Does anyone do pettis tests?

[BjornBee]

I keep hearing about beekeepers who comment on Apistan not working, and that it failed years ago, and that resistance is growing.....and so on.

Does any beekeepers do pettis tests to determine if your bees are resistant or not? Resistance one year does not mean that the mites will be resistant a couple years later.

Was the resistance due to beekeepers using the same strips year after year? Were you rotating?

I hear "apistan failed me years ago", without any mention of checkmite, or any other references to other treatment options that should of also been incorporated into the management plan. Thus rotating and keeping apistan as a usefull tool against v-mites.

It is one thing to not use chemicals do to personal feeling about chems in a hive. But the comments about something that happened years ago, and then mentioned time after time, as some sort of justification against its use, is tunnel vision. Did you recently do a pettis test to determine if your mites are resistant?

Resistance is 99% due to the beekeepers using the same type strips every year, or leaving the strips in the hive longer than directed. Some leave the strips in all year, and this leads directly to resistance.

I am not pushing for chemical use, but new beekeepers should be aware that most resistance is directly related to the beekeeper themselves. It is still a viable option for those who use it correctly. And knowing if your hives is resistance is easy to determine.
Rotating of Apistan and checkmite, and only using when tests warrant its use, will keep the resistance in check.

It should also be noted that on this site, you have a group of beekeepers who are proponents of other treatment options than chemical strips. If you are new to beekeeping and use this site for your only source of information, please realize that 90% of beekeepers who treat for v-mites, treat with strips. They still work, and will for years to come. The risk if used correctly is next to nothing.

[dickm]

Recently the Ct inspector remarked that he had found no resistance to Apistan this year.

Dickm

[BjornBee]

Dickm,
Here, there is slightly more resistance to checkmite than there is for apistan. Again, from the same story....Beekeepers went to checkmite since all the resistance hoopla over the use of apistan, and now the same beekeepers have used it for 3 or 4 years running, and the same result, resistant mites. I guess once a bad beekeeper, always a bad beekeeper. IPM management is foreign language to most.

[Michael Bush]

>please realize that 90% of beekeepers who treat for v-mites, treat with strips.

OK. I'm curious. Let's get a count. Here are the categories for V-mite control:

1. Treat with strips (Apistan or Checkmite) only.

2. Use a combination of strips (Apistan or Checkmite) and other IPM strategies (SBB, Powered sugar, FGMO etc.)

3. Do NOT use Apistan or Checkmite at all and use some alternative treatment (FGMO, Thymol, Oxalic Acid, Essential oils, Powdered sugar, etc.) and possibly some other strategy such as SBB, small cell etc.

4. Use natural sized cells and no treatments at all.

5. Do nothing at all for the v-mites.

I have gone from 1 to 2 to 3 and am working toward 4. So I guess I'll count as a 3 right now.

Can we get a poll of Beesource users please? What do you do?

[dcross]

#3-OA and Sbb

[bjerm2]

I do number 3, FGMO with thymol for this time of year and spring then just FGMO for the summer. This method seems to be working but I also have incorporated SMR bees into my mix. I'll be able to say (cry) more next spring.
Dan

[The Honey House]

#1

[Dave W]

No, I have Not used the "Pettis Test".

A sticky-board test of 108 on July 7, indicated (maybe too late) a need for treatment. I applied Apistan to my hive July 12, 2004. After 43 days, I had counted 15,341 mites on my sticky-board. "Natural drop" declined to 28 on Aug 30.

Now (10/11), drop is up to 140. Quess you could say, "resistant mite are taking over" (they must be resistant to Oxalic Acid also, because TWO treatments have not shown any affect on climbing drop numbers).

I am tempted to use another dose of Apistan, to determine how many mite are IN hive NOW.
But, . . .

1) MAYBE, hive was re-infected after removal of Apistan (8/29), and residue of fluvalinate, that has acculimated (sp?)in wax, is now killing the phoretic mites as they enter hive.

2) MAYBE, all the mites that remained after treatment, and new mites looking for a new home, are now dropping to sticky-board just because of "old age".

In a heavily-infected hive (like mine) where do the mites go in cold weather (mite counts are also lower in winter)? If a strong hive in summer (like mine) w/ 50,000+ bees infected w/ 15,000 phoretic mites (30% infection level would be necessary to find 9 or more mites doing a "sugar roll" w/ 300 bees)and hundreds (or thousands) more hatching from brood cells, WHERE DO ALL THESE MITES GO!

#1, May do #2, Prefer #5

------------------
Dave W . . .

Hobbyist - 1 Hive
First Package - Apr 03
Broodnest - 3 Deeps
Screened Bottom Board
Apistan - Aug 18, 03
Grease Patties - All year
2003/04 Winter Loss - 0%
See Forum1/HTML/001304, for ongoing mite counts.

[This message has been edited by Dave W (edited October 12, 2004).]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

#3, SBB, OA, PC (semi-small cell)

[Axtmann]

Perizin (chumaphos) liquid till 1989 – 90 and since then oxalic acid. The first year’s liquid acid and now vaporized OA only.

[BjornBee]

MB,
If your referencing the 90% I mentioned earlier, and are trying to justify, disprove, or somehow trying to show that people use other treatments more than what I'm saying,(or maybe just curious) your asking a group that has collected on a site and are probably a collection of beekeepers who are drawn to try options different from the mainstream. With that in mind, I have already mentioned that this site promotes and discusses "other" options on a higher level. I would expect the numbers to be a little different.

The 90% using strips is mainstream beekeepers. I keep very good data, and can say that of over 400 beekeepers inspected this summer, the breakdown is about,

One beekeeper using FGMO with pullout tray. I ask every beekeeper what treatments they use, and most do not know anything of small-cell or FGMO. Some will say they have read something in one of the mags, but know little of it.

3 have tried OA.

About 10% do not treat with anything.

About 20% use screen bottom boards.

About 10% use menthol in fall.

I have not met anyone currently using small cell.

Apistan and checkmite is about split in use. 90% use them at least once a year. Surprising to also note that about about 5% use both apistan and checkmite in the same year, every year. Not good.

I did not figure screen bottoms into one "treatment" catagory. My 90% is based on those actively treating for mites. Small cell, OA, and FGMO are non-existant for the most part.
Other stats...

IMO....50% of beekeepers should not have bees.

95% do not do any mite testing.

50% do not know what a mite looks like.

5% do not know the difference between a queen and a drone. (believe it)

[Michael Bush]

>If your referencing the 90% I mentioned earlier, and are trying to justify, disprove...

I'm not trying to disprove anything, I'm just curious. But I do doubt that 90% use the strips, but it's true this site attracts a lot of alternative people. I think a lot of people are doing nothing at all.

>IMO....50% of beekeepers should not have bees.

Probably.

>95% do not do any mite testing.

I'm pretty sure this is right. Most seem to either have "faith" in their alternative treatments or "faith" in the mainstream treatments and few bother to measure anything.

>50% do not know what a mite looks like.

Probably also true.

>5% do not know the difference between a queen and a drone. (believe it)

I believe it.

[Hillbillynursery]

I do not come in this forum often so sorry for the bump as many prefer old topics stay old lol. I use natural cell size as the bees draw what they want in foundationless frames. I still have alot of rite cell plastic foundation in some hives which I plan on rotating out as well as culling the combs with to much drone and larger cells.I do not have enough screened botoms for all hives so I rotate them and keep tabs on mite drops. 3 of my 10 hives were dropping over 30 a day average and have been treated twice with OA. Once brood stops I am going to treat another 2 times. I am trying to be mite resistant so I am raising queens from the hives that have the lowest mite count(have 3 that will be used next spring).

So I guess that makes me a #3.

One thing that made me go with TBGs crack pipe OA vaporizer was cost. I was a plumber had alot of fitting(even though when I went thru them I did not have what I needed). The other thing is OA cost pennies per hive to treat and the strips are expensive. FGMO is time consuming and the fogger is so expensive for my few hives. Before anyone starts quoting prics of foggers, they do not pay for blood around me so any cost is really to much right now.

[Old Buzzard]

#1.....Presently.
Why?
I have recently started beekeeping again after many years of not having bees. I however spent many years working my father's bees and then having my own hives. This was during what I think of as the pre-mite era. I restarted with at least twenty year old equipment, that came from what I knew to be disease free hives. I am no stranger to honey bee management. My father taught me two hard and fast rules about beekeeping.

1.The goal of the honey bee is entirely different than the goal of the beekeeper. You can only manage bees to a degree, in the end these wonderful creatures will do what they want to do.

2. Do what you know will help maximize the potential of the bees achieving the beekeepers goal. Be willing to learn what you don't know.

I am simply applying these rules.

I know that Apistan and Checkmite will knock down the mites....if they are not resistant, and you follow the directions. (I have learned to use sticky boards)

This is not to say that I do not believe any of the alternate methods are not effective. I also am not attempting to discredit anyone that uses only alternate methods. I just have no personal experience with them. Some I had not heard of before I started reading this forum. But I am willing to learn.

My father and I experimented with different methods of hive management as we expanded. But we always kept a core group of hives that were managed under methods we knew to be effective. If a management method proved itself to be more effective than what we were doing with the core group then we implemented it on the core group.

I would like to move away from the strips, I plan to do experiments as I expand but right now I only have the core group.

[AstroBee]

Started out using #1 (year 1), then transitioned to #2 (year 2)(Apistan, FGMO and SBB), then moved to #3 this year (FGMO, SBB, and Sucrocide) so far so good. Not sure I'll ever make it to #4 due to the extra costs associated with new frames and foundation (I mostly use the one piece plastic frames).

[A Devries]

I'm trying to use Mite Resistant Queens and flash applications of Formic Acid. For more about Flash Formic Acid Applications have a look at this web site. http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/flash.en.html

[ox]

#3 Oxalic Acid and essential oils

------------------
the ~ox-{ at www.singingfalls.com (http://www.singingfalls.com)
If this message is edited it is because I have to correct my spelling again. 0_0

[dickm]

3. FGMO, SBBs, and now O/A.But not without pain. Lost 33% last winter and 100% the winter before. 4 other incidental losses.
On the matter of "alternative treatments". I understand that O/A has been used for years in Europe and Russia. To those folks Apistan and Checkmite would be "alternative".

Dickm

[Axtmann]

Dickm most Russian beekeepers treating with OA since the early 80, they can’t afford the expensive chemicals.

We had all the pesticides in use even before the mites arrived the USA.
Sometimes I have a bad feeling and think one of the companies shipped the mites around the world (North America, New Zeeland) to make a few more millions before they have to close the doors in this business.

Here the results from Europe. Apistran - resistant, Amitraz resistant, Perizin (chumaphos) resistant, Bayvarol resistant, Folbex FA resistant.
For example, Folbex FA was in use till 1986 and we have still contamination in wax and wood.

There is no chemical company on the planet that works on a new and better product. The future treatments are natural acids or we have to give up our hobby.

[BjornBee]

I'll have to check the old comments from Axtmann, but I recall a conversation about AFB not long ago, and he mentioned something about beekeepers from where he is from, rotating and changing comb every so many years and because of this they have no AFB. Now I hear that you have wax still contaminated from a chemical use prior to 1986.

I would also like to know how beekeepers in europe, let the mites become resistant to so many chemicals. Did you use them all at the same time? And when did you last test for resistance? Rotating chems on a three year average, makes resistance almost non-existant if used as directed. Changing comb as you touted earlier would also limit any residue remains in the hive, thereby also minimizing trace chemicals in the resistance phase.

I wonder if resistance is just the average story for beekeepers in europe in an over-regulated industry, and therby keeping beekeepers from using all those so-called nasty chemicals?

I know Axtmann is an OA user and speaks highly of this form of treatment. But it says nothing of small-cell, genetics, and other treatments. I personally have seen many hives this year where no treatments have been used in several years, and the mite test were next to nothing. To say that its natural acids or dead hives is a little much.

On one hand I'm glad we still have some chems that work if used properly, but feel efforts in other areas will eventually get us over the hump. I wonder with all the problems and resistance from the europeans as noted, that maybe a word of caution should be taken. Sounds like they screwed themselves many times over the years. I wonder if they know what thier talking about. Obviously they didn't know what they were doing in the past.

[Axtmann]

Well BjornBee there is a big difference between AFB spores and wax contamination from pesticides.

When I talk about the different chemicals against the Varroa I forget to say that we have many different countries in Europe.

Some chemicals where used in Germany, some not but it means nothing.
When France beekeepers treating with Amitraz and their mites are resistant than it’s the same a few km away over the border, even we never used this chemical.
Borders couldn’t stop Mites, and it is the same with the resistance.

We are not using all the same chemicals the same time, but think about, we have Varroa mites since 1977.
I used first Perizin because there was nothing others available and we had not the knowledge we have today.

Beekeepers could buy a ½ liter chumafos for (approx. 15 USD) and it was enough to treat more than thousand colonies. The substance was used to treat mites and flea on sheep and cattle’s and in the pharmacies available.
As soon as BAYER find out it works on Varroa the company recalled everything from the pharmacies. After that, BAYER sold Perizin in little bottles with a low concentration and in the beginning we must pay the same price to treat 5 colonies. … Don’t tell me there are no crooks….

When you treat with Checkmite strips it cost you a lot but the real value of the substance from 1 strip is less than a cent.

When you can buy the liquid chumaphos mix it with water to the right concentration and put it on a strip, cut from a window cleaning rag. Place the rag 5cm x 15 cm, 2 x 6 inches inside, behind the entrance so the bees have to run over it. Beside the contamination (it’s the same like with strips), it kills the mites and for the price of 1 strip you can make more than 50 rags. I’m against chumaphos but it’s for the strip user to save the big money.

There was almost no interest, special from older beekeepers, to go away from Perizin. The government paid for it and it was almost free for registered beekeepers. I have a feeling there was, or still is somebody supporting and working together with Bayer.

The last few years, thousands of beekeepers lost there colonies an almost everybody went to the natural acids. The majority works with formic acid with recipe form different bee institutes and other beekeeper treating different ways with oxalic acid or lactic acid.

New, expensive Thymol products are available and Tests are made on many institutes and the recommendation is, if there is nothing other available it is a treatment against the mites.

Small cells are relative new for almost all beekeepers here, but will see was the future will bring.

>>>>I personally have seen many hives this year where no treatments have been used in several years, and the mite test were next to nothing. To say that its natural acids or dead hives is a little much.<<<<

I have seen this to, special when beekeepers building up new colonies every year. In the beginning they’re only a low infection and in isolated areas it can take long before the first treatment is necessary.
But as soon as the Varroa is established it kills the colonies soon or later.

>>>>Obviously they didn't know what they were doing in the past.<<<<

We are not smarter then the Americans…. we are all the same…. “born stupid” and have to learn.