Used hives and Foulbrood

[revlovejoy]

Hi there bee people. I'm brand spanking new to this hobby, all I've done is read websites, talk to people, and read Beekeeping for Dummies. I plan to start 2 hives Spring 2004.

I live in an area where it seems to be a lot of people USED TO keep bees. The PA Dutch are thrifty people, and a lot of the depression era generation were real DIY'ers. So I know that if I look hard enough, I could find a number of used hive boxes/parts in barns and garages and at auctions. I figured I'd give myself through February until I bought all new woodenware.

But in reading about the big threats to bee health, my one resource has warned that if you buy used equipment, and the bees ever had foulbrood, the spores remain. No way to clean it.

A tiny part of me says - well, the book ayuthor also owns the largest online supplier of bee keeping equipment, so he may be biased, but the other 99% of my brain says: don't buy used, why risk it? I also keep reef fish, and I know that if you buy tanks or pumps from someone who had used copper based medications, you're stuck with that poison almost forever.

So, can anyone here give me any further food for thought or guidance on this issue? Play it safe and buy all new? Or, if a hive is unused 10 years or more, can it still harbor problems? Would I even want a hive that old?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

[BjornBee]

Yes the spores can live for 10 years and many more.

You can probably hold off the spores/desease with ALL new equipment. If your only ever going to have a couple hives this may be the way to go. State inspectors, hives brought into an area for pollination, and other beekeepers can all spread this desease. In my opinion, all hives eventually will have the spore.

The reality is that there are not many (if any) beekeepers who don't buy used equipment. Its hard to pass up good deals on used equipment. Being smart and knowing what your buying and possible the history of the equipment is helpful. Burning old frames and scraping/scorching boxes will help. I would not use old comb.

Good hive management, site selection, good young queens, proper ventilation, and a host of other items come into play with suppressing the foulbrood. It is an opportunity desease that take hold in weak hives. You can see it when early spring cold snaps cause dead brood, or creates moisture problems, and when the hive is not healthy. Many hives have the spore and never have outbreaks. There is a reason for this.

As a last effort, treatment with chemicals, on a TREATMENT BASIS is an option. Knowing, diagnosing/identifying, is your best defense.

Foulbrood is to me a secondary concern to be dealt with as it arises.

[Iowabeeman]

The combs are the big problem as far as contracting foulbrood goes. The scale left by the diseased larve has a multitude of spores. We don't worry much about the woodenware.

[ChellesBees]

As a beginner, new equipment is safer. U of MN class recommends it also, as would most classes I'll bet. When you start with new equipment, and package bees, you don't have to juggle quite so many things at once. The learning curve is steep the first couple years.
That being said, I inherited tons of stuff from the farm where I used to work. I scraped and cleaned the boxes, and did start with all new frames and foundation. After three years, I can assume any problems are mine now.
I did have one swarm move into a hive with old comb in it, and while it has been one of my best hives, it also did have my only case of EFB. I treated once for it, and all has been well since then.
If I had to purchase everything, I would have bought the new boxes to start with, and added used stuff after I understood my bees better.

[revlovejoy]

What a fast group! 3 replies in a couple hours!

Thanks for all the input. I had been leaning toward all new equipment anyway, though the cheapskate in me was fighting it. I think that being a new keeper, used equipment might be more hassle than its worth.

That being said, I appreciate the perspectives that the other care concerns are what help prevent the disease. I'm all about learning prevention.

[Michael Bush]

I try to see it as a matter of trust. If I know the person I'm getting used equipment from and I know they just cut back or the mites killed the bees, then I don't worry too much. If I don't know them or if I get the shifty eye from them, I assume it's risky.

But it's always a risk. They have been trying to determine exactly how long spores are viable. They started this experiment 70 years ago and so far they are still viable. The assumption at this point is that the spores last forever.

"You pays your money and you takes you chances"

[Ian]

if you want to keep bees in an organic manner, then avoid used equipment at all costs. It is very hard to remove or suppress AFB from your hive using organic mettods, besides burning equipment

ian

[Robert Brenchley]

It probably depends how much AFB there is in the hive. I think people just don't spot the early stages; a large (for the UK) beekeeper not far away from me had the largest outbreak recorded in the UK last year, with over 100 hives infected. He must have been spreading it around his colonies for a long time without seeing it. If you cathc it in the early stages, shakedowns might well stop it. This is heresy in the UK incidentally, where burning is compulsory by law. Its been shown that hygeinic bees are resistant, so if you want to avoid chemicals that would be a good route to take; look for resistant stock, test your colonies, and breed from the most resistant, if other characteristics are equal.

EFB is regarded as a very serious disease over here, and as a stress disease in the States, I incline to the latter view. Again, hygeinic bees ought to be able to cope with it.

------------------
Regards,

Robert Brenchley

RSBrenchley@aol.com
Birmingham UK

[Tia]

Our state provides fumigation services at a very low cost (I think it's $1 per box). They pick up and return after the boxes have been fumigated. The only thing is you may have to wait a while because they only operate the "fumigator" which it is chock-full. The other alternative is the old fashioned (dangerous) way: stick them in a boiling vat of water mixed with lye. My teacher (a veteran beekeeper) showed me how to do this and we did lots & lots of his old boxes and frames one day. Just be careful because the lye makes the boiling water jump which it's poured in! Either of these methods will clean our the foulbrood.

[Michael Bush]

>If you cathc it in the early stages, shakedowns might well stop it. This is heresy in the UK incidentally, where burning is compulsory by law.
This depends on the state. Quite a few states require burning the hive and the bees. Some states allow you to treat with TM. Some require you to burn the equipment but let you shake down the bees.

>Our state provides fumigation services at a very low cost (I think it's $1 per box). They pick up and return after the boxes have been fumigated. The only thing is you may have to wait a while because they only operate the "fumigator" which it is chock-full. The other alternative is the old fashioned (dangerous) way: stick them in a boiling vat of water mixed with lye. My teacher (a veteran beekeeper) showed me how to do this and we did lots & lots of his old boxes and frames one day. Just be careful because the lye makes the boiling water jump which it's poured in! Either of these methods will clean our the foulbrood.
While the boiling lye is a popular treatment and probably kills some of the spores and/or removes them from the boxes, I don't think it's 100% effective. Fumigation and radiation are the only 100% effective methods. Burning out the boxes is also popular, but is probably not 100% effective either. (see ABC XYZ of Beekeeping for instructions on burning out boxes)