Queen Excluder and Drawn Comb

[Tulipwood]

I have heard it said that you should only use a queen excluder with drawn comb above, not new foundation. Is this right?

[Michael Bush]

I don't use them at all. But if you really insist on using one, you will have to entice the bees to go through it. If you have all the same size frames (as I do with all mediums) then you can bait them through it with some brood in the box above the excluder. If you don't have all the same size you might have trouble getting them in the habit of going through the excluder. In that case, I would put the box on without it and after they are happily working the box, THEN put on the excluder. Of course, I think you'd be better off to put the excluder in the garage and wait until you really need it for something.

[Mike Gillmore]

Roger,

You will find strong opinions... for and against... using queen excluders.

However, if you have decided that you are going to use them, they should go on when there is a good nectar flow. A super with foundation only has worked fine for me, but sometimes you need to coax them up into the super.

First add the super without the excluder and give them a week or two to move up and start working on the comb. By then they should have started to draw the comb and you will find nectar or maybe eggs and larvae. Then you can brush all of the bees off of the frames to be sure the queen is in the brood boxes, add the queen excluder, then the super.
This should jump-start activity in the super and they will move up just fine with the excluder in place.

[bee whisper]

That is correct.I wish someone would have told me that!I put the excluder on put on my supper of new foundation on,and waited,and waited,and waited!Then It happened my great idea!I had a great idea!put the supper at the entrance!It sounded great.But reality is somewhat differant!That is more bees than I care to work with,because they really don't want to be worked with!Also ever time that you want to check it,you have to take the whole hive apart.It really isn't a good idea!Put the supper on top! If you can put a frame of honey in with it as bait,or rubb some honey on the foundation,or sugar water.Wait untill the bees are really pulling it out,befor putting on the excluder.Remember the queen can't really lay eggs on the foundation untill it is drawn out anyway!Good luck!

[RAlex]

I have and have not used QE`s for comb. What I have found is that if you put your comb frames too close to the brood box they will lay in it or put drone cells there. The solution is to make the 1st super drawn foundation and the next super can be comb honey as once they fill the drawn comb the queen is reluctant to cross the capped honey to lay ( usually ). If you choose to use QE`s then mix in drawn comb to get the girls upstairs... my 3 cents smile.gif ....Rick

[RSUCHAN]

When you run a lot of bees the last thing you want are bees & hatching bees in the honey house. We have done several tests over the years and this year included & have found less than a 10% difference in total pounds taken off at harvest time with or with out an excluder. But we always feel & can see we have better bees going into the winter. Yes you must have real good bees in the box to go thru an excluder, but that is a whole other story. Yes we have found that different races of bees & different queen breeders queens come in to play also as to who will go thru an excluder easier & faster than others. No you do not want to draw more than 20% foundation above an excluder. No you do not want to raise comb honey above an excluder. Baiting works well to get a hive that is down on numbers to go thru the excluder also. I am getting close to the 30 year mark in this crazy business & have no idea how anyone would run any number of bees with out excluders.

[gingerbee]

This is weird, but my Italians work fine with the excluder on, they are thick in the honey super and are making honey like crazy right now!

Also, why would you not want to make comb honey above the excluder?

[ October 20, 2006, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Gingerbee ]

[iddee]

edited out

[ October 22, 2006, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: iddee ]

[RSUCHAN]

We have been raising up to 125 supers of comb honey a year for the past 15 years or so. Never have we had to use an excluder. Kelly's 7-11 foundation helps a whole bunch as the queen will not lay in the smaller cell size. Proper management in comb honey production is a must. you can't just throw the super or super's and forget about them.

[Michael Bush]

>Kelly's 7-11 foundation helps a whole bunch

Yes it does.

> as the queen will not lay in the smaller cell size.

But they are NOT smaller cells. They are 5.6mm cells as opposed to worker brood foundation that is 5.4mm and drone foundation that is 6.6mm

[Jim Fischer]

The queen excluder has been blamed for many
things by many people, the blame consistently
coming from beekeepers with fewer hives and
fewer years of experience.

If you have to "bait" frames above a queen
excluder, or if you feel that the bees are
"reluctant" to go through a queen excluder,
the actual reason is more likely that you
do not have a strong hive, and you should
have fed your bees in early spring.

The internet has allowed many myths about
beekeeping to be presented as fact by beekeepers
who spend more time online than working their
hives, and there seems to be a correlation
between the following misconceptions, all
presented with a smug sense of superiority:
</font> Not feeding hives</font> Not smoking bees</font> Not using foundation</font> Not using queen excluders</font> Overwintering solely on honey</font> Never trapping pollen for spring feeding</font> Letting hives supersede</font> Avoiding sophisticated management, such as
caging the queen just before the major
spring blooming period</font> "Breeding" one's own queens without a
decent number of drone colonies</font> Adding supers of drawn comb one-by-one,
rather than all at once, as early as possible</font> Only harvesting once, rather than as early
and as often as possible</font> Avoiding regular monitoring/sampling for
pests and diseases, and instead placing
faith in some "magic bullet" approach that
promises to allow them to avoid the tedious
work of sampling, monitoring, and record-keeping</font>
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea.
The central theme here is "weak hive".
Hobby beekeepers have many motivations other
than maximizing production and profits, and
most of them have to do with "bragging rights"
rather than efficient and profitable operations.

The reason that this issue is such a "controversy"
is that there are many opinions that queen excluders
are a "problem", but no controlled studies that
show any consistent negative impact, and some
have shown an actual increase in harvests when
queen excluders are used in combination with
"compressed" hives, where the brood chamber
area is reduced, and bees are driven or shaken
down into the reduced brood chamber area
prior to a flow.

And when beekeepers have opinions that are not
supported by controlled studies, or are directly
contradicted by controlled studies, one then
has "controversy", where beekeepers keep repeating
mere dogma in hope of somehow making it become
fact through simple repetition, and new beekeepers
are taken in by "personal experience" that may
well consist of multiple years of beekeeping, but
often would more accurately be described as
annual repetition of the same mistakes every year
in a stubborn adherence to dogma and supersitition ,
unsupported by nary a shred of objective fact. smile.gif

To each his own.

Me? I've got a big stack of queen excluders,
and they get used.

[soupcan]

Thanks for the support Jim & the truth. My son & I both just shake our heads at some of B/S that we read on the internet. Yes there are some helpfull tips but darn few most of the time. The best teachers most of the time are the large operators. I know there is a group of beeks that label us as the bad guys. This is fine. We did not get to were we are at today with our numbers by sitting on our arss & acting stupid. Yes I will admit we have made some mistakes over the 25 plus years, but darn few.
If I kept bees today the same way I did some 25 years ago I would not be in business to write about it. Yes the internet is a great thing when used properly. Hands on experience working with a good beekeeping operator will still by far beat any web site or chat room. Trust me. I have bought out a good many small guys over the years that quit due to improper information or lack of knowledgeable guidance.

[Michael Bush]

&gt;presented with a smug sense of superiority:

An interesting phrase coming from you.

I find this list very intriguing since many of these fall into the category of issues that have been discussed by beekeepers for a hundred years with people on both sides of the issue. Others are things I've never actually heard anyone suggest at all. Let's look at the list:

&gt; a. Not feeding hives

I know of no one who has suggested that you shouldn't feed hives when they need feeding. The only disagreement is when do they need feeding.

&gt; b. Not smoking bees

I do hear some people occasionlly suggest this. I figure they've never had hot bees before and/or haven't figured out how much difference a even a tiny bit of smoke can make. But I do know some very experienced beekeepers (at least in years and number of hives) who don't smoke them.

&gt; c. Not using foundation

As the wax supply gets more and more contamniated, I predict that even you will began to think it's a good idea. Obviously you've never tried it.

&gt; d. Not using queen excluders

It would be silly for me to assemble the huge list of respected and renowed beekeepers over the years who thought excluders a bad idea. Of course you can also assemble a long list who thought them a great idea.

&gt; e. Overwintering solely on honey

Again, the list of agreement would be long. I'll just pick one for now. Eva Crane.

&gt; f. Never trapping pollen for spring feeding

I'm sure a lot of people don't to it. But I don't know of anyone who thinks its not a good idea.

&gt; g. Letting hives supersede

And this is bad in what way?


&gt; h. Avoiding sophisticated management, such as
caging the queen just before the major
spring blooming period

Again, I don't believe I've heard anyone say it's a bad idea. Many people are content to just let the bees do what they do. Some want more control. Certainly you can get better crops and less mites with less chemicals by confining the queen at this particular time.

&gt; i. "Breeding" one's own queens without a
decent number of drone colonies

What if the drones you want are already there?


&gt; j. Adding supers of drawn comb one-by-one,
rather than all at once, as early as possible

Who has sugested this? No one I know of.

&gt; k. Only harvesting once, rather than as early
and as often as possible

People do what they have time to do.

&gt; l. Avoiding regular monitoring/sampling for
pests and diseases, and instead placing
faith in some "magic bullet" approach that
promises to allow them to avoid the tedious
work of sampling, monitoring, and record-keeping

I know of no one who is suggeting avoiding monitoring. Some have reached a stable point and have not found it necessary anymore.

[Dick Allen]

&gt;&gt;presented with a smug sense of superiority:
Well, I was going to pass on that one :D

but since Michael Bush has responded:
&gt;An interesting phrase coming from you.

.... I'll have to agree with him

Sometimes Dr. Fischer, you just make me roll on the floor. Of all the people who are pointing fingers.... tongue.gif

btw, I also use queen excluders......

[Mike Gillmore]

"Hobby beekeepers have many motivations other
than maximizing production and profits, and
MOST OF THEM have to do with "bragging rights"
rather than efficient and profitable operations."

Hummmm.... With all due respect,
is there "controlled study" data to back this statement up??

[Dick Allen]

&gt;is there "controlled study" data to back this statement up??

Likely it's now going through the pre-publication "peer reviewed" process. :rolleyes:

[George Fergusson]

&gt;The internet has allowed many myths about
beekeeping to be presented as fact by beekeepers
who spend more time online than working their
hives, and there seems to be a correlation
between the following misconceptions, all
presented with a smug sense of superiority:

A correlation between "the following misconceptions" and *what*? Your list of so-called misconceptions don't really correlate with each other that I can see so I assume you're suggesting that beekeepers who spend more time on line than working their hives are more likely to promote one or more of these so-called misconceptions.

That must be it. How unusual for you not to be painstakingly concise!

So, you're talking about me Jim! I'm a new, inexperienced beekeeper that *definitely* spends more time on line than working my bees but all the evidence suggests that my bees are happier, healthier, and more productive because of it. I would suggest that the time one spends with ones bees should be considered qualitatively and not just quantitatively i.e., how is that time being spent? Is it productive, well-spent time or are you just annoying the bees?

So given that I'm one of those new beekeepers that spends more time on line than keeping their bees, allow me to address your list of misconceptions:

a. Not feeding hives

I believe in feeding if and when they need it and then only as much as they need.

b. Not smoking bees

I smoke my bees. I haven't heard many new beeks objecting to smoking their bees. Some suggest spraying sugar water on instead. Now that is a silly concept! Plugs up their little spiracles!

c. Not using foundation

I use foundation, real wax, fully wired, not plastic. I do intend to let my bees start drawing more of their brood comb from scratch however because I think they like to do it.

d. Not using queen excluders

I have a few dozen queen excluders of various types and they're really handy to have around. I've used them as a last resort to find elusive queens, for queen rearing, and for a few days to keep a newly hived swarm from absconding. I haven't felt the need as yet to use them for their primary purpose of keeping the queens out of the honey supers but I imagine I'll try some next year, or the year after just to see what happens.

e. Overwintering solely on honey

I assume you're talking removing overwintering honey and replacing it with sugar syrup. Why would I want to do that? I've already stated that I believe in feeding bees if and when they need it, and insufficient stores for overwintering is one of those situations where I would likely decide to feed, usually. I might just split my weak hives and make up nucs with new queens from desirable, more productive stock. I don't need bees that can't cut their own mustard.

Perhaps you're suggesting that white sugar is superior bee food. I figure, if God had meant for bees to eat white sugar, he'd have given them the capacity to produce white sugar. God made sugar cane for that purpose, he designed bees to make honey. Sorry if I've waved a red flag in your general direction smile.gif

f. Never trapping pollen for spring feeding

I'd love to do this, but after 2 seasons, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I plan to. It's a time and priority thing and I haven't had the time nor has it been a priority.

g. Letting hives supersede

I'm still undecided on this but as a basic principle I think supercedure is a fine thing.

h. Avoiding sophisticated management, such as
caging the queen just before the major
spring blooming period

I'm all in favor of sophisticated management techniques. That I haven't yet had ocassion to perform that particular sophisticated management technique yet is primarily yet another "time and priority" thing (see above). I'm also still sorting out my own particular local conditions of weather, climate, bloom, etc., which would affect the timing of such sophisticated management techniques. In the mean time I'm firming up my grasp and understanding of some of the more basic elements of beekeeping. One doezn't become a Jim Fischer overnight does one?

i. "Breeding" one's own queens without a
decent number of drone colonies

I bought no queens this year. My colonies are all headed by locally reared and locally bred queens. The drones I want my queens mating with are already here, apparently in sufficient numbers, to do the job. You would have me instead rely on supposedly reputable queen breeders from a geographic region vastly different from my own?

There's also way more to this issue than I'm prepared to delve into now. Suffice it to say that I believe that **** few beekeepers know how to, or are in a position to, effectively saturate their mating areas with drones from their own colonies- and that includes many of the so-called reputable queen rearers in this country.

j. Adding supers of drawn comb one-by-one,
rather than all at once, as early as possible

This year I put all the drawn comb I could muster on my hives, as early as was practicable. My supply of good drawn comb is small- a condition I expect I will remedy in due time.

k. Only harvesting once, rather than as early
and as often as possible

I will take no honey before it's time. I will take honey off as time permits. In reality, I'll take honey when I actually make some smile.gif

l. Avoiding regular monitoring/sampling for
pests and diseases, and instead placing
faith in some "magic bullet" approach that
promises to allow them to avoid the tedious
work of sampling, monitoring, and record-keeping

That statement does not describe me.

[bee whisper]

Hey for most of us beekeeping is a hobbie!Not a business,and for sure not a Religion! You guys need to lighten up.Stop and think!Is this going to matter in 100 years?

[Mike Gillmore]

You are right, bee whisper. There are many hobbyist beekeepers, including myself, who simply enjoy keeping bees for their own personal fulfillment. However, a part of that satisfaction for me is nurturing healthy colonies and ending up with a good honey crop.
In my case at least, funds are limited and it is critical that I manage my hives with sound practices to achieve my goals. This is the only "hobby" I participate in that actually allows me to have a great time and at the end of the day I end up with more money in my pocket then when I started, and pays for itself.

You're probably right about lightening up. When the "wet blanket" fell, this post should have ended.

Tulipwood asked:
&gt;I have heard it said that you should only use a queen excluder with drawn comb above, not new foundation. Is this right?

This post has drifted a bit, Roger. Did you get your answer?

[Jerry J]

Thank You, Dr. Fisher. I was preparing to leave BeeSource but now I think I'll stick around. Your post really hits the nail on the head.
Thank You Jerry Kern

[Joel]

I agree with the honorable beekeeper from NE. If you run any number of hives without queen excluders you will be uncapping brood along with honey. We ran 50 2 queen units through much of the 90's w/o excluders because of the statments they reduce the crop. The bee consitently ran brood up through 7 honey supers in the middle and honey on the outside until fall when the queen was driven down. It amde it difficult to isolate varieties and we always had brood in the honey house. The simple answer for us was to leave and entrance (1 shoney super jogged back 1/4 in) to allow field workers entrance above the excluder while still containting the brood to the brood chamber. We have run 100+ the past 4-5 yrs without and our average crop has not changed. If we have comb to be drawn we put them on strong hives at the beginning of a heavy flow with a super of drawn comb above the foundation. We draw out 20-30 supers (Brood and Honey) every spring this way with excellant results. we did not run excluders when we did basswood boxes but do on cut comb honey which we run in 8 frame equipment.

I find it incredible that anyone on this post could suggest Jim would be smug ;)

[ October 22, 2006, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]

[strider34117]

I didn't know beekeepers were this opinionated. LOL

[strider34117]

On a serious note, it seems as though you all have vast experience to back up your points of view concerning excluders. My bees aren't doing a whole lot concerning the super I just put on. So I'm thinking that I may just as well smear a little honey on the foundation and see what happens. What do I have to lose?

[Dwight]

HA HA HA HA HEE HEE HEE, Jim I think you like to get people stirred up and you are VERY GOOD at it!!
You missed one very important item on your list of "Bad" advice......Don't use Bee Quick to harvest honey. LOL