here's another Question, since you're all so fast

[revlovejoy]

What a great board! My used hive question got 3 replies in no time at all.

So here's a question that I am sure has been covered many times, and if there's an archive on it, let me know.

I want to keep my bees in an organic manner. I plan to use essential oils for mites. I want to avoid any snythetic chemicals, even apistan strips. I have found the organic beekeeping website from Healing Path, which is a pretty dense site, but I'll get through it.

Anyone an organic keeper here? Some advice? Can I assume antibiotics are not considered organic?

[Michael Bush]

I think you'll find a lot of "organic" keepers here.

I'm using small cell (see the Point Of View section and read the Lusby's writings if you want the detail) and I'm fogging with Food Grade Mineral Oil while getting converted to small cell. The FGMO seems to work well, it suffocates both the Varroa and the Tracheal mites. It doesn't have the knockdown power of Check Mite, but it also doesn't kill the bees and is chemically inert and harmless.

I haven't used antibiotics since the 1970's and have had no problems, but if I had an outbreak of AFB I would be reqired to use it here in Nebraska.

I have some fumadil somewhere that I've never used. I bought it when my bees started "mysteriously" dying and then discovered it was mites. So I never used it.

The essential oils (Peppermint, Lemongrass, Wintergreen...) and organic acids (Oxalic, Formic...) are a bit of a compromise. Some of the organic acids occur in honey naturally and tests say that the amounts added by treatment are not measurable. You could argue that Lemongrass oil is just the same chemical the bees make for Nasanov pheremone. Some honey tastes like mint already. So maybe the essential oils aren't so foriegn to the hive.

In the end, though, I think anything that the bees wouldn't already bring in is foriegn. Sugar syrup is not a natural thing for bees to take in the hive. It's not as acid as honey. Lacks a lot of trace minerals that are in honey (nectar).

I'd have to admit they will gather grain dust when they can't get pollen, but I still prefer to feed pollen instead of soy flour. Basically the only sources they have of grain dust are (hu)man made.

Of course FGMO (food grade mineral oil) is not a natural occuring thing in the hive, but studies show there is no measurable amount left after the bees clean up.

It's hard to argue that essential oils and organic acids are not chemicals when they obviously are. On the other hand they are not complex organic (meaning made of long carbon chains and having interactions with living organisms on a very low level) chemicals like Check Mite or Apistan. The essential oils and organic acids react on a fundemental level.

In the end you have to make your own choices, but whatever you do, I would monitor the mite levels and make sure it is working for you. I lost all my bees to mites last winter in spite of the fact that I used apistan on them. There are no sure things, so be sure to monitor how you're doing and don't just assume.

[Ian]

revlovejoy,
I assume you are a beginner beekeeper, and caught the beekeeping bug like the rest of us, and the way you want to keep bees is your own business. But here is my advice on "keep my bees in an organic manner". You have to understand honeybee behaviour and development before you have success with organic mite treatments. Organic treatments are not as easy and simple as using chemical controls, where it has been scientificaly proven and straight forward recomendations to follow. Simply treat and forget. Now organic treatments , such as Tymol and Formic are getting close to that manner, but you still have to know what is happening inside to get good success from the product.
Perhaps you should establish your hives, learn you disease and treat with recomended products and then experiment with organic methods after you are the wiser. Might prevent alot of frustration off the start and keep you in the bees for the long run

Ian

[revlovejoy]

Thanks again for the quick replies.

Michael- thanks for the details. I agree that nothing can be considered "un-chemical" as even water is H2O - what I wish to avoid is synthetics.

As for bees bringing in something that wouldn't be native, it's not as much a concern to me as the snythetics issue.

And the anti-biotics thing is something I sit on the fence with. They can be a powerful tool, but the overuse that leads to resistance is what concerns me - in humans, in chickens and other mass produced livestock, etc....

I just don't want to undertake medicating with something synthetic or anti-biotic as a regular event, while I'm not absolutley opposed to use as needed. I'm no militant- you should see what I eat.

Ian - You're assumption is right, I am a newbie. I appreciate what you're saying about getting started with easier methods, but a concern I have is that one hive is for an organic farm co-op of which I am a member, and organic methods is a criteria for getting this going.

[Tia]

Since we're talking about essential oils, has anyone tried Honey B Healthy? I have--it smells good enough to eat and I gave it to my brand-new hives last spring. They ate it right up and increased so rapidly that both hives swarmed in less than a month despite the fact that they had started out with two deeps each! After a while, however, I started discovering quite a few dead bees so I stopped using it and the bees stopped dying! Now I don't know if the Honey B Healthy was the problem or if this situation coincided with the blooming of the Carolina Jessamine which I've only recently learned is poisonous to honey bees! Has anyone else had this experience?

[Michael Bush]

The problem I noticed with HBH is robbing. This could be the cause of your dead bees. The bees go insane for it and if there is a dearth at the time I feed it they will rob each other in a frenzy. I think I won't use it again unless there is some nectar available. It is nice for improving acceptance of plastic foundation and for swarm lure. The Lemongrass oil smells just like Nasonov Pheromone.

[Tia]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Michael! I had only two hives at the time and it was the weak hive that suffered the loss. Good call. Thanks.

[dragonfly]

I use an equivalent of HBH as a feeding in Spring and Fall, and I use screened bottom boards. So far, that's the only methods I have used for pest and disease control So far, so good.

[Tia]

That's really interesting, Dragonfly! I was using HBH for brood buildup only; didn't know it worked for pest control! I'll have to resume using it and keep entrance reducers on the hives to preclude robbing!

[Michael Bush]

That's why they call it Honey Bee HEALTHY. http://www.bee-commerce.com/download/hbhinfo.pdf

[Tia]

Duuhhhhh. . .

[Daisy]

I'm researching the possibility of useing some orange eo this year on one hive...

For mites..

Maybe as a spray for the bees.. fine mist, low dose.

If anyone can add information on this let me know..

[Axtmann]

Oh my god Daisy why your testing Agent Orange on your bees? It is an herbicide used from your country in the Vietnam War. http://www.lewispublishing.com/orange.htm

[loggermike]

Daisy is determined to irritate her poor bees to death.But I can understand it.I put my bees 150 miles away where they are safe from my bothering them,well for anther couple weeks anyway.
There was something a couple years ago about using some citrus product to kill mites.Cant remember the details(it probably killed all the bees)

[Michael Bush]

I think someone was using grapfruit rind for smoking them to kill the mites. It was somewhat effective, but not enough for people to pursue it.

[dragonfly]

The stuff I read about using grapefruit was about using the leaves for smoking the hives. It supposedly caused a high mite knock-down rate, but I never heard of or read of any further research. I have considered using grapefruit essential oil as part of my feeding regimen, but what I am using is working so far, so I will leave it alone for now.

[bdloving]

Dragonfly said:
I use an equivalent of HBH

What are you using as equivalent?

[Michael Bush]

The recipe has been posted several times. I just posted it again recently, but don't have it handy at the moment. It's Pepermint oil, Lemongrass oil and lecithin.

[dragonfly]

This is the recipe I use:
5 cups water
2 1/2 pounds sugar
15 drops spearmint essential oil
15 drops lemongrass oil
1/8-1/4 tsp lecithin granules dissolved in very hot water

The worse part of making the mixture is dissolving the granules in the water. I always microwave about a half cup of the water to dissolve the lecithin, then strain it through a very fine strainer or cheese cloth.
The bees love it.