odd brood pattern, mabye varroa

[mackles]

I have an odd situation. All three of my hive are displaying the same characteristics in brood and hive strength. The hives are week, and the brood is not in a healthy patternl, similar to foulbrood. But i see no sunken in caps and gooey insides. I did just treat for varroa with apistan, but there are still some amount in the hives. Could this be because of the varroa mite, or could it be something else? If it is varroa mite, what other method could i use to rid of them? Im sure everyone has their own method that works for them.

[tarheit]

It could very well be PMS (Parasitic Mite Syndrome) which is caused by Varroa. It looks very much like foulbrood, but won't have the same smell (though it can smell of dead brood), and when tested with a toothpick the dead brood won't be ropey (is that a word?). I've also seen high amounts of chalk brood at the same time and the brood seems to die at any age (from the youngest larvae to pupae half emerged as adults).

Apistan is not likely to do much to the Varroa mite as there is reportedly widespread resistance (probably doublely true for CA) and the same can be true of CheckMite. Fortunately there are plenty of other treatments now on the market. Api-Life Var, Apigard, Mite-Away II, other formic acid treatments, oxalic acid, sucrocide, powdered sugar treatments etc. You would have to check which ones are registered in your state and are legal for use. You beekeeping supply dealer should know which are legal (at least the ones commercially available). Just do a search on this forum and you'll find lots of advice on the other treatments.

While I try to use softer treatments myself when necessary (and some may only provide partial control which can be enough under normal conditions), It sounds like you have a pretty advanced infestation and I would recommend one of the alternate commercial treatments this time to try and save them (Mite Away II, ApiLife Var, or ApiGuard). Then when you have times take a closer look at the other treatments.

-Tim

[Dave W]

mackles . . .

What were your mite counts back in June, July and August?

[naturebee]

I would still susepect foul brood.

Open some caps, the brood in all stages must be pure white.

If brood is found that is brown or tan, then you have foulbrood.

[Jeffrey Todd]

Mackles,
Do you have any pics you could post? If so, that would help greatly. I have a brood problem in one of my hives that may be similar. See this thread that is currently active:
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007055#000007

[Dave W]

Pcolar . . .

>If brood is found that is brown or tan, then you have foulbrood.

Is this a "fool-proof test"?

[tarheit]

Any dead brood can be brown or tan, hardly a food-proof test. The rope test is better, though the only real test is either in a lab or the recently available home version.

-Tim

[Dick Allen]

>If brood is found that is brown or tan, then you have foulbrood.

FWIW, decaying brood can turn color from other maladies besides foulbrood.

[mackles]

Well i found one cell with a little stringyness to it, not much, but was made me a little confused was that the larva was white and alive, i just smashed it by using a piece of wire. I will try to get a pic in, i think it is mites tho. I have had little luck with powdered sugar, thats why i used apistan. I have heard things about formic acid, i will mabye try that. Surocide works almost not at all in CA. Every beekeeper i have talked to which has amounted to about 1000 hives worth say it does little if nothing for mites. Thanks for the advice, i try to get some treatments asap.

[naturebee]

--Is this a "fool-proof test"?
--FWIW, decaying brood can turn color from other maladies besides foulbrood.

Well the first step in any diagnosis is to look at all stages of brood to see that they are white. Any brown larve would usually indicate somthing abnormal and further testing would be warrented.

[Dick Allen]

not normal and further investigation I think most can agree on, but you wrote:

"If brood is found that is brown or tan, then you have foulbrood"

For shame Joe!! ;) You should be stripped naked, tied in front of a known Africanized hive, and then have it kicked over. tongue.gif

[naturebee]

--not normal and further investigation I think most can agree on, but you wrote:

--"If brood is found that is brown or tan, then you have foulbrood"

Although, I myself am able to identify foulbrood with a rather high degree of accuracy by its visual aspects, I occasionally forget that it is difficult to convey this same accuracy when writing descriptions over the internet in what to specifically look for to diagnose brood maladies in honeybee colonies.

One of the first things I look for in every time when I enter a colony is the coloration and all other aspects concerning the health of brood in all stages, because this is the ’furnace’ of the colony and often the first place problems will be able to be detected

It’s much easier in person, then you can point to some brood and say “see that there? That’s bad” “see that there?,, that’s good” smile.gif

I’m am currently assisting a new bee down the road that is much the same as the internet. I say “see that there?” and he says “Joe, remember? I have bad vision, I have difficulty seeing the young larva”. Then I say “Smell that banana smell?, the bees are getting alarmed”. Then he says “Joe, remember? I have no sense of smell, I can’s smell anything.” So I sometimes forget these things.

[Dave W]

Pcolar . . .

I'll bet you are "good in person" smile.gif and thanx for conveying that same accuracy here.

Thank you.