Splitting for Varroa Control

[George Fergusson]

I ran across this management technique in the New Zealand manual for Varroa control. I thought I'd post it here, in it's entirety, for review and comment. As it says in the last paragraph, this method is reported to be 83.4% to 93.4% effective in removing mites from the colonies involved in the manipulation, without chemicals, plus you end up with an extra hive. Sounds too good to be true, eh?


This method of varroa control using hive splitting was developed by Dutch researchers, and is based on both the theoretical model of varroa population growth and techniques for biotechnical control of varroa that originated in Vietnam (see 12.6). The method should be used during swarm control in the late spring/early summer, or when making ‘autumn’ splits in the late summer while the honey flow is on.

Step 1
• Choose two colonies.
• Place a comb with empty drone cells in the centre of the brood nest of one colony (colony A).

Step 2 (one week later)
• In colony A, shake all the bees off the combs with brood except the drone comb, and put the brood in the other colony (B), after first checking for AFB.
• Put a second, empty drone comb in the centre of the brood nest of colony A.
• Put the queen in colony B above a queen excluder in a further super with empty combs.

Colony A now only has a single frame of uncapped drone larvae and an empty drone brood comb, while colony B has a two super brood nest plus a third super containing the queen.

Step 3 (one week later)
• Remove the comb that now has capped drone brood (and mites) from colony A (the comb that contained uncapped drone larvae the week before). The comb can be uncapped with a knife or cappings scratcher and the drone pupae can be removed from the comb in a small hand extractor, washed out with a hand spray nozzle attached to a garden hose, or simply shaken out on the ground. Drone pupae make excellent chicken feed.
• Put this cleaned comb (or another clean drone comb) into the centre of the brood nest of colony A.
• Shake all the bees off the new brood that has been produced above the excluder in colony B. The brood is all too young to contain any mites. Move the brood to colony A, after first checking for AFB.
• Take the bees and queen from the excluded box in colony B and make a broodless split (colony C). Shake all the bees off the second drone comb in colony A (now containing uncapped larvae), and put it in the centre of the super of colony C.
• Put a protected queen cell in colony B.

Step 4 (one week later)
• Shake the bees from the drone comb containing uncapped drone larvae from colony A, and place it in the centre of the brood nest of colony B.
• Remove the comb that now has capped drone brood (and mites) from colony C and destroy the pupae (see Step 3).

Step 5 (one week later)
• Remove the comb that now has capped drone brood (and mites) from colony B and destroy the pupae (see Step 3).
• Check colony B for a new laying queen.

According to the field trials carried out by the Dutch researchers, on average this method is 83.4 to 93.4% effective in removing mites from all three colonies (depending on the amount of drone brood available for trapping). The researchers have managed 70 colonies using this method for 5 years in Holland without using any additional, chemical control.

[Dick Allen]

That was written up, just slightly different, over on Digital Dialogue, Elements of Beekeeping, or one of the other places on BeeSource at one time. I was looking for it the other day and could no longer find it. Thanks George.

[Bob Russell]

George & Dick
These are the graphics to go with your quote George.Reference to pages 58 & 59 in "Control of Varroa - A guide for New Zealand Beekeepers" by Mark Goodwin and Cliff Van Eaton.

http://tinyurl.com/ds433

Sorry my scanner is out of action so have used the digital camera.
Bob.
New Zealand.

[Dick Allen]

Thanks Bob. I've got that little book myself. Great reference for the various mite treatments. I think it's still available as a free download in PDF off the internet isn't it?

[Bob Russell]

Dick
Yes the control of varroa booklet is still a free download.This will take anyone interested directly to it.

http://tinyurl.com/dpo3z

[George Fergusson]

You're welcome Dick. I'd have posted this sooner had I known you was looking! I've been meaning to for a while now, I just got a round tuit.

Bob, thanks for those pictures! Pictures always help, but they're not in the manual I downloaded about a month ago. Wassup with that?

Do you know anyone who's done this manipulation, or have you done it?

George-

[Michael Bush]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

You can get to it from the Beesource POV section under Jan Templeton.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/index.htm

[Michael Bush]

(stupid double posts)

[ January 08, 2006, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]

[Dick Allen]

Since we all seem to be polite and thankful to one another in this thread:

Thanks Mike. I knew I'd seen that somewhere over there before, but for the life of me I couldn't find it a while back.

[George Fergusson]

Thanks Michael, I'd seen that here on Beesource, hadn't read it completely, and didn't make the connection between it and what I've been reading in the NZ manual.

So does anyone have any experience with this approach?

[Michael Bush]

Not me. It seems very labor intensive. Putting in a frame of drone and pulling two weeks later is pretty simple as long as you don't forget it. smile.gif But I haven't done that one either. It was my intent as a fallback if small cell didn't work out.

[George Fergusson]

>Not me. It seems very labor intensive.

Well it does, sort of. Certainly timing sensitive, but that's no different from a lot of beekeeping manipulations.

I think I'll give it a try this spring. I've got a number of hives that are still large cell and probably won't last long enough to make it to small cell without treatments, if they even make it to spring. Those that do come through will do so no doubt with healthy varroa populations. Given that I also want to make increase from what survives, this seems like a reasonable approach. I've got nothing to lose really.

It's certainly easier to toss in some strips than it is to take non-chemical management measures to control varroa, eh?

[Michael Bush]

If you tried to time it with a cutdown split, you might get double duty out of the labor.

[George Fergusson]

That's actually exactly what I was thinking about.. and referring back to previous threads about caging queens and breaking brood cycles and the affect it has on varroa populations. Making increase, bees, honey, and whacking varroa all in one swell foop, albeit a carefully executed and well-timed one, sounds almost too good to be true smile.gif

If being labor-intensive is the only real downside.. well time and labor I got. Money, chemicals, and the desire to use chemicals, I ain't got.

[peggjam]

George:

Keep us updated on your results. It sounds like alot of extra work, but it might be worth it. Thanks for posting the article, it is interesting to see how the rest of the world deals with these pesky little varmits. LOL

[Bob Russell]

George
Thats correct the pictures (diagrams) are not in the booklet.These were published in New Zealand Beekeeper magazine under an article titled February varroa update by Dr R.M.Goodwin HortResearch Ruakura New Zealand Vol 10 N0.1 February 2002 pages 18-19.The article states that the method is reasonably complicated so he developed a series of diagrams to make it clearer.The photos I posted here are taken directly from a handout as in the article.

[George Fergusson]

Heh. Yes, I will and it is interesting how the rest of the world deals with varroa.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this process.. I need to read it over and over and over again until I really understand the nuances of the method. It's really not that hard, I'm just feeling slow. It's winter, and my brain is in hibernation mode.

To be honest, I'm surprised so few people (um.. like zero) here on Beesource have tried the method despite it's having been around a while. Why is that? Perhaps everyone's looking for that silver bullet. I am reminded of what Jim F. says: "The price of honey is eternal vigilance".

George-

[jean-marc]

George it is not surprising at least to me why nobody around here is using this method. Painfully complicated, to the point where you yourself need to read the who to over and over again. Keep in mind that a large Dutch beekeeper has 50 hives. This could be O.K. for small hive numbers. How many researchers does it take to manipulate the 70 research hives? How much time is involved? Keep in mind that someday you may wish to increase your hive numbers and this will happen if you let it. At that point I'm not sure that this method would be very practical.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc

[MichaelW]

Why not do this method discussed in previous threads instead:

Pull all the brood and eggs at the beggining of the honey flow and create a split with it. Let them raise a new queen from eggs. You get the advantage of a break in the brood cycle for the parent hive, a reduction in population to consume nectar, creating more honey, and a new hive that will also have a break in the brood cycle while it raises a queen.

The New Zeland method may reduce mites moreso than this since it trapes drones, But will the New Zeland method reduce mites more than this method to the degree that will make it worth the extra time?

[George Fergusson]

Dunno Michael. I agree with Jean-marc, it's labor intensive (and complicated) and that probably explains why it's not in wider use.

I'm going to try it, anyways. I like Michael Bush's idea of combining it with a cut-down split but to ponder that, I've got to understand this method better. Guess I'll go to bed and read.

[MichaelW]

I think the above idea I posted is MB's cut-down split idea.

[George Fergusson]

I think it is. The cut-down split creates the broodless condition which breaks the brood cycle of the mites, and forces them all to go phoretic. By this you obtain a benefit, but the dutch method traps the little phoretic suckers in prepared drone combs. By this you obtain a HUGE benefit. By combining the cut-down split with the dutch drone comb removal....

[Dick Allen]

It isn't that complicated; it just reads that way. The manipulations are done a week apart, so there's still plenty of time in between to get into an argument with someone on BeeSource.

[ January 12, 2006, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]

[George Fergusson]

>It isn't that complicated; it just reads that way.

After reading over the procedure more, I have to agree Dick. It's really rather elegant in it's simplicity in the way it exploits the mite's life cycle and brood rearing preferences. I like elegant.

I didn't read through the New Zealand manual last night because it's still as yet unprinted and likely to remain that way and I don't take my laptop to bed with me often.. the wife disapproves of that smile.gif I did print out the Dutch version however which interestingly, Barry Birkey is credited with having helped translate. I'd love to hear what he has to say about it.

Anyways.. I digress. I read over the dutch description and it appears to be a lot more flexible than the rigid timeline and manipulations suggest. You have to understand what's happening and make some decisions along the way, you're not just performing moves by rote. You have options, especially in regard queen rearing if or when you make the split. Also, it's as much a swarm control measure as anything.

You're going to have to address these issues (swarming, making increase, requeening) in any case. The idea is to incorporate a few simple procedures into your normal management regimen to get rid of your varroa.

As in a lot of other beekeeping manipulations, timing is everything. If you can incorporate a cut-down split into the formula, and I see no reason why you can't, what could be better? You're making increase, more honey, and less mites.

What's wrong with this picture?

>so there's still plenty of time in between to get into an argument with someone on BeeSource.

Certainly.

[Michael Bush]

>I think the above idea I posted is MB's cut-down split idea.

Just to clarify, the cut down split is not MY idea. It was invented at least a half a century before I was born. I just mention it from time to time. I have some books from the late 1800's that describe it.

[jean-marc]

What is a cut-down split?

Jean-Marc

[George Fergusson]

I will quote Michael "I did not invent the cutdown split" Bush. From another thread:


A cut down split. This is very timing cricical. It should be done shortly before the main honey flow. The purpose is to maximize the foraging population while minimizing swarming. There are variations on this, but basically the idea is to put almost all the open brood, honey and pollen and the queen in a new hive while leaving all the capped brood, some of the honey and a frame of eggs with the old hive. The new hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a workforce (which all returns to the old hive). The old hive won't swarm because it doesn't have a queen or any open brood. It will take at least six weeks for them to raise a queen and get a decent brood nest going. Meantime, you still get a lot of production (possibly a lot MORE production) from the old hive because they are not busy caring for brood. You get the old hive requeened and you get a split. Another variation is to leave the queen with the old hive and take ALL the open brood out. They won't swarm right away because the open brood is gone.

[ January 12, 2006, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]

[peggjam]

It's amazing how everyone is stumbling over their own feet not to take credit for anything :eek: . Wonder why :confused: .

[Michael Bush]

Because if I don't someone will accuse me of TRYING to take credit for it. But in beekeeping, "there is nothing new under the sun".

[George Fergusson]

Well, I was going over the dutch method referred to above and the principles of a cutdown split with an eye toward figuring out how to combine them into one procedure when I happened to compare the dutch method with that described in the New Zealand handbook. They're not the same smile.gif

So, humor me here. They're close in principle, probably not a problem for most people, but for someone like me whose never done a split at all, let alone one of these 3-way mite-trapping babies, it's a stumbling block. I shall recover!

The actual manipulations, what frame goes in what hive and when, and the timing and method of the split are different, or different enough to have me scratching my head a bit. It may be the NZ method is based loosely on the Dutch method, but refined somewhat. The Dutch method provides some leeway in what you do and when. If you're so inclined, read the NZ method in the first post of this thread and compare it with the time table on page 8 of the dutch method available here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

So. The basic elements are the same. You move as many of the mites from hive A to hive B by transferring the capped brood and trap the remaining mites with drone comb; do the same trapping bit in hive B, then transfer some mite-free bees in hive B, with the queen and the open brood into a 3rd hive C (the split), leaving a frame of eggs for so hive B can raise a queen. Recall that hive B before the split has all it's bees, and all the capped brood from hive A. It should be plenty strong enough to split after 2-3 weeks.

So you start with 2 mite-infested hives and end up with 3 hives from which 90% or better of the mites have been removed.

The idea of combining this manipulation with a cutdown split is compelling, and I think from what I've read about them both, quite doable. It's again, a matter of timing and maneuvering most of the field force into one or more hives and the nurse bees into another. Does anyone have any suggestions about how this might best be accomplished?

Or... might it be simpler to think about a cutdown split and how to incorporate effective mite trapping via drone combs into it?

[db_land]

"It's again, a matter of timing and maneuvering most of the field force into one or more hives and the nurse bees into another. Does anyone have any suggestions about how this might best be accomplished?"

I suggested this in another thread about breaking the brood cycle for varroa control: Move the parent hive (A) about 40 or 50 feet from it's current location. Replace it with another hive (B) containing foundation or drawn comb (without brood) at the original location of hive A. The field force will return to the old location. You now have the field force and house bees in separate hives. I would go ahead and blast hive B with OA vapor to kill off as many phoretic mites as possible and replace the queen (taken from hive A or a new queen). Hive A would be kept queenless until all brood has emerged; then blast with OA to kill phoretic mites and combine with hive B for the honey flow. :cool:

[Michael Bush]

The concept of a cut down is to minimize the brood boxes (removing all but one) minimize the brood to care for (by removing the open brood) and maximize the field force (by either shaking some of the bees from the frames for the split off or just letting the drift back to the main hive. There are other variations on where to put the queen. You can either put a new young queen in the old hive or let it raise it's own queen. Or, if you really don't want a split, you can do like Jim suggested and just confine the queen two weeks or so before the flow to cut down on the brood.

One other aspect that the old timers used to do, but may not be a good idea if you feed chemicals and syrup, is to crowd them down to the bottom box with very little brood and lots of honey in the brood box. Then to make room for the queen to lay, they have to move the honey up. This causes them to start making comb to have somewhere to store it. Then they fill the comb with more of the honey from the brood nest. Of course, if the honey from the brood nest isn't considered safe to eat, it's not going to get any safer just because the bees moved it up.

[George Fergusson]

Well db, that sounds like a lot of work to go through just to end up recombining the splits. Why not just cage the queen for a few weeks and get it over with? You'll end up with a box full of phoretic mites, without all the work.

The goal of this exercise is to make increase AND get rid of the mites without a chemical treatment AND configure the hives so as to maximize honey production by arranging for a lot of field bees in one or more boxes without a lot of brood to take care of and a good number of nurse bees in another box to raise a queen and care for all that brood. This manipulation would also short circuit the swarming impulse. Is this too much to ask? Hehe..

Perhaps I am asking for too much, but I don't think so. At least, it's worth discussing and interesting to consider the possibilties. The dutch/NZ method of splitting for varroa control makes 3 hives out of 2 AND gets rid of the mites. I'm going to be trying this method in any case.

[db_land]

Well George, you asked for suggestions about how to get the field force into one or more hives separate from the nurse bees. I suggested the simplest possible method of achieving that objective. If you want to use the dutch/NZ method and manipulate 3 hives because that's less work than manipulating 2 hives, that's fine. Btw, you're welcome. ;)

[George Fergusson]

Well yes db I did, but you sorta took my question out of the context of this thread which is "splitting for varroa control". Your suggestion is valid, it's not really what I'm after. I want to make increase and get rid of the mites without chemicals. Even OA, which I used last year. Ending up with field bees in one hive and nurse bees in another is the cutdown split part of the equation which would be nice, but not necessary. I was just thinking, if a cutdown split works, and a dutch/NZ split for varroa control works, why not combine the 2?

Your procedure sounds sorta like a shook swarm.

And Thank you btw, post humorously. How rude of me smile.gif

[wayacoyote]

Is this the method that we are discussing here? If not, it might be another option for us hobbiests.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

Waya

[George Fergusson]

That's it Waya. It is for lack of a better name the "dutch" method as used within the context of this thread, and it is similar to the New Zealand method I quoted at the beginning. The New Zealand method refers to work done by Dutch researchers and I assume, because of the similarities of the two methods, that the above link is that referred to. The NZ method is perhaps a bit more refined, it's been pared down to 5 steps taken over 5 weeks. The dutch method offers several minor variations on the theme.

[wayacoyote]

What??? the Dutch method? the New Zealand method done by Dutch??

Next you're going to tell me that they speak American in Great Britain or something crazy like that. i'm still trying to figure out Canada having a Fourth of July and France copying our new years holiday... Now the Dutch are taking over NZ and South America is speaking spanish.... when will it end???

Be it as it may, thanks for clearing it up. I think I'm with you a bit.

Any write ups on the NZ method with the Dutch accent so i can compare that to the Dutch method?

Waya

[George Fergusson]

Waya, d00d! <slap!> Snap out of it! <slap!> Don't make this any harder than it already is! And pace yourself, it's only mid-January! You're cracker-dog now, if you don't get a grip you'll be pizzle-end up in another month! And then what'll you do? Forget that, what will WE do?

But maybe... you're the one to help finger this out. I originally posted the NZ method of splitting for varroa control to get some feed back and comments, hopefully from people that have tried it. So far nobody admits to having tried it, and the general concensus has been that it appears complicated. Then Michael suggested it might be able to be combined with a cutdown split.... I'd already pondered that a bit, but Michael's suggestion really got me to thinking but I've been a tad bit busy the past few weeks to do much more than keep it warm on a back burner.

So what do you think of all this?

[George Fergusson]

>Any write ups on the NZ method with the Dutch accent

Oh. Sorry. Read posto-numero-uno:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000617;p=1

[NW IN Beekeeper]

George, d00d! <slap!> Snap out of it! <slap!>

<Oh. Sorry. Read posto-numero-uno:>

A dog chasing it's tail.
Its sad to see such a great man waste such a great mind.

Please come back George we miss you -Earth

Don't worry, I too am too busy being busy. heheh.

Jeff

[George Fergusson]

Hey thanks! Now, for some hot black coffee.

[mwjohnson]

George,I think your on to something.
I used the green drone frames last year very faithfully and I did see a lower drop count.
Not enough to NOT see some shriveled up wings though.Maybe the split would tip the scale a little further....
An aside,by fall,mine were getting packed with honey,so no drone removal in the fall.
But this year I'm going to use Tarheits suggestion of medium frames(in a deep)and then skip the freezing/returning to minimize some of the labor of trapping,cause I'll just scrape the drone cells off and let them draw more.I bought a small chest freezer for the "bee stuff",and if your as smart as you seem, you will to.
I don't want to get off the topic but I MAY try extracting some drone brood and deep frying&covering them with chocolate,like they do with catepillers :)Man they're good.
Mark

[George Fergusson]

>George,I think your on to something.

Well in the immortal words of Michael Bush, "It's not my idea." but yes, I agree, I think I'm on to something.

>I used the green drone frames last year very faithfully and I did see a lower drop count.
Not enough to NOT see some shriveled up wings though.Maybe the split would tip the scale a little further....

I don't think the trick is in the splitting, that's just icing on the cake and assures that none of the hives will want to swarm, which they might not anyways. You don't have to split if you don't want to- it's more of a "heck, why not?" scenario. It's not a hard split either- 3 hives from 2. You stand a good chance of seeing some surplus from at least 2 of the hives, maybe all 3 if you do it early enough. If you can incorporate the main elements (including the timing with the main flow) of a cutdown split into the equation, you might see a LOT of surplus.

The trick is in a) getting your hives broodless and then b) giving them some drone brood, all fed and ready to cap. The phoretic mites in the receiving hive think they've died and gone to heaven. Little do they realize...

The "complicated" part of the method is the juggling of frames to corral your mites where you want them, and timing everything so you've got a frame of drone larvae ready for capping when one of the hives becomes broodless. You want the capped brood to all emerge so ALL your mites are phoretic. That's probably part of the reason why your drone comb experiment last year was so-so instead of Wow. Yes, you got rid of some mites, but there were still plenty reproducing. I figure, if you're going to go to the trouble of culling drone comb, you might as well try to get all the mites you can.

This is as much as swarm control practice as anything. Plus you get rid of 90% or more of your mites. Plus you make increase. Plus you make honey. Plus you use no chemicals. Plus you got all that drone brood to eat smile.gif

It sounds too good to be true.

>this year I'm going to use Tarheits suggestion of medium frames(in a deep)

The only problem with that is the bees can take their sweet time to draw out the comb. They're inclined to do it in a hurry in the spring and early summer, but as summer progresses, the bees are less interested in drawing comb and more interested in storing honey and raising drones. You're as likely to end up with honey in your drone comb. I put shallow frames in medium supers mid-summer and the bees didn't bother building any comb at all, drone or otherwise. I couldn't even get them to draw the medium foundation smile.gif

>don't want to get off the topic but I MAY try extracting some drone brood and deep frying...

Ain't off topic. This method generates a good amount of protein that shouldn't go to waste smile.gif I'll have to give it a try myself.

[NW IN Beekeeper]

Oatmeal Drone Raisin Cookies

1 Cup of ....

Hey? they have to be the right stage of development else they will add too much crunch. (humm.. Walnut replacer?)

Chef buys eggs at $5.00 a dozen, I suppose he'd buy these goofy cookies from us! We just have to call them "organic".

[mwjohnson]

George,Bob,& everyone
I have been reading/rereading the N.Z.info,thanks,I wondered if I download the WHOLE booklet,and printed it(I gotta get some more colored ink)how long does it take(dialup)?
I'm going to be away for a while and would like to take along some bedtime reading.I got the Dutch version last year.
And Yeah,your probably right about my drone frame manipulation being only so-so.I had high hopes,but I'm not convinced that it wasn't operator error,and not ready to abandon the idea quite yet.
Are you going to continue to trap after the spliting?
I thought it took alot of time,although I also think it gave me a good excuse to get out of certain things. ;)
Mark Johnson

[Dick Allen]

Mark, it's 127 pages. I'm on dial-up, too, and did download the book awhile back. I don't recall exactly how long it took, but it wasn't a terribly, terribly long time. It's on my computer; I haven't printed it since I had previously bought a bound copy before it was available in PDF.

[George Fergusson]

It's not a huge file, 4-500K I think.

>I'm not convinced that it wasn't operator error

See Michael's recent thread on Varroa treatments With, and Without brood. Sums it up nicely. If you've got reproducing mites in your hive, ANY treatment no matter how effective it is, is going to do less than you'd like.

>Are you going to continue to trap after the spliting?

Dunno. I'll be monitoring mite fall so I'll have to let you know smile.gif

That said, I actually anticipate not having to treat again after these manipulations. If I take 90% or better of the mites out of all 3 hives, that should do it for the season. The Dutch folks using this method claim to have kept 70-odd hives going for 5 years without any additional treatments.

The problem with the average 90% effective treatment is that unless your hives are broodless BEFORE you treat, even if you treat over a period of weeks, you're not going to be killing anything like 90% of your mites. Not by a long shot. I think, if you actually can remove 90% of the mites in your hive, you're golden- at least for that year.

[brent.roberts]

OK for the newbees here,
( and those without 100 year old books )
what is a count-down split?
I tried the search and it came up blank

[Michael Bush]

Cutdown. Not countdown.

The basic principle of a cutdown split is to minimize the space, minimize the brood and maximize the foragers in a hive just before the main flow.

The "cutdown" part is that you remove all but one box of the brood chamber. The open brood you put in the new split. I'd put the old queen there too. You can leave one frame of open brood (and eggs) at the old hive so they can rear a queen or you can give them a new young one. But now all the foragers go back to the old hive and the bees are all crowded up into the supers, because there is only one brood box, and there is no brood to speak of to tie up nurse bees and resources.

[George Fergusson]

The cutdown split can create an ideal broodless situation for treating your hives for varroa if you time it right.

With only open brood, the new hive (the split) is ripe for an immediate mite treatment as all of the mites are phoretic- at least those that haven't already entered cells prior to capping.

After the capped brood in the old hive emerges, it too is ready for mite treatment. Giving them a frame of eggs so they could raise a queen would tie up house bees and trap some mites. I think I'd rather wait a week or so and then give them a a new queen or queen cell.

[drobbins]

George,

in all this talk about a cutdown split being used in conjunction with mite treatment, I don't believe anyone has mentioned the fact you're going to be treating the open brood that's providing your queen stock with whatever treatment
I would think this might be an issue with something like OA

Dave

[George Fergusson]

>you're going to be treating the open brood that's providing your queen stock with whatever treatment

Well actually within the context of this thread I've been thinking drone comb trapping. This thread wasn't initially about cutdown splits for varroa control, but it seems obvious. Cutdown splits came into the discussion in an attempt to see if the NZ/Dutch method of splitting for varroa control could be combined with a cutdown split to obtain the benefits of both manipulations. Should work. Haven't really figured out how yet. I'm still pondering it.

With the cutdown split, typically the old queen goes into the split with all the open brood so they're not raising a queen. If you wait for the open brood to be capped before treating, you've missed the boat.

The old hive is either requeened or given a frame of eggs or a queen cell. My plan would be to leave the old hive queenless for a while- wait for all the capped brood to emerge, develop a whopping big field force, super the daylights out of the hive, and let `em make honey. Somewhere in there I'd requeen, or give them eggs or a cell, but not right off- only after ridding the hive of varroa first.

>I would think this might be an issue with something like OA

Any treatment should be used with an eye towards it's affect on open brood and whether you're supered. Powdered sugar, OA vapor, and drone comb trapping all have little if any effect on open brood. OA drip would be harsh. I don't consider any other treatment options.

[2rubes]

Hi, I'm back in town and I’m signed up to do our Beekeeping Club Program this Monday. While going over my program withy my mentor, he was a bit perturbed to find out that I've been practicing a form of drone brood removal for a couple of years and wasn't mentioning it as part of my IPM program. He knows I have been talking with so many Beekeepers about using Powdered Sugar and screen bottom boards, he feels using drone comb could be why we are beating the mites. We cycle in drone brood (home made, just empty frames that we let the bees fill with drone brood comb, very fragile, will use drone foundation from now on) comb and out when we are reversing our supers in the spring as part of our swarming prevention. We freeze the comb in the freezers, scrape the cappings and let the bees remove the mites. When we go through the hives again in 10-12 days later most of the comb is capped and it always gets removed and frozen. So now I am doing the program on Drone Brood Manipulation, plus queen caging and broodless periods.
George, you did a great job on simplifying the Dutch method... I couldn't believe my luck that you laid this all out for me. I took some supers and had to practice the 5 week manipulation, but it makes so much sense and I’m going to apply it to our hives this spring. I just finished making 3 cardboard supers to take with me to use in my demonstration. Have you seen Cornell U's version http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/newsletter2.htm where they cycle in drone brood come every 24 days or so? They actually say 28 days because they freeze the comb and feel it takes a few days for the bees to clean out the brood and for the queen to lay eggs. I’m not sure I would wait that long, seeing how quickly they fill up those full frozen combs that I give them. I really don’t even thaw them out.
Now that I have a good grasp of the timing of bees, brood and mites, I feel I’m ready to explain it to others.
And just a side note, our bees are in great shape. I dusted with powdered sugar a couple times this winter on nice sunny (Northern California foothills) dry days and found very few mites. Our hives never went entirely broodless this winter. Do you think I should have removed the brood that was there, just a frame or two in each hive with so little mite drop? I just hate the thought of taking away worker brood. We had lots of bees, 6 to 8 frames in each super and really healthy looking.
Thanks again,
Janet

[George Fergusson]

>So now I am doing the program on Drone Brood Manipulation, plus queen caging and broodless periods.

Excellent Janet. I've been chewing on a plan to present the same subject this coming year with our beekeepers association. One member in particular is registered organic and drone comb trapping is the only "treatment" he is allowed to use. He's been putting a few medium frames in a deep and cutting off the drone comb the bees build below it. This works to some extent, but he's had less than perfect results with it. One problem is that later in the summer, the bees don't seem too interested in drawing comb. I think you get faster turn around using drawn comb. He's also had a lot of problem with swarming so I think this method of splitting (or not) for varroa AND swarm control could just be his ticket.

>George, you did a great job on simplifying the Dutch method...

It sounds horribly complicated at first. It's really not that hard. The method described in the New Zealand manual is essentially the boiled down simplified method- the Dutch article is more of an overview of the scheme with details of several different approaches you can use, together or in any combination. I've thought of rewriting it (the dutch article) in my copious spare time but right now I'm still trying to schuss-out the means of combining the 2 methods (dutch and cutdown splits) so as to obtain varroa control, increase, AND more honey. I don't think it will be that hard, perhaps I too should get some supers out and practice moving some frames around. That might be the trick smile.gif

That newsletter link you posted sounded a lot like, and had pictures that looked familiar to what I remember reading earlier this week in an article in the February 2006 Bee Culture, by Nick Calderone. I looked this morning and they are the same pictures. I suggest you check it out if you haven't yet. The BC article goes into a lot more detail about the experiement that was done. We've been discussing it in another thread in relation to the efficacy of treatments with and without brood:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000629

I think the real potential of drone comb trapping is often not achieved because of the way it's done. You've had good results with it as part of an overall IPM strategy, and a lot of people have too but I think when it's timed properly and utilized in a broodless hive, the results can be amazing.

I think drone comb trapping can also cause problems. The bees want drones and they're not happy without a sufficient number of drones and if you're culling them out all summer long, you'll be at odds with the bees. I like the idea of whacking the varroa back to manageable levels essentially all at once and then leaving the bees alone to do what they do best.

>Now that I have a good grasp of the timing of bees, brood and mites, I feel I’m ready to explain it to others.

You Go Girl smile.gif

[ February 05, 2006, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: George Fergusson ]

[2rubes]

Thanks, more great information.
I would like to dispense with the powdered sugar. It’s almost embarrassing to tell the people at the health food store where we sell our honey that we use powdered sugar as a miticide. They are just so happy we are not using pesticides. It is great; they are really excited about the methods we are promoting. I was amazed at the results I saw last year with powdered sugar. My plan would be to dust the hives when each box gets to that phoretic stage.
My first method was, to use medium frames in deeps and cut away the drone brood as well. We accidentally ended up with full drone brood frames when making comb honey a few years ago. Our method was to put empty frames in during honey flow, but must have done it too early. My only regret, no wires to hold the brood comb in the frame. I’ve broken up a lot of them, trying to get the drones out. I only have two left (from 8), I never thought about wiring them together like some beekeepers to keep them going and now they are valuable. I own some Dadant Drone Comb now, and need to get them ready.
I’ll send you a picture of my props as soon as I get them ready. I’m having a lot of fun with this.
Thanks for the link, those numbers boggle my mind, but I can see the important thing, those mites grow exponentially and we need to do multi- treatments. One or two times a year just doesn’t do it anymore. For people who are not organic, dusting with powdered sugar after you take out the capped drone brood would be perfect for catching those phoretic mites.
Would this work? Take your capped drone brood out one day earlier on the last sequence of each of the three hives. Since the queen could be laying amongst all the empty comb, now the oldest brood is just 6 days, (the mites enter on the 7to 9th day, right?), you would be able to catch almost all of the phoretic mites at this point. I better go get my props and try this again.
Do you know the word ‘Phoretic’ is not in any dictionary? I finally found the word in an on-line encyclopedia, and then it was referring to Varroa Mites, and describes it as 'hitch-hiking.'
Thanks again,
Janet

[George Fergusson]

>I’ll send you a picture of my props as soon as I get them ready. I’m having a lot of fun with this.

That would be helpful. Thanks.

>One or two times a year just doesn’t do it anymore. For people who are not organic, dusting with powdered sugar after you take out the capped drone brood would be perfect for catching those phoretic mites.

I'm sincerely hoping that the NZ/Dutch method of splitting for varroa control will eliminate the need for additional treatments of any sort. The report is that the Dutch beekeepers have maintained a large number of hives (70+) for some years (5) with no treatments other than the once-per-year drone comb trapping. Never having done it, I can't say from experience but from everything I've read and heard, if you can get rid of 90% your mites or better, once per season, you're all set. Maybe I'm dreaming. In any case, I'll be doing regular mite monitoring so if I have a problem, I'll deal with it.

I think the people that practice drone comb trapping and still have to apply other treatments at other times of the year are probably not trapping mites as effectively as they could. Like any other treatment, drone comb trapping works best in a broodless hive and making the effort to create or capitalize on that condition is probably worth it. Just trapping any time is fine of course- any mites you remove from your hive help out and as part of an IPM program, it's valid however you choose to do it.

>Would this work? Take your capped drone brood out one day earlier on the last sequence of each of the three hives. Since the queen could be laying amongst all the empty comb, now the oldest brood is just 6 days,

Dunno. You mean taking the drone comb out before it's capped? My inclination would be to leave the drone comb in until it's capped.

The NZ/Dutch method of trapping involves putting an "egged/larvaed" frame of drone comb laid up in one hive and putting it into another, broodless hive, where all the mites have been phoretic long enough for them to be all ready to dive into a cell. This, as opposed to putting a drone comb into a hive, letting the queen lay in it, then removing it when it's capped.

Clearly, there's more than one way to employ drone comb trapping smile.gif

>Do you know the word ‘Phoretic’ is not in any dictionary?

I tried to look it up once and finally did find it someplace. It's not in my Webster's smile.gif

[eric101]

I am going to try a cut down split (my first split) of the one hive I have to repopulate one of my dead hives. Then (if I can figure out timing) put a frame of drone comb with uncapped eggs/brood in the original hive to get the mites. Not sure what to do with the split out hive as those bees will have mites as they emerge.

I am thinking of getting two packages to repopulate the other two. Then after honey flow, I would like to have those two go broodless for about 2 weeks, throw in a frame of drone brood (uncapped) let them cap it and then requeen with a strong new queen so I get a big population going into the winter. I think the two hives I lost over the winter died due to low numbers. They had plenty of stores. All three empty hives have fully built out brood chambers (two deeps) and a super full of honey (I call it a food chamber). I will try to swap out brood frames with small cell foundation this year (may take a couple years though) in an attempt to shift to small cell bees.

Does this make sense? Does anyone have any comments or suggestions? I am really at a loss here. I don't want to do splits on all my hives each year (too much $$ in woodenware) - I like having 4 hives. What do you think the best way to go broodless would be?

Thanks in advance,

Eric

[eric101]

While I'm on the subject, does anyplace sell plastic small cell foundation?

Eric

[Dave W]

eric101 . . .

>I think . . . died due to low numbers. They had plenty of stores . . .

Sounds like my dead-out. Do you monitor V-mites AND T-mites?

What / how have you been treating for V-mites?

[George Fergusson]

>I am going to try a cut down split (my first split) of the one hive I have to repopulate one of my dead hives. Then (if I can figure out timing) put a frame of drone comb with uncapped eggs/brood in the original hive to get the mites. Not sure what to do with the split out hive as those bees will have mites as they emerge.

From a previous message in this thread (I said it once and can't think of a better way to put it):

"With only open brood, the new hive (the split) is ripe for an immediate mite treatment as all of the mites are phoretic- at least those that haven't already entered cells prior to capping."

"After the capped brood in the old hive emerges, it too is ready for mite treatment. Giving them a frame of eggs so they could raise a queen would tie up house bees and trap some mites. I think I'd rather wait a week or so and then give them a a new queen or queen cell."

Some of the timing issues involving a cutdown split and drone comb trapping still have me scratching my head. I figure I'll just have to sort it out as I go.

>Does this make sense? Does anyone have any comments or suggestions? I am really at a loss here. I don't want to do splits on all my hives each year (too much $$ in woodenware) - I like having 4 hives. What do you think the best way to go broodless would be?

Sounds to me like a lot of unnecessary manipulations for a new package. You want them to build up quickly and steadily with as few interruptions as necessary.

In subsequent years if you don't want to make increase, you can still arrange a broodless period and utilize drone comb trapping for varroa control, and likely prevent swarming as well if you're lucky and time it right. Either caging the queen or requeening would be a reasonable way to obtain a broodless condition.

George-

[Ian]

>>I don't want to do splits on all my hives each year (too

I like having increase nucs at my disposal for insurance when those heavey loss years come about.

your thinking too far ahead of yourself. Whats the harm in keeping an extra two increase? They will only use up another couple of chambers. That is the easiest way of keeping your numbers steady. And stop fussing over the spring dwindling hives

[cmq]

I split for several different reasons:
1) Good incometo pay for my habit of
beekeeping
2) Good way to rotate older comb out of my
apiary.
3) I require bees & comb to fill my
3 frame mating nucs so this fulfills
my need.
4) Forces me to get in hives & "open them up"
so it turns out to help out on swarm
control.
5) At the end of the season it gives me
strong nucs that I can turn early in the
spring.

The low levels of mite infestation in the spring do not come into play on my spring splits, but could be a factor later on in the season.

[Michael Bush]

>does anyplace sell plastic small cell foundation?

Dadant used to. It worked ok on regressed bees and poorly on unregressed bees. They seem to have dropped it. You might find someone who bought some and hated it to sell it to you or you could ask Dadant if they still have some.