them last year.
Said they ate more stores than his Italians , were slower to start and produced 1/3 rd the honey of his Italians.

I'm really wanting to get 3 or so Russian queens this next spring when I do my splits and get them going on the supercomb.
I'll probably get them and try it for a few years anyway and see what happens.
I don't have a mite problem right now but it can happen quickly and I want to have some options if it does.

[ September 28, 2006, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Beekeeper1958 ]

[gingerbee]

Beekeeper,

How can you control who your queen mates with? Won't you be introducing a strain that your supplier says isn't as good?

[Beekeeper1958]

Ginger,
I'm going to get my queens from Kelley and they'll be in a seperate yard from the Italians.
I know there's a chance they'll get crossed but I'm not too worried about it.
I'm just wanting to try some of the Russians and the Supercell for smaller bees.

[gingerbee]

I also want to try the Russians, for they seem to be the most disease resistant. However, they are late starters for brood building and maybe not the best choice for beekeepers in our area.
An Italian/Russian blend, if the strain is strong, would be good. Did your supplier's queen's come from Kelley?

[Dwight]

Gingerbee,
I got some of my Russians from John Tardy in Ferrisburg Vt. And some from Kirk Webster (Champlain Valley Bees and Queens) Middlebury Vermont. I am very impressed with Kirks Bees. They build up as quickly and produce as well as any italians I've ever had and they seem to be much more mite tollerant.
Kirks bees are very popular. I had to put my name on a waiting list and wait two years to get mine.
Kirk Breeds his queens in an isolated mating yard and has been breeding for mite tolerance for several years now. He hasn't used any treatment on his bees since 2001. He also uses his own clean wax for foundation so he knows it is chemical and disease free. I bought 8 frame nucs from him and they all were on brand new wax in brand new frames. By far the best bees I have ever owned!!

[beegee]

The Russians show promise, but they are not the end-all, be-all. They still get varroa and hive beetles and AFB, buttend to be more mite-tolerant. I have a friend who is really sold on them. They tend to swarm a little more, like a carniolan. He's got a lot of honey from his, so they appear to be fairly productive. I've got Italian/Carniolan crosses and was going to use NWC, bt am thinking now of using Minnesota Hygienic.

[Beekeeper1958]

Ginger,
I don't think so but will find out before I order mine.

[BjornBee]

As Dwight commented, Kirk Webster has a great program and bees. He has written articles on overwintering nucs and northern breeding. I have mentioned him many times here on beesource and have learned a great deal in speaking with him.

[kenr]

Folks from what I read in George Imries pink pages he had NWC.And had A huge amount of bees to start the flow with.But he had to start feeding in Feb.I would love to get some NWC bees in A nuc but I'm afraid that they'll have SHB and as far as we know nobody around here has them yet(here's me knocking on wood) smile.gif

[Jim Fischer]

I love NWCs. I am very fond of the ground upon
which Sue Cobey walks as a result.

You might be able to get NWCs in a nuc from
another beekeeper, but most NWC suppliers sell
only queens, not packages. (NWCs are like
sports cars - you are expected to have learned
the basics with bees that are less performance
oriented, so they expect you to be able to make
spilts and such). If you requeen quickly before
fall gets much colder, you will have all the
advantages of NWCs next spring, as NWC queens
will lay VERY early, and the population of bees
will quickly become dominated by her offspring
by early spring.

George Imrie was right about the specific
advantages of NWCs (but there is much else
in the Pink Pages that I would disagree
with, or classify as "oversimplified and dogmatic".
Hey, he was teaching beginners with the "Pink
Pages", and one has to simplify and be
dogmatic to stress a few things).

Toss a pollen patty into NWC hives, slap on
a feeder, and step back quickly, as the colonies
EXPLODE. You want to take care to not
forget to check population levels and add some
brood boxes, or you will have near 100% swarming
before the first flow.

NWCs are very efficient utilizers of
resources. You don't have to start
feeding them in February, but if you do, your
hives will be stronger than anything you've
ever seen just as the early flows start, which
means a larger crop than you've ever seen.
Nothing else comes close, and I've tried at
least a dozen queens of every possible breed
and crossbreed of bee available over the past
decade and a half.

One scary thing about NWCs is the tiny little
late fall clusters - you'll worry that you are
about to lose a colony. Not to worry, that's
normal for NWCs, as they are very efficient
about shutting down laying early, and they
are very good at surviving with much smaller
populations (and on less stores) than some other,
more common breeds of bees.

[ September 30, 2006, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]

[bee whisper]

Just wondering!
Are the New World Carniolens mite resistant? Does it matter if you have differant strains of bees in the same bee yard.( as far as resistants)How would N.W.C do in N.C? I have Russians,and love them, But they do get started a little late.

[kenr]

Jim what do you do to keep your girls home?(Checkerboarding)

[cmq]

The N.W.C.'s will do great in North Carolina (especially the mountains). They will suprise you with their small clusters and their ability to explode during the spring flow, bve aware of thet and work them wisely. Orginally I had a mixture of Minn. Hygienic Italians and NWC's but have elected to go 100% NWC within the next few years. Reguardless of what others claim, the work that Sue Cobey has put into the selection of these bees is easily seen in a side by side test. If pressure is not kept on with the selection process the bees will revert to the status quo. Its not about creating the "super bee" its about steady increases in quality and of the yard averages. Mite Resistance is just one part of the equation.

[Aspera]

Beesurv, you could not be more right about breeding bees. Do you sell any II or other stock?

[BerkeyDavid]

Reading this has raised a question. Could it bee that the Russians and NWC's do better in the north because they shut down, and by shutting down deprive the mites of the opportunity to increase?

Perhaps they don't shut down in the south, thereby providing brood for the mites to continue to increase?

I agree with most of all written above, but would stress that everything is local, local local. What works for me may not work for you. So best to find a local breeder if at all possible.

I have really enjoyed reading about Kirk W.'s program, I think those northern beekeepers who are self sufficient hold the answer for thos of us in the north, we need to break from our dependence on southern packages.

[Aspera]

The small number of SMR/Russian hybrids that I have show frequent interruptions in spring and early summer brood rearing. My impression is that this is a major source of mite resistance, but also really kills my spring build up and spring honey production. I'm trying to work around this by changing the way I feed and overwinter bees (no success yet). Based on all the good things that I hear, it is tempting to give the NWC another try (I once had two queens from Heitkems and was not impressed).

[Finman]

.

A Dutch research: http://www.mamamoer.nl/ddb/blz/rapportprimoengels2002.pdf

.

[SantaCruzBee]

Last year I started 4 hives of Russians (hybrids) and they were decidedly the meanest bees I've had. All 4 hives were killed off by Varroa over the winter and except for the expense of starting all over, I must admit I was slightly relieved.

Two weeks ago I was talking to another local beek who'd gotten Russians from the same source. Hers have thrived, swarmed a few times into empty hives she had sitting around resulting in many, unfortunately very mean, bees. She told me she now wants to give up bee keeping.

She also had pictures of the small grass fire (most of her yard) that occurred when the guy who was helping her check the hives finally freaked and tossed the smoker because they were getting stung so much. I've tried to persuade her to requeen this coming Spring. I'm not sure about her plans. She said she'd give the bees away to anyone who'd come and get them.

[ October 04, 2006, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: SantaCruzBee ]

[BjornBee]

Santa, I really think that much of that should be associated with the breeder, than attaching it to russians.

Every year I have a picnic with an open breeding yard. Every year I have dozens of people go through my hives and I don't remember anyone in the past two years even using the "supplied" suits or viels. This year I had 10 italians, 10 carni's, 10 russinas, and 10 hybrids, all set in rows for side by side comparisions. All day long people were in and about the yard. Not one person was stung.

If fact of all the people picking up nucs this year, I can not remember any stinging events. Almost all the nucs/hives are checked a final time by doing a frame by frame inspection with finding the queen being part of the inspection. Then the frames are loaded into the customers equipment. I can not say I never threw my coat on once or twice after wroking the yard all day, but for 99% of the nuc/hive inspections and pick-ups, no equipment other than a puff of smoke was required. Yes, some say nucs are a little easy to maipulate, but much of these were full size hives also. And I will stand behind making these statements knowing a good number of beesource people not only visited my yards, but have my bees in thier hives as I write this.

If you were closer, I would happily extend an invitation for you to visit my yards, as anyone else is also invited. "Nastiness" has little to do with the breed. It has alot to do with the breeder. Culling and selection is sometimes weak in some operations. Sanatcrus, I know you know this already, but for the casual reader, I am trying to emphasize the need to know your source and breeder just as much as your line of bees and calling them italian, russian, or anything else.

[JC]

Russian bees are not for everyone. Management of Russian bees is far different than for Italian bees, especially queen introduction.

I do not use any chemical control for mites. I was loosing 80% of my bees to mites before I introduced Russian queens. I now lose only 10% to 15% of my hives to mites without any treatment.

The Russian bee program and management of Russian bees will be covered by Dr. Rinderer on Saturday, November 4, 2006 at the USDA Bee Breeding Lab in Baton Rouge.

[SantaCruzBee]

I'm sure you're right about it BjornBee. It seems like any bees can either be hot or not. The other beek and I had the exact same source. I would try Russians again, but because of last year's bees hotness I wouldn't use the same source again.

[Yuleluder]

I love the Russian bees. I have 1 Italians and 8 Russians/hybrids. There are 9 strong double deeps in my yard. Everyday I go out and lean right up next to the hives watching the girls come in and out without my viel. I've done this for two years now and have never been stung while doing this. When inside the hive I have never any difference between the Italians and the Russians, I also don't use gloves. When I pop the tops, maybe a couple of bees will take flight. My bees don't follow me or exhibit any type of aggresive behavior. It's all in the breeder, and by gosh Bjornbee is good.

[cmq]

Aspera wrote: < Do you sell any II or other stock?>
The I.I. Stock that I produce is retained for my own use as breeder stock, evaluations & experimentation. In addition one or two new breeders are acuired each year. If you desire good NWC breeder stock contact Sue Cobey at The Ohio State University, (That’s where I get mine).
I do sell open mated NWC queens and make every effort to obtain as pure mating as possible. All drone mother colonies are purchased from confirmed NWC stock.
<I once had two queens from Heitkems and was not impressed.>
Two queens should not condemn any line of bees. Any breeder can have a batch and any batch can contain a dud. Being a small time breeder and not depending on this as my livelihood allows me to hold and evaluate queens for at least one cycle before they are shipped.

[BerkeyDavid]

Hey Bjorn, when is the next picnic? How bout an invite? smile.gif

I bought 3 russian packages this year from a southern breeder. Got honey off of one, one developed EFB and was destroyed, and one just never got going and eventually superceded. All 3 were "hot" until they were smoked, when they quickly quieted down.

I believe it is the breeder. I am sure they were open mated probably of mixed ancestry. I question how good the genetics were / are. I would like to get some good Russian stock in my yard and hope to do so.

By contrast I got 6 NWC queen cells from Tim Tarheit, who uses Sue Cobey systems and genetics, and open mated them in my own nucs with the local drones. So far I am very very happy with these bees. We will see how they get through the winter and build up. But they are gentle, good layers, etc.

I think Bjorn is on the right track. I am trying to get there myself.

When is the picnic? smile.gif

[PA Pete]

I can vouch for the gentleness of Bjorn's bees. They didn't bother anyone all day, and we were all poking around quite a bit. See photos below smile.gif

Bjorn's Nucs (http://pxbacher.home.comcast.net/pix/BjornNucs.jpg)
Bjorn's Russians (http://pxbacher.home.comcast.net/pix/BjornRussians.jpg)
Bjorn's TBH (http://pxbacher.home.comcast.net/pix/BjornTBH.jpg)

[BjornBee]

Thanks for posting the pictures Pete.

Picnic next year is not scheduled yet. We have been having them on the 3rd or 4th saturday of July. I'll post the information as it becomes available.

And thank you to everyone for all the kind words.

[ October 05, 2006, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]

[JBird]

Bjorn, Looking at the pictures PA Pete posted of your nucs, Russains and TBH, it struck me that I may have been at or around the place these pictures were taken. I attended PSU from 1995-2000 and back in high school (1994), I attended the PA Governor's School for Ag. Sciences during which we took a field trip to a farm that strongly resembled the one pictured. Granted, my memory could be tricking me, but I'm almost certain I at least passed by the farm pictured at some point. How I wish I had been more aware of beeks in that area while I was at PSU!

Justin

[danno1800]

Bjorn, great to see these pictures. PA Pete, thanks for posting them!

[BerkeyDavid]

Nice pics! Nice TBH!

[wayacoyote]

RUSSIANS FROM KELLEY'S:

I've been out for a week so am just catching up. Early in the thread someone mentioned they'll get Russian Queens from Kelley's. This past spring, I ordered 4 packages with Russian crosses from Kelley.

3 of them superceedured the queens. This really set me back in an already tough year. Others have reported similar results. Was it poor queens? Was it because the queens were different strain than the package? I don't know. I'm just passing on my experience.

I'd definately use a conservative queen-introduction technique next time. Something like a push-in cage or setting up a 2-frame nuc first to be later joined to the larger hive once the queen is accepted.

Waya

[Jeffrey Todd]

Wow, Bjornbee, everything at your place is so GREEN. How nice it must be. I remember having green around here . . . those were the good ol' days before the Drought.
Of course, we don't get that white stuff, so I can't complain too much.
Nice pics, nice, neat apiary. I like it that way. Makes it even more of a pleasure to keep bees.

[Yuleluder]

I recieved 3 Russian queens from Bjorn early this Spring, and neither of them superceded. I made nucs with the three queens using 1 frame of brood and 1 frame of honey/pollen. They have built up nicely, although I have been feeding them. We ran into a short period of drought shortly after the main flow and before the golden rod/aster flow. All three are in two deeps and weigh upwards of 100#s.