Thousands of mites.

[?honey?]

I had just a few mites all summer, 6 or so. Then a couple weeks ego I had thousands. I had been doing the FGMO thing for a couple years. When things went bad I added thymol in the fogger and in the hive. Thousands of mites every 2 days. I foged untill some bees come out the front like drunk. Recovered and went back in. PANICKED! and put in Check Mite. Thousands of mites on SSB in 2 hours. I mean more mites then bees. You could not have put the eraser of a pencil down without touching a dead mite. Some places 2 layers thick. Still fogging, if we get a warm day. Not so many mites now.
In your opinions, what is in my bees future???
Any recomendations welcome.
I will study up on OA for next year if I have any bees.

[loggermike]

If the fgmo had been working ,there wouldnt be thousands of mites in the hive.

[Michael Bush]

It's hard to say what the future is. Do you have a lot of bees with shriveled wings? If the mites did a lot of damage to the current bees then they may not winter well. You need healthy young bees to overwinter.

Obviously the FGMO/thymol was killing a lot of them, but obviously the mites were taking over. I hear of people with mites exploding like this who use almost any kind of treatment. Part of it is that mites keep emerging from capped cells. Part of it is the bees keep bringing back mites from other hives that are crashing from mites. But I still don't see an explanation for why the mites increase by 30 or more fold in such a short time. I wish I could understand how that happens. Mites emerging with brood might explain a 3 or 4 fold increase. Mites coming back on robbers mite also explain 3 or 4 fold increase, but where do they increase by 30 to 100 fold in such a short time?

Even if you establish a stable reproduction of mites in your hive (e.g. they are not reproducing any faster than they are dying) you still get mites coming in on robbers. I'm sure this is part of the equation. Often it's a very successful hive that suddenly crashes from mites.

[?honey?]

Logermike; FGMO worked well for 3 years and then seemed to feed the mite. I don't have a clue as to why.
It has been a cool summer. could that have something to do with it?

[loggermike]

I dont know.I am sure re-infestation from dying hives is part of the equation,but certainly isnt the only reason that mites seem to explode some years and not others.Until we get bees that are better able to handle mites,it is going to be a constant struggle to keep them alive.I think I will play around with some of the newer Russians next season and see how they do.

[Axtmann]

In your opinions, what is in my bees future???

If you’re still fogging and not changing to an effective treatment there is no future for your bees!!

That’s only my opinion.

Herbert

[loggermike]

I do know that in California you have to start the season with almost 0 mites or they will explode before you can get the supers off to treat in the Fall.The strips are still working in many areas but oxalic is more natural.Fgmo is a waste of time ,in my very humble opinion.

[topbarguy]

Greetings,

Treat em. The sooner, the better. And treat with a non-contaiminating treatment like oxalic, sucrocide, etc.

Regards
Dennis

[?honey?]

I have put checkmite in the hives.That is the best I could on a "NOW" basis. Oxalic looks like the way to go but that takes preparation time. I will switch to that next spring. I am fogging in addition to the checkmite.

[Jorge]

" Oxalic looks like the way to go but that takes preparation time. "

Nonsense!! It takes drilling a hole in one of your suppers (the rear of the bottom one is my choice) and a trip to your local hardware store to get 2 straight 1/2" 2" long pipes with thread on both sides, one elbow to connect the 2 and a cap to cap one end (all of this in either brass or steel), oxalic acid, also known as wood bleach, plus a propane torch. With a 1 lb oxalic acid, you have acid for several hundred applications, the torch will last you for ever, and the application takes about 2 minutes per hive. (check the details in other oxalic acid postings).
The total for this whole thing will be around $30 plus the drill if you don't have one.

Now that you have checkmite in you may be OK. But an oxalic acid application REALLY CAN be done with very little expense (less than what your checkmite for a single application costed probably) and with very little preparation.

Jorge

[?honey?]

Jorge; I been reading some posts. The preparation is mostly getting the knowledge in my head. I am handy with tools and the like so will have no trouble implementing what I have read.
Would a "double whammie" of Check-mite and oxalic acid, at the same time, do more good then harm? Or would it be better if I wait the 42 days , remove the Checkmite and then do the OX thing? It could be quit cold here by then, Middle MN

[mobees]

Is the mite drop, an accurate method of mite population? I am concerned that there
may be other forces that may mask infestation. Also, has anyone sugar rolled just drones and compared results to worker?

[Axtmann]

Any kind of test is most accurate in late fall when no brood in the colony and during this time there are no drones anymore.

[Michael Bush]

>Is the mite drop, an accurate method of mite population?

It's about as accuarate as anything else. It will be higher on a hot day than a cool day. But a sugar roll is the same concept except you're dislodging the mites with the sugar. Either method does not take into acount what is sealed up in the cells. But if there is brood rearing going one you can assume there are mites in the cells.

>Also, has anyone sugar rolled just drones and compared results to worker?

There will probably be more on the drones, but what would that prove? They are still in the hive.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I am concerned that there
may be other forces that may mask infestation.

True, there are other factors that will affect the count. One is ants. I have observed ants carring off mites from the tray.

This weekend I saw for the first time a lesser wax larve chewing on a mite. I had never noticed it before so I watched for a few minutes. I could not tell what damage it was doing to the mite, perhaps it was just stuck to it, but it hung on for quite a while.

And speaking of wax moths, have we determined wether OA has any effect on the wax moth larva?

[ox]

I'd be interested in that my self. Just opened a stack of menthal treated equipment to find several thousands of moths cocoons. Yuck, what a mess! They even built cocoons on the menthal dispenser 0_0

------------------
the ~ox-{ at www.singingfalls.com (http://www.singingfalls.com)
If this message is edited it is because I have to correct my spelling again. 0_0

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have had good results using Paramoth on my stacks, but I only used it on wax, not PC, I may have to this year though.

[mobees]

I also saw the ants carrying off mites. Also, there are bees that seem to be chewing
of the legs of the mites. Do mites also jump on and off bees in the flowers? I wonder if this is worse on on specific flowers or in pollenation zones where high hive population are local.

[Michael Bush]

>Also, there are bees that seem to be chewing
of the legs of the mites.

There is good behavior to breed for. I've heard of them biting the mites.

>Do mites also jump on and off bees in the flowers?

Not that I've ever heard of.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I've heard of them biting the mites.

I think it was bwangler/topbarguy that posted pictures of bees biting mites on his web site?

[loggermike]

Alois Wallner spent years breeding for the 'killer factor'.
Click on KILLER BEES for pictures of amputated mites. http://berg.heim.at/anden/421357/default_en.htm

[This message has been edited by loggermike (edited October 12, 2004).]

[dickm]

Great post Loggermike,
I want to know if we have any bees in this country that eat mites. This is different than hygenic behavior or SMR.

Dickm

[Robert Brenchley]

Bound to be; I know there was someone breeding for mite damaging behaviour here in the UK, and I have found it myself, though not to any great extent in my current strain. You need to monitor the % of damaged mites falling out, and appearently its fairly easy to breed for.

------------------
Regards,

Robert Brenchley

RSBrenchley@aol.com
Birmingham UK

[This message has been edited by Robert Brenchley (edited October 13, 2004).]

[topbarguy]

Hi Guys,

Check out the photos at:
http://wind.prohosting.com/tbhguy/bee/musin.htm

See if you can find a mite that has not been munched. Every race I've tried on small cell comb has munched mites when they cleanse the broodnest. And it's not just a few. Most hives destroyed well over 90% of the mites that fell.

I had looked for damaged mites before using small cell and think I actually saw a couple using a hand lens. But after the bees were on small cell comb, damaged mites could be seen at 3 feet with my unaided eye.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking if you have to look for missing mite legs, your looking too hard :> )

[This message has been edited by topbarguy (edited October 13, 2004).]

[Robert Brenchley]

Those look typical; great dents in the carapace left by bee mandibles. You do find mites with legs chewed off as well, but the dents, which have a characteristic shape, are the first thing to look for.

------------------
Regards,

Robert Brenchley

RSBrenchley@aol.com
Birmingham UK

[dickm]

I don't now know whether this is a result of small cell, or a genetic trait of the bees. It certainly is interesting. OK. Now I went back to topbarguys site and actually read all the words. A great explication. Apparently it's not genetic as was put forth in a recent ABJ article.
Do you think that My just inserting new small cell foundation for replacement frames or starting packages/swarms on small cell will have any benefit?

Dickm

[This message has been edited by dickm (edited October 14, 2004).]

[topbarguy]

Hi Guys,

I tried just about every commercially available bee in the US and they all destroy the mites when on small cell. The yellower races start in early August and the darker races start the process about a brood cycle later.

Some of the races I monitored include Strachan New World Carniolan and Russian; Miska Italian and Carniolan; Weavers Buckfast, All American, Russian and Harbo(Smart); Bollings Caucasan; USDA Russian; Glenn Carniolan, Russian, Smart; Koenen Italian(Ohio Queen Breeder Stock); York Caucasan; Lusbees and my own mutts. I might have forgotten someone, but I can't remember who? :> ))

The cleansing trait is very pronounced in fall and spring, the first season or so, until the bees get into equilibrium with the mites. Then the bees keep the mites in check with a continous low level amount of broodnest cleansing. The evidence can be seen on the mite trays but will seldom be seen as uncapped brood in the broodnest.

It appears to be a rather common trait amoung the bees available in the US.

Regards
Dennis

[?honey?]

It is about a month since I started this post. Here is how the treatment is now.

The Checkmite has been in 40 days. Today I done the OA thing. I had been seeing fewer mites on the sticky board as the days went by. Today, 3 hours after OA treatment, I found 3 mites. I will check again Th. which is the day to take the check mite out.
I think I have the little buggers taken care of. Now it is just a mater if they have done too much harm that my girls will not winter over.

[mark williams]

Sound's like you may have them whipped ,Sure hope so.good luck & let us know.>>>>Mark

[Axtmann]

OA is a slow killer, wait 5 days and check again. It takes at least 2-3 days before mites dieing from OA vapor.

[?honey?]

I will let you all know what I find Th. wen I take the check-mite out. Forcast is hi of 56 that day. About as good as we will get this time of year.

[?honey?]

Panic time is over;

Took the check-mite out and found only a few mites on the sticky board. They were black. Like maybe dead for some time.
Apears to me I don't have to OA them again.
Hives are heavy and have plenty bees. Guess I am set to wrap them up for winter.

[guatebee]

A question for all who will answer:
if you have a might infested colony thet dies off, or absconds, how do you get rid of the mites left behind so you can use combs on other hives ?
Is bromide gas fumigation an approved way?
should one just fume the combs with oxaloc acid?

Second issue:
if you put regular, large cell bees into small cell foundation will they simply regress and adapt to smaller cell?
what exactly is implied in regressing bees?

I have a very old foundation mill my grandfather used around 1930. It seems to be imprinted with 4.9 or so cell size. I´ll have some foundation made with it to be sure.
Unfortunately, some smart creature tried to make tin foundation and ran a piece of sheet metal through, thus flattening some of the lead cells in the cylinders. What do you think bees will build on those flat spots?

[Michael Bush]

>A question for all who will answer:
if you have a might infested colony thet dies off, or absconds, how do you get rid of the mites left behind so you can use combs on other hives ?

Once the bees are gone, the mites are gone. They do not survive long without the bees. It's not a problem.

>Second issue:
if you put regular, large cell bees into small cell foundation will they simply regress and adapt to smaller cell?

If you have drawn small cell they will simply lay and raise brood in the small cells and you will, in a short time, have regressed bees.

>what exactly is implied in regressing bees?

Mostly that large bees won't DRAW small cell that small the first time, so it takes two shakedowns, or two complete swaps of brood comb to get them regressed. The 5.4mm bees will draw 5.1mm comb. The 5.1mm bees will draw 4.9mm comb. The 4.9mm bees may draw all the way down to 4.6mm combs.

>I have a very old foundation mill my grandfather used around 1930. It seems to be imprinted with 4.9 or so cell size. I´ll have some foundation made with it to be sure.

I'm guessing Dee Lusby would love to have the measurments when you take them. It's simple enough to measure across 10 cells with a metric ruler.

>Unfortunately, some smart creature tried to make tin foundation and ran a piece of sheet metal through, thus flattening some of the lead cells in the cylinders. What do you think bees will build on those flat spots?

Cells. Isn't there SOME shape to them? Dee Lusby's press (from Tom Inustries) has no cell walls and this seems to be an advantage since the bees have a bit more freedom to rework it if they want and are, therefore, more accepting of it.

[guatebee]

Thanks for the input Mike.
From all I´ve been reading on the cell size issue, it seems that seasonal and functional demands dictate the size of cell that bees build. Natural nest sructure will be hard to imitate with a machine, unless imbedding plates or cylinders are made in a tapering fashion.. . small cell at bottom, medcells in the middle, larger cells on top.
But even a foundation thus made would not be according to the true and natural needs of honey bees.
So why not go foundationless altogether ?
There are so many examples of people using starter strips and even cross wires on frames, obtaining beautiful comb. I know sometimes comb shape and sturdyness is not the best, but management and observation to improve that is worthwhile if mite numbers can be effectiveley and naturally dropped.

Are any of the TBH guys out there wiiling to share experiences as to the combs built without and with the aid of foundation ?

[Michael Bush]

>From all I´ve been reading on the cell size issue, it seems that seasonal and functional demands dictate the size of cell that bees build.

Maybe. That is Dennis's theory. Dee, who came up with the concept does not agree. I've seen cut out comb from the feral bees around her and they look like they had foundation. Perfect. All the same small size.

> Natural nest sructure will be hard to imitate with a machine, unless imbedding plates or cylinders are made in a tapering fashion.. . small cell at bottom, medcells in the middle, larger cells on top.

Small works fine all the way across.

>But even a foundation thus made would not be according to the true and natural needs of honey bees.

Possibly.

>So why not go foundationless altogether ?

Mostly I do. Mostly I use wax coated PermaComb for instant regression and foundationless frames after that.

>Are any of the TBH guys out there wiiling to share experiences as to the combs built without and with the aid of foundation ?

Here's some pictures of top bar combs and some of blank starter strip combs and some of foundationless combs.
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm

[guatebee]

Has anyone tried putting plain sheets of wax with no cell size imbedded? I guess this midrib could cut down on irregular comb and bees would have no blueprint to follow except for their own.
Even plasticell -type midribs could be made with plain, flat sheets of plastic.

From what I´ve been reading, it seems that some basics are now being dig out from the neglegt-underestimate-ignore mine pit.
These basics, to my understanding, are:

1. let bees build comb to suit their needs, specially in regards to cell size and cell type distribution within the nest structure.

2. Whenever manipulating frames, beware of the position thy face and respect it. This applies to Housel´s observations on cell bottom, which is NOT THE SAME on bothe faces of a comb.

3. Provide ventilation both at the bottom and at the top, to help bees handle the right environmental conditions for brood raising, honey ripening and overall health.

4. manage wisely and harvest natural honey and pollen to feed the colony back during dearth. Natural, bee gathered food cannot be substituted with other food stuffs, no matter how natural they are.

5. The rest of bee management practices may suit the beekeepers liking and capabilities.

The first four items are a must.

Does anyone think differently? Are there additions to the firs four? I´l be glad to read others´opinions.

[Michael Bush]

>Has anyone tried putting plain sheets of wax with no cell size imbedded?

I have not, but others have and did not like the results.

> I guess this midrib could cut down on irregular comb and bees would have no blueprint to follow except for their own.

It doesn't seem to work out that way.

>Even plasticell -type midribs could be made with plain, flat sheets of plastic.

I think you'll have even worse results with that, but feel free to try it. The bees want a thin midrib with the peaks and valleys of normal comb in the bottom of the cells. The "Y" and inverse "Y" are made up of those rhombi in the bottom of the cells.

>Does anyone think differently? Are there additions to the firs four? I´l be glad to read others´opinions.

I try to feed natural food (real pollen and honey) but since the drought for the last five years and the splits I've made have depleted my supply of honey and pollen I've been feeding sugar syrup and (in the spring) pollen mixed with pollen substitute to stretch it. I think it's a nice goal but when the bees are gathering the dust from the chicken scratch, pollen/pollen substitute mixed is bound to be higher in nutrients than that and it's the best I can do. Honey is nice, but if you don't hve it, sugar syrup is better than the bees starving.

[guatebee]

OK; message received. It´s either small cell foundation or no foundation.
I suppose hobby beekeepers may consider their options, but commercial guys just can´t. There is no way several thousand frames with unpredictable comb buildup can make you any money.

[guatebee]

OK; message received. It´s either small cell foundation or no foundation.
I suppose hobby beekeepers may consider their options, but commercial guys just can´t. There is no way several thousand frames with unpredictable comb buildup can make you any money.

[shoefly]

It appears that small cell may work to fight the Varroa but a uniformaly small cell foundation may not be ideal either. Has anyone tried to make foundation that has a balanced diversity of sizes instead of making it one size fits all?

[Michael Bush]

Dennis has discussed this. Dee seems to have it under control. She leaves about 1/2" or so gap at the bottom of the foundation for the bees to fill in with what they want. This is to reach her target of the natural amount of drone which she says is 10%.

[shoefly]

Would it make sense than to cut a two inch hole into the middle of a frame of drawn out regular size comb so the bees can better build whatever size cell suits them? Am I correct in assuming that the middle of the comb is more likely to be small cell?

Reading the posts it appears that the clue to a more sustainable hive may the diversity of cell sizes. Maybe the smaller size cells triggers or promotes the expression of certain hygienic genes in addition to faster development.

Are there any similar developments in the animal kingdom where smaller size speeds up development time? I think in humans it doesn't matter if you are 4'6" or 6'4". It still takes the same 9 months from conception to birth. It also doesn't seem to make a difference with the "hygienic behavior".

[Michael Bush]

>Would it make sense than to cut a two inch hole into the middle of a frame of drawn out regular size comb so the bees can better build whatever size cell suits them?

It will actually get the comb drawn more quickly because the cluster can communicate better, but I'm not sure it will help otherwise. It will not give you much small cell on a frame of large size cells.

>Am I correct in assuming that the middle of the comb is more likely to be small cell?

From my experience, in the early spring and late summer to fall, yes, during the flow, no.

>Reading the posts it appears that the clue to a more sustainable hive may the diversity of cell sizes. Maybe the smaller size cells triggers or promotes the expression of certain hygienic genes in addition to faster development.

Dee Lusby, who has been doing this longer than anyone, would disagree about the diversity of cell sizes bing the issue. Her bees build VERY consistent small cell worker comb with some drones on the bottom and sometimes a bit up the corners in the bottom. She would say this is because she is fully regressed and has a less hybridized gene pool now. The self built feral comb she gets from bait hives is also very consistent in size. It may be that the rest of us haven't gotten the bees down to a consistent size and genetics yet.

>Are there any similar developments in the animal kingdom where smaller size speeds up development time? I think in humans it doesn't matter if you are 4'6" or 6'4". It still takes the same 9 months from conception to birth. It also doesn't seem to make a difference with the "hygienic behavior".

I don't know. Our ancestors were on the average much smaller and they were very hardy and capable of an awsome amount of work in a day.