Apiguard

[mwjohnson]

Hey
The drone trapping just ain't making it...seeing DFWV and/or PMS for a week or two...gotta do something,never been into counting mites so I just look at the tray and say that's pretty good or,that's pretty bad kinda.But mostly they have looked pretty good.I know,I know...

I did the sugar blaster last summer but I have 20 2&3 deep stories this year,a job,and a family.
Just not possible.

So I got a bucket of Apiguard.

Then I learned from others here that the smell lingers for a year!
I opened it tonight to check out the smell,and while not as bad as I imagined,it doesn't smell too great.

Then I read the instructions.
And was more confused.An e-mail to Landis International 3 weeks ago is still unanswered.

I hoped some of you that have tried(or been investigating)this product would be able to help me understand.

Q1;phamplet states "do not treat during honey flow" followed by "do not use the product when the maximum daily temperature is lower than 60 deg.F"
Here in upstate N.Y.we had a flow all summer,and the fall flow is started,and will go till frost,and then it would be a gamble the daytime highs would consistantly reach that.I can really only count on one more month of temp's like that.It is as likely as not to snow here for Columbus Day.Which is the time the treatment takes(2x2 week applications).
What to do?Maybe 1(2 week)treatment and winter OA?
And,why not treat during a flow?I will remove the suppers.Does it get into the brood nest honey?

Q2;phamplet states"small and wintering bee colonies and nuclei require one dose of 25g gel only"
I winter all my colonies.I don't get the wintering part of that.Any thoughts.

And,I could think of some others...like they explain the 1/4" shim procedure,and then they say to close the hive? I'm gonna think they mean just replace the cover.But someone else might take them literally.Hey,could happen.

The instructions are kinda weak,if you ask me.
They probably are worried they might confuse us,LOL.

And if you would care to offer your opinion on the stuff,that would be great.

Thanks for reading all this,I appreciate it.
Mark Johnson

[Bubba]

Just take off the honey supers and treat smile.gif I got some apiguard in the hive right now.

You dont waunt to have on supers while you treat humm... listerine flavored honey yuck!

[Judy Bee]

Mark,

I constructed a 3/8 x 3/8 inch spacer which roughly looks like the outer rim of an inner cover. I placed it on top of the top box where I placed the Apiguard. Then I placed an inner cover on top of that, giving a space of around 3/4 inch above the frames. The bees have room to reach the Apiguard; the fumes go down to the brood nest and not up to an empty super.

Right now it seems to be working well. I found countless mites on the mite board, checked the Apiguard yesterday and it was over 1/2 eaten.

Yes, it has a pungent odor, but now too bad. Our honey season is over (Willamette Valley in Oregon), so there is no problem here with putting on supers until spring. However, I won't treat with Apiguard in the spring because I don't want any thyme odor in the honey.

Hope this helps!
-Judy

[Dave W]

>Q1;phamplet states "do not treat during honey flow" . . .

Do NOT use when you are collecting honey or if you expect to collect soon. If you have removed your honey supers, you could apply treatment now, but dont collect honey in the fall. When mis- applied, Thymol can affect the taste of honey.

>lower than 60 deg.F . . .

Means do NOT use when its cold (late fall/winter)

>small and wintering bee colonies and nuclei . . .

Key word is "small". The amount applied "normally" to an "average" size colony is 50 grams. A "small" cluster or nuc requires less.

>1/4" shim procedure . . .

Space MUST BE PROVIDED above the gel to allow bees access to the product, they will try to remove it. Distribution of the gel depends on the house cleaning bees transporting it around the hive during the removal process. Gel helps diffuse the product evenly, efficacy is prolonged, colony disturbance is minimized, and temperature dependence is reduced. Works both by contact and fumigation.

>they say to close the hive . . .

Be SURE to CLOSE (insert sticky board) SBB.

[mwjohnson]

Thanks Dave
I was concerned the thymol might somehow affect the winter stores.

The above reference takes me to a thread in queens&queen breeding...Might be me...I am not a computer guy

When I called BetterBee info before I actually ordered the stuff,I asked them IF I was wintering in a 2 1/2 story configuration,and down the road I decided to use the 1/2 story as a super (without the honey that had been exposed to the apiguard)if that would be O.K. The lady put me on hold and checked with someone else but quickly assured me that would be alright.

Sound right?

Thanks
Mark

[Ishi]

Recived this from Dr. Max Watkins this week

Dear Mr Dempsey,



The 2 x 50g treatment is good for a single brood or for a double brood. If you use more than two brood boxes then a further dose is often needed. The 25g treatment is useful for treating small colonies (nucs or small wintering colonies). At daytime temperatures, as you report of 103F I would try 2 x 25g or maybe 3 x 25g (See the attached list of FAQs and answers on Apiguard).



No need to restrict the entrance but make sure the bees have enough space to actually get at the gel. Best way we have found is to put an empty super on top of the brood box(es).



Let me know how you get on.



All the best,





Max







Dr Max Watkins

Director

Vita (Europe) Limited

21/23 Wote Street

Basingstoke

Hampshire RG21 7NE

UK



Tel.: +44 (0)1256 473 177

Fax: +44 (0)1256 473 179



e-mail: max.watkins@vita-europe.com

web: http://www.vita-europe.com






APIGUARD FAQs - 2006 revision2 (2).doc

[Ishi]

I would take off the supers and treat for 2 weeks and then put them back on. Then treat after the fall flow

[Dave W]

mwjohnson . . .

The above reference takes you to a thread in queens & queen breeding, then look for my post on June 1st. Youll find a list of references I use very often. Sometimes I qoute from something that I have read, if you want to know more, just "look up" the reference given.


>Sound right? . . .
>take off the supers and treat for 2 weeks and then put them back on . . .

When using Thymol (Apiguard), I would NOT leave ANY honey (for human consumption) on the hive while treating. I would NOT return any honey super(s) until the FOLLOWING SPRING. The Thymol needs time to "leave the hive".

[drobbins]

Dave

not to disagree with you but that's not what the label says
it says the withdrawal time is zero days
personally, I agree with you, I'd want to let the hive air out
here's the label

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/apiguard/

Dave

[ August 19, 2006, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[Dave W]

>not to disagree . . .
That's OK. When you dont agree, please say so.
Thanks for the "label".

The following may only apply to "generic" Thymol.
Your experience w/ Apiguard, a Thymol product, may be different smile.gif

Thymol residues can be found in the honey after treatments. These residues do not affect taste if applied following harvest [ABJ, 8/05, p672]. After treatment in August/September of preceding year, an average residue content of 0.1 to 0.2 mg/kg of honey can be expected in the following spring harvest, depending on hive type. These residues present no risk and do not alter the taste of honey. Only more than 1.1 mg of thymol per kg of honey is preceived by sensory testing [www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/imdorf_2.pdf - Accessed 7-14-06]. Thymol is not recommended for application during the honeyflow68. In beeswax, the application of thymol products leaves relative important residues (500-600 mg / kg). However, it does not accumulate from one treatment to the next and it evaporates rapidly depending on temperature [www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/imdorf_2.pdf - Accessed 7-14-06].

[Dave W]

Boy, talking about confusion and having your bases covered.

Withdrawal Period:
Honey: 0 days. Do not use during honey flow.

WHAT!!!!!!

[mwjohnson]

My feelings exactly...
Mark
(roll eyes)

[drobbins]

what's confusing?
the label says you can use it up till the day before you add supers
I wouldn't use it that way, but that's what it says you "can" do
it's rather a moot point since the best time to use it is in summer after the spring flow
of course that last comment is totaly dependent on your local conditions, that's how it would be most useful around here

Dave

[mwjohnson]

I guess my problem lies in that I just don't see why the instructions say not to use during a honeyflow,instead of something like,don't use while suppering.

This sorta implies there may be a problem,I supposed that the thymol could accumulate in either the wax or honey(or both)and be unsuitable for wintering.

But I could imagine the problem to be just as likely to be that the flow might stimulate brood rearing,and then the effiacy would be lower.

I admit that this may not be the ideal time to treat,like you said,but we didn't have any dearth this year.

So should I disreguard the instructions,and just do it without a full understanding of what risk I'm taking?

I think most would agree that a can of paint comes with better instructions.

Mark

[mwjohnson]

Thanks Ishi
The Vita link helps a lot.
Anyone thinking about Apiguard should check that out.
Mark

[drobbins]

>>but we didn't have any dearth this year.

well there ya go
your conditions are quite different than mine
around here there's a strong flow april thru may
about mid june it fizzles out and late june thru july it's hot and dry
for a hive with a mite problem mid summer apiguard looks like a good fit
if you have a flow all summer I would think you'd have to abandon collecting honey to use it
pretty undesirable
I guess all beekeeping is local smile.gif

Dave

[wishthecuttlefish]

Okay, here is a question. Let's say I put menthol in the hives August 20. Temperatures in the mid to upper 80's. How long after putting on menthol should I wait to put on Apiguard for an early fall treatment?

Thanks,
Wish

[Dave W]

wishthecuttlefish . . .

If your mite drop numbers indicate a need for treatment, and you treat the V-mites w/ Apiguard, I would apply Apiguard first (as needed), hoping the thymol would kill some T-mites too. September is a good time for T-mite treatment.

[wishthecuttlefish]

I am getting about 10-20 mites dropping, per day, per hive. These are three very, very strong hives. So strong, in fact, that I will be surprised if at least one of them does not send off a late summer or fall swarm.

Thanks!
Wish

[Dave W]

Lets describe "very, very strong" smile.gif

Is it a single deep w/ "50,000" bees "boiling out" (OVER POPULATED)?

Is a double-deep hive w/ "50,000 bees"?

A drop count of 10 from "50,000 bees" does not sound like treatment is necessary now. However, a drop of 20 from a much smaller (but strong) hive could mean somthing different.

[Hobie]

If you have two deep supers, do you put Apiguard on top of both at the same time? Or just one? Which one?

[bourdeaubee]

hobie

I think that you put apiguard on the top of the top deep or super.The apiguard is heavier then air so it wants to settle.

My question is if you were to put your supers and apiguard on now and let the bees fill them would the thymol residues help control the v-mites in the winter? I have some extra supers and Im going to try it this year.Just wondering if anyone has already tried it?

[Judy Bee]

I don't think the residues are strong enough to control mites through the winter. In fact, you need to do 2 treatments for it to be effective. What it does do is treat for mites through 2 bee brood cycles so the number of mites in the winter is extremely low starting out.

That's correct about putting the Apiguard on the top box. The fumes settle to the lower boxes. Right now my brood is in the 2 bottom boxes, their winter honey box (not mine - I took off my honey!) is on top of the brood. The Apiguard is on top of the bee's honey.

[mwjohnson]

Hobbie,
You place the correct dose(see Ishi above)On the top bars of the top box.Gotta have a 1/4 clearance above the gel...

Bourdeaubee,
My understanding is that the thymol should vaporize fairly quickly,leaving little to no residue behind.I hope so...that is why I thought I would try it.
So,I don't know the answer,except that I'm hoping that after using the stuff I don't HAVE any mites to control this winter. smile.gif

I treated 2 colonies today.
One was a late split that I made with frames of capped brood that must have been loaded.It had a food chamber that wasn't full and therefore wasn't supered.
The other the stronger half of a hive that I split last week(found swarm cells and a very full house and lazy acting bees)they got a new box to keep them busy,so they weren't supered either.
Tonight when I stopped to look at things,Hive #1 entrance seemed normal.
Hive#2 was clustered out on the front(68-70 deg.F),foragers waking about with pollen not making a beeline inside with their loads.Sound normal to those that have tried Apiguard?

[wishthecuttlefish]

Dave W wanted me to describe "very, very, strong" so here goes.

First, I only use mediums. For each of my three hives I use 3 mediums as the brood chambers, which is equivalent to 2 deep hive bodies. There are bees covering nearly every surface, of every frame, of every medium hive body. There are bees clustered under the inner hive cover. There are bees hanging out below the very bottom frames. There are bees on the outside washboarding. There is brood from the bottom of the hive, to the top of the hive, and almost all the way out to the sides.

That's what I mean by very, very, strong.

Wish

[Dave W]

wishthecuttlefish . . .

Sounds like you have MORE THAN a very, very strong hive smile.gif

A hive, w/ as many bees as you describe and a "natural" mite fall of only 20, may not need V-mite treatment at this time.


>put apiguard on the top of the top deep or super . . .

Apiguard goes on top of top BROOD CHAMBER(S). No "honey" SUPER should be on the hive while treating. Do NOT let bees store honey in your HONEY SUPERS.

Remember, Apiguard is for treating VARROA mites. Since Apiguard contains Thymol, and Thymol is said to also kill T-mites, you MAY get "double-duty" using Apiguard.

[wishthecuttlefish]

Thanks, Dave. I did not know that Thymol also killed T-mites. Oh well, it's too late anyways, since I put the menthol on a couple weeks ago.


Wish

[MichaelW]

Anyone using Apigaurd with top entrances? Seems like it should work eh??

[Hobie]

I just put a tray of Apiguard on yesterday. It said to put it on top of the brood nest, so I put a shim above the second deep, put the tray there, and put the shallow (winter stores honey super) on top. I screened over the entrance in the shim, figuring if they could haul the Apiguard directly out, it wouldn't work as well. The cover was shimmed for ventilation.

This morning, all the bees seemed to be in the "upstairs." There were no guards at the lower entrance (there are typically quite a few) and I saw a wasp fly in unchallenged. There were bees at the screened entrance in the shim, so I opened it.

Have I done something wrong? Now I get to sit at work all day worrying that I have done them harm.

[ September 01, 2006, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Hobie ]

[MichaelW]

hmm...., I think the fumes sink, so the bees may be escapeing to the upper chamber. I would move the Apigaurd to the top of the hive

[drobbins]

Michael

it's my understanding that Apiguard works by the bees draging it through the hive to get rid of it and spreading it as it goes
I would think you'd always want to put it far from the entrance so they have to drag it all the way thru the hive

here's some info

http://www.dadant.com/Apiguard-openingpg_000.htm

Dave

[Dave W]

drobbins . . .

>Apiguard works by the bees draging it through the hive to get rid of it . . .

That's exactly what they do, but is that "how it works"?

[drobbins]

>but is that "how it works"?

no Dave, that's how it's spread thru the hive and it's why you want to place it as far away from the entrance as possible
nobody knows "how it works"
I tried to get mine to fill out little questionnaires on how they felt about the aroma of thymol but due to their lacking an opposable thumb they couldn't pick up the little pencils smile.gif

Dave

[ September 01, 2006, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[iddee]

SIC'IM, Dave tongue.gif :D

[Hobie]

From the package info and what I've read, it works both ways... the fumes are heavier than air (which is why they say to close off your SBB), but they do drag it through the hive to dispose of it, and disperse it that way.

I just never expected mine to abandon the brood nest. I may have severely hurt the efficiency of the Apiguard by opening the upper entrance, but I was afraid I was gassing the girls. Will just wait and see (and worry all the while) I guess.

If my last remaining hive absconds, I'm going to turn in my hive tool.

And, Dave, your mistake was the pencils. Everyone knows they need tiny ink wells to do calligraphy with their feet.

[drobbins]

Hobie

I think I'd move it to the very top of the hive
I just tried Apiguard one time but it seemed to work pretty well
It's hot here and I still left the top cracked open

calligraphy huh, who knew the little critters were so artistic smile.gif

Dave

[ September 01, 2006, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[Hobie]

I'll try moving it... but may have to wait. Ernesto is due to ruin our Labor Day weekend here on Lake Erie.

You know, this "learning curve" stuff is really teaching me patience. If I don't die of worry first...

-Sue

[drobbins]

Ahh yea, Ernesto
enjoyed his visit today
hopefully he'll leave you alone by Sunday

Dave

[AndrewSchwab]

I too went with the apiguard this year. My lids have exactly 1/4 rim on them. They say that is what you need at least. Well that is how thick the little tin is. So added a empty western rim as also stated in the directions. Set the tin on the top of 2 story deeps.
Did the 24 hour drop test to see if # doubled from the natural fall. It was also the coolest day we have had in months. It maybe squeaked 60 degrees that day.
THe # was higher but not quite double.

THe bees really haven't touched the stuff in the tin. There is just this menthol type smell. You can smell it when you walk within about 6 feet of the hive with it in.

I will do the rest of the hives this weekend, Some of my lids have a taller rim on them. So I will not use the western rim on those hives.

Question how important is it that they remove the stuff from the tin. Because of the 3 that have it on now. None of them seem to be touching what is inside. It has been only 3-4 days so far. :confused:

Oh ya I also have screend bottom boards. But the trays are in just below the screen maybe 1/4 at most. I hope this counts as closed off. :rolleyes:

[Dave W]

>SIC'IM, Dave . . .

Naw. I got what I wanted smile.gif I knew he knew what he was saying, I just wanted him to explain it smile.gif
Didnt want some newBEE to think the bees were smearing this stuff all over "everything".

I just wish he had given us some "numbers". smile.gif

[Dave W]

AndrewSchwab . . .

>maybe squeaked 60 degrees . . .
>not quite double . . .
>bees really haven't touched the stuff . . .

Sounds like you need a bit warmer weather.


>trays are in just below the screen maybe 1/4 . . .

Probably OK, but I would seal a 1/4" crack just to be sure.

[drobbins]

Dave,

I've mentioned this before
it was kinda odd
I was seeing around 20 mites/day
it was early August, prime mite breeding season, and it worried me
I put in the Apiguard and never really saw a big mite fall
you keep the sticky board in so you'd think you'd see all that fall
I must admit to being less than a meticulous mite counter but I never saw a large drop, they just kinda went away
my "tongue in check" theory is it stinks so much the mites absconded smile.gif
I'm just glad they're gone

another interesting note
I dug thru that hive today looking for a frame of capped brood to give to a nuc I'm starting
I was very surprised how little brood I found
there's a dearth going on here and I think the queen has just shutdown
no doubt that has something to do with the mite situation
I guess I'm gonna have to feed em to get em thru winter

Dave

[ September 02, 2006, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[mwjohnson]

I just got a reply to my e-mail from Max Watkins at Vita...err...I mean,I just got some connection issues corrected,so that I could get to read my e-mail.

The reason for not using Apiguard DURING A HONEYFLOW is due to U.S. reg's. and no other reason.

The honey/pollen that is stored during the treatment period is supposed to be O.K. for wintering,the amount of thymol after evaporating(sublimating)to be almost nothing,and the honey is used by the bees,not for extraction and human consumption.


He say's to but the Apiguard ON THE BROOD NEST...IE:in a 2 story hive you put it between the two story,in a 3 story between the middle and top. Hobie's right,I was wrong.I will try it their way on the rest.

Mode of action,Protein denaturant.
It destroy's cell walls and interupts chemical processes,and may cause aphyxiation.

And he say's that a super that was used during a treatment,when empty and allowed to air out over the winter(or a length of time) is fine to use for honey storage at a later time.

BTW,I did cork my auger holes and remove the shims under my plwood tops.
One colony dragged out the foil for me after 3 days.

Here's Hoping it's as good as we Hope it is.
Mark

[Ian D]

Hi all
I've used Api Gaurd for a couple of seasons and it works very well. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS VERY CLOSELY.!!! AND DON'T CUT CORNERS BY NOT USING THE SECOND TRAY.

Do not use it with honey supers on as your honey will taste of Thymol!!!!!!!!!

Drobbins Api Gaurd does somtimes stop a queen laying for a short period and I have noticed this several times. They normaly sort this out when they get used to it.

Regards Ian

[drobbins]

Ian

since you have more experience than I, a question for you
The reply that Mark got from Vita doesn't agree with the way I interpret the label
this may have to do with terminology so let me describe what I'm saying
to me, when you have removed all your supers, what's left is the "broodnest"
others may use different terminology, they may still have a "broodnest" plus some honey storage area, I'm not sure
but around here, let's say the "broodnest" consists of two boxes
where would you place the Apiguard?
I'm under the impression you should use some kind of shim to create a little extra space above the top box and put it there, the extra space being so the bees have room to get to the top of the tray
the reply Mark got from Vita seems to say otherwise
what do folks do on your side of the pond smile.gif

Dave

[ September 04, 2006, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[MichaelW]

Well, I guess I'll be experimenting with Apigaurd with top entrances late in the season. It shouldn't really be necessary for the bees to drag the substance Through the hive as Apilife-VAR does not require the bees to touch it. As long as its evaporating and filling the hive with the fumes it should work, as far as I can tell. I haven't used Apigaurd yet, but Apilife was so pungent that I'm sure Apigaurd can really kick on its own too.

FYI Dadant is out of the tubs. They are expecting them mid-September, if they don't get them I have to go with plan B. Night lows are already in the 60's here which is the lower limit.

[Ian D]

Hi Drobbins
You've got it spot on thats exactly how your ment to use it. We can get big tubs of the stuff and somtimes just neasure from a scoop onto a thin piece of rigid foil/card. So no need for a shim under the crown board. You can also just flatten the edges of the tray.

Although you should pay close attention to the temp when using Api Gaurd Trials in Canada Have shown reduced mite counts on hives with trays left on over winter.(DON'T COUNT ON THIS)

The fumes do sink and all SBB SHOULD BE CLOSED COMPLETLY.

All things considered it's good stuff it does also seem to reduce chalk brood and promote good hive hygiene.

Normaly if the bees are'nt removing it it's because it's to cold or there is to much ventilation and the fumes are not building up in the hive.

Regards Ian

[Hobie]

>>Mode of action,Protein denaturant.
>>It destroy's cell walls and interupts chemical
>>processes,and may cause aphyxiation.

Hopefully asphyxiation of mites only, not bees. I looked at my colony yesterday and noticed bee-battles going on... wondering if this Apiguard is weakening the hive or making the local wild bees think they are weak enough to rob? (I have a very strong wild colony in my barn wall.) I closed the upper entrance and reduced the lower. We'll see what happens.

[mwjohnson]

I sent a quick "Thank You" to the good Dr. Watkins tonight.

I also shot him a copy of this thread,with an invite to join in.

Keep tuned...Hmmm

Mark

[drobbins]

Thanks Mark,

It'll be interesting to see what he has to say

Dave

[Ian D]

Hi all

I found some info if your interested.

http://www.vita-europe.com/Map_enscript/frmbuilder.php?dateiname=%2Fen%2Ffaq.htm