Mites and various treatments

[Michael Bush]

Thought I'd move this to here and try continuing the discussion. Sorry for the long quote.

Quote from the FGMO forum from TopBarGuy.

"Hi Guys,
Most of the visible symptoms for PMS are caused by mite vectored viruses. When I was counting mites, some hives would show lots of symptoms with a very low percentage of mites. Other hives, like my Russians, could handle a tremendous mite load before showing any visible symptoms at all. The difference was not mite tolerance, but resistance to the mite vectored viruses. In my Russian hives, visible symptons were seen just one brood cycle before the hive would collapse.

When colonies are full of brood and mite infestations are low, about two-thirds of the mites are sealed up with the brood and unaffected by most treatments. But when mite levels are high, a much higher percentage are sealed up with the brood, as mites reduce their questing time from about 4 days to less than 2 days.

When a hive reaches that condition a very effective treatment is needed as lots of mites will be 'hatching' out with the callow bees. And if they are not intercepted by the treatment within a day or so, they will be sealed up and breeding again. And the treatment duration must be long enough to intercept all the mites sealed up when the treatments are started. Bees are sealed at days 8 through 10, and emerge at days 16 through 24, depending upon the type of bee. So for a worst cases senario, a minimum of 16 days of effective treatment would be needed if a treatment were 100% effective. Most treatments aren't that effective, so a full worker brood cycle or three weeks is recommended. The miticides are sold in slow release plastic strips for this reason.

So, lets look at a few different kinds of treatments under those conditions. Powdered sugar dusting would require daily treatments for three weeks, as its effectiveness at 80 to 90% is measured in hours. Oxalic acid, whose effectiveness of 95% is measured in days,would require three treatments about a week apart. FGMO, with a 60% effectiveness and applied weekly, would require continous treatments just to maintain the current level of mite infestation.

Any treatment with a 60% effectiveness keeps mite levels almost constant with a slight increase. There is no problem when mite levels are low. But the converse is also true and can be disasterous when mite levels are high. Such a treatment will hold the mite levels in check but will not significantly reduce them. Miss or misapply a treatment and 2500 mites can suddenly become 5000.

And maintaining mites at a certain level doesn't mean the viruses vectored by them will stay at a constant level within the bee population, especially when the mite levels are high. That has been my experience with FGMO, although I admit my experience is dated.

Hence, Michael's recommendation to monitor any treatment and get experience with it before trusting it, is very good advice.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking beekeeping with continous, daily or weekly treatments might be more focused on mites than bees :> )"

[Michael Bush]

IMO Topbarguy had done a good approximation of what I have observed. That is, many "alternative" treatments are effective at maintaining an acceptable level of mites, but are ineffective at knocking down a severe infestation or at handling a sudden influx of mites from some outside source. This is not to say they are not effective, but being non-poisonous, they are often not as impressive at knocking down all the mites. Even Apistan doesn't seem to knock out the mites in the cells.

I guess my point is you need to have an understanding of the Varroa and how they are in the cells and on the bees and the rate they are emerging in the fall, and the rate, and what population is being effected by the treatments to get a grasp of this. Also, if you monitor the mite fall you can see the changes in the mite population as it builds up and as the treatments knock them down etc.

Comments?

[dickm]

I'd like to hear from someone who used FGMO with thymol alone and how their mite drops are now. This would seem to combine a holding action with a knockdown action. I heard Clinton Bemrose say he loved it. Any one else.

Dickm

[A Devries]

I've been using Flash Treatments of formic acid with great sucess. The treatment is only 24 hours so if you realize you have a badly infested hive during the summer you simply pull the supers squirt in the acid and replace the supers the next day. It is cheap and fast. You use it as you would use oxalic with simular effects. Here is a website that describes the whole procees much better than I ever will http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/flash.en.html I would like to hear what others think of this treatment. I think between formic and oxalic acid and mite resistant queens most of my varroa problems are taken care of.

[Michael Bush]

I've seen a lot of studies that say that Formic Acid kills queens. Does the "flash" treament help with that? Also, the formic acid seems hard to find at a decent price because of the shipping problems with a caustic liquid.

Oxalic is so cheap and easy to get and I haven't lost any queens and I don't care what the temperature is.

[Oxankle]

Michael:

The NE Ok Beekeepers Assn. had its annual seminar this past Fri/Sat. The featured speaker showed us the new formic acid pads for varroa treatment.

According to the speaker, formic acid is both highly temperature sensitive AND can result in a lost queen. After hearing him and seeing the product I decided that I would go Oxalic before I used formic acid.

He also told us that short of a hammer and anvil, none of the usual treatments for mites were working in Ohio.

All he knew about FGMO (or would tell) was that he had a friend using the method back in Ohio and that the friend was claiming some success.

The new formic acid treatment consists of a pad of the green "flower holding" foam like that used by florists, about 3/8 inch thick and 8 inches square. It is encased in a plastic bag with small holes (like a paper punch) cut into one side. In use it is soaked with 250 ml of formic acid solution (60% formic Acid as I recall) and put on a couple of sticks laid across the top boards. The Formic Acid then volatilizes and kills the mites and possibly your queen and bees too if the temp limits are exceeded.

According to the speaker some beekeepers are buying the little pads, soaking them in their own F. Acid and putting them in the hives.

Another speaker told me privately that he thought I had about three years before the AHB was in my area. This was a state man; he had a nice looking "Brazilian developed" full bee suit with a built in helmet and stand-away mask that did not anywhere come near the wearer's body. Some of the other attendees told me that an Oregon supplier sold these for something over $100.

Ox

PS: I looked all my bees over today; 50% of them are very strong and have capped honey everwhere it should be for winter. The other half have about 80% to 90% of what I want them to have and I started feeding. At this point I see absolutely no reason to do either Formic or Oxalic. The bees seem very healthy and content with the FGMO. With the supers gone I am back to using cords over the top bars as well as fog. Of course I am using lots of oil, but that does not seem to bother the bees.

PPS: Oh, yeah; The speaker told us that Formic Acid eats hell out of metal in the hive and that over time it could take the head off nails or dissolve staples. Whether or not it would do this to metal covered with wax and propolis he did not say.
[This message has been edited by Oxankle (edited October 18, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Oxankle (edited October 18, 2004).]

[Patrick Scannell]

"I'd like to hear from someone who used FGMO with thymol alone and how their mite drops are now. "

I have been using FGMO w/thymol weekly and was getting 2-3 mpd (mites per day) until I treated with OA, then I got 50+ mpd.

[dickm]

Patrick,
That's the kind of information I was looking for. Without thymol, I treated the same way. (on 16 hives). I thought I was doing pretty well. Had 2 hives over 50 mites but most were from 0 to 25. When I had a state inspector look at them he showed me lots of mites. They were in worker brood, and on bees and there were deformed wings. With the O/A treatment there were lots of dead mites 50 to 150 a day.
One thought I had was about the way I count. I've pull out bottoms on all hives which I cove with canola oil. At EAS one of the experts said that this wasn't sticky enough. I should use something called "Tanglefoot". You can get it in a spray and it really is sticky. Like flypaper. The mites can swim in oil and not be dismayed.
I've never counted any other way. I don't think I'm getting an accurate picture.

dickm

[dtwilliamson]

I have been using FGMO with thymol since 1st part of June. Until my last count, the worst mite count I had was 16 mites 24 hrs after fogging. I fogged religiously on the same day everyweek. I didn't use Cords or any other treatment. Most mite counts I found were fewer than 5 on all 3 hives. Last Tuesday I fogged and on Wed evening I had 62 mites on the tray in my strongest hive. The other 2 hives had approx 20-25 mites. I am going to fog again today and see what happens by tomorrow night. I am hoping that I just had a big influx that I was able to catch early. I think the thymol should kill the mites it contacts. We shall see. If it gets worse I'll run for the OA.

Dan

[Patrick Scannell]

dickm

I use Aluminum flashing coated with fgmo as a sticky board, and I never notice the mites moving. There is enough oil to coat and smother them.
Do folks think that this method does not provide and accurate drop count?

[Michael Bush]

As long as you're aware of the cause of the drop (natural, treated etc.) it's as accurate as a sticky board. They fall on the sticky board and can't get up.

[topbarguy]

Hi Guys,

Mite trays can be lightly dusted with powdered sugar. Then the mites leave a trail which can be followed. I haven't seen much evidence that the mites travel very far. They tend to quest in a round pattern and may travel a foot or so total linear distance.

I think they key off bee movement. If there is enough distance between the screen and the tray, so that the mites don't sense the bee/air movements in the hive, they quickly settle down and wait for an passing opportunity.

My trays were about 1 7/8" below the bees. Very few mites returned to the hive.

Inside the hive, with all its activity, mites will travel far and fast.

Regards
Dennis

[BerkeyDavid]

Not sure if this the appropriate place to put this comment/ warning.
I just treated all my hives with Top Bar Guy's crack pipe invention. I did my TBH hives and one of my Langs, then ran out of propane so I switched to MEP gas. Might have been a mistake. MEP gas (yellow cylinders) works great for plumbing, it is a lot hotter. So I ended up with about 100 dead bees on the landing boards of the 2 hives i used the MEP gas on. They are still dragging the bees out 3 days after treatement, so it might be worse. I sure hope I didn't fry any queens.
Anyway, a word to the wise. Dennis does say to keep the heat low on his web site. This is WHY!

david

[dickm]

I have to know dennis .... how would you know that not many mites returned to the hive. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif

dickm

[JohnBeeMan]

>>>>how would you know that not many mites returned to the hive

Because they would have set of a mitey alarm! http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[topbarguy]

Hi Guys,

>how would you know that not many mites returned to the hive

Even when hives are filled with brood and mites, most of the mites fall off toward the center of the mite tray, directly beneath the broodnest. And their tracks indicate they tend to stay there.

Another thought for tanglefoot and sticky board mite trappers. Just put the goo next to the edge of the tray, rather than all over it. It's alot easier to clean. The mites have a good high jump, but are terrible long jumpers.

Regards
Dennis
Ex-sticky tray guy:> )

Regards
Dennis

[wayacoyote]

Has anyone tried the drone-comb varroa trap method? Here is a link to an article http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

It looks promising if it is as effective as it claims. what are other opinions on this method?
WayaCoyote

[Michael Bush]

I always figured it was worth thinking about the drone comb method for a fallback position, but it's such a drain on resources to raise brood and cap it, that I hate to do it if I don't need to. So far, with small cell, I haven't needed to.

[Dick Allen]

Dennis, are most of those mites you find in the sugar dead or alive? I'd suppose powdered sugar dessicates the mites. I've used large boxes and shaken bees into those, then shaken them around with some powdered sugar, you know like shake'n'bake. When all the bees had been returned to the hive, most of the mites in the box seemed lifeless to me.

[topbarguy]

Hi Guys,

If you want to use powdered sugar to trail the mites, the coating must be very light. Otherwise the mites will get gummed up.

Try using a vaseline rim around the edges of the mite tray to see how many mites try to get out.

Regards
Dennis

[wayacoyote]

Michael, I have been wondering about the sucess rate of small-cell and how it worked. You might recall some of my posts on another website. In pondering your replies there and here, I realize that small-cell works by reducing fecundity of the varroa rather than quickly eliminating the present population. More of a long-term treatment/ prevention (and a worthy one) rather than a quick fix. Am I close?

WayaCoyote

[Robert Brenchley]

You are. Some people have experienced major varroa infestations in the first year on small cell. After that it seems to come down. The answer to that is, always monitor your mites, and keep the counts low, that way they've got a better chance as they get established on the new cell size. I have my monitoring trays on the hives all year round, so all it takes is a wipe, and I'm ready to come back after a few days and count mites. Meanwhile the debris on the trays has a lot of other information to offer.

------------------
Regards,

Robert Brenchley

RSBrenchley@aol.com
Birmingham UK

[Michael Bush]

>I realize that small-cell works by reducing fecundity of the varroa rather than quickly eliminating the present population. More of a long-term treatment/ prevention (and a worthy one) rather than a quick fix. Am I close?

That would be my view of it. It does reduce dramtically the reproduction of Varroa. But that doesn't immedietely remove all the Varroa and it doesn't prevent foragers from bringing it back.

[topbarguy]

Hi Guys,

Several studies have been done around the world testing the idea that cell size has some kind of effect on mite fecundity. Not much results are seen that directly affect reproduction rates for the mites.

I think the focus on mite behavior versus cell size is misplaced and leads to cell size studies that focus on the wrong factors. But bee behavior changes drastically when bees are on small sized cells. They can detect and remove infected pupa. Mite fecundity is indirectly affected as infected cells are uncapped and mites are actively destroyed. And I think the rest cower in the bottom of the cells, fearing to stir or breed, lest they be detected and destroyed :> )

Regards
Dennis
Wondering if mites scream when bitten by a bee :> )

[jfischer]

> He also told us that short of a hammer and
> anvil, none of the usual treatments for
> mites were working in Ohio.

Who was this person, and can someone
remind him to stay on his medication? http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

Ohio has more hobby beekeepers than many
states. Each year, the "Tri-County"
meeting in March attracts 800+ beekeepers,
perhaps more beekeepers in one place at
one time than any other meeting in the USA.

If the normal treatments were not working,
you could likely hear the outcry from OK.
I dunno who this fellow was, but I know beekeepers
in Ohio, and there is no massive collapse
indicating that "none of the usual treatments"
were working.

Even "lazy" beekeepers have decent hives
with normal fall configurations and reasonable
mite counts.


[This message has been edited by jfischer (edited October 23, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by jfischer (edited October 23, 2004).]