2006 almond pollination scenario

[JBJ]

I have been hearing conflicting reports of the bee supply being long from some and short from others. Anybody care to comment?
JBJ

[Gregg]

I heard there was a glut of bees suddenly in January, with a lot of colonies still available to rent. I was in Fresno, CA the week of Jan. 14 - 20. Some subsequent lowering of pollination prices.

[JBJ]

Who was the source of this info? I spoke with a large grower today who rented 7000 colonies @ 150 each. He mentioned that he had heard nothing about a surplus, however I still know people wanting to place bees. I wonder if there will be a last minute frenzy like last year?
JBJ

[Nick Noyes]

I don't think there are large #'s of unrented hives. I could be wrong but I hope I am right.

[Laurence Hope]

As of today, there were 20 - 30,000 colonies listed as available for pollination on the list and board at the Dadant branch in Fresno. Most were listed for $150.00. Also, there are many (possible duplicates) listed in the Fresno Bee.

[Bob Harrison]

Interesting situation in California. Not sure exactly what's going on. If I were to guess (based on numerous calls to California) I would say a group of California almond growers are trying to lower almond pollination fees by several methods.
I do know for a fact the Adee family placed a large number of hives last fall for $150 a hive. I also know for a fact the Adee family (Brown's Honey Farm} is having trouble finding pollination for hives. The reason given for the problem is trying to get growers to pay over 80-90 per hive.
I know for a fact two Missouri loads being sent to Brown's Honey Farm (broker) have been put on hold unless placed at the 89/90 fee.
I also know of over 15,000 hives in California not yet under contract.
What is going to complicate and cause the growers which are sitting back hoping to get cheaper hives is the new problems at the border crossing concerning the new "Q" status for small hive beetle.
All those on this list which put out BS (a month ago)about California not enforcing the new rules you and your broker contacts were wrong.
My full report will be in an article in the March issue of the American Bee Journal.
In short many loads have been turned around for SHB! A load from New York was turned around for a single bag worm. One of the loads from Florida I write about in my article was turned for two DEAD SHB found on the truck bed.
Some loads are being allowed to enter but a 30 day hold is placed on the load while the load is treated for SHB which makes the load of no use for almond pollination if stopped this week or next.
Why would you enter to pay to have your load unloaded, pay for California to treat your hives, NOT GET MONEY FOR ALMOND POLLINATION, find another truck back, pay to have your hives reloaded and neted and sent back? Get the big picture?

California apiary inspection has dropped the ball and the whole situation is crazy!

All commercial out of state migratory beekeepers asked for was a clear explanation of the new rules and all they got was BS from the California apiary inspection dept!

It is what it is! I am not going to try and make the situation look better but only report the facts as they happened.

I have been directly involved with the problem. I was in Florida (have been on the road for a month) to document the first two loads being sent from Florida to California under the new certification process. You can read about the step by step process and the turning around of one load and the entry into California of the other in the March issue of ABJ.

California has the right to do what it wants at its borders BUT it owes the beekeeping industry and the apiary inspection service from other states CLEAR explanation of the rules it intends to enforce AND THE METHODS IT WILL USE.

[suttonbeeman]

BOb has hit the head on the nail perfect! Also one load was either given the choise of returning to its orgin or 30 day hold under quarteen. NOW this was because shb strips were on bottom boards and they said they couldnt enter with them in....had to treat under THEIR supervision! what a mess....someone needs to give a attitude adjustment to some of the idiots with their heads stuck where the sun dont shine or better yet maybe be better if California fell off into ocean!

[suttonbeeman]

BOb has hit the head on the nail perfect! Also one load was either given the choise of returning to its orgin or 30 day hold under quarteen. NOW this was because shb strips were on bottom boards and they said they couldnt enter with them in....had to treat under THEIR supervision! what a mess....someone needs to give a attitude adjustment to some of the idiots with their heads stuck where the sun dont shine or better yet maybe be better if California fell off into ocean!

[Tim Vaughan]

Good thing I'm only going one hour up the road...

[Bob Harrison]

Thanks Rick,
I also thank Jerry Hayes (and his inspectors) for letting me follow the whole process. Jerry provided me with all the paperwork sent by California. Was worth the trip to Florida!

I also thank Michael Brown (Missouri state apiary inspection) for his efforts.

Both tried to translate the new rules but each time we contacted California the rules changed.

Monday I will write the story after looking over my notes and looking at all the conversation & emails between the Florida & Missouri inspection departments and the California apiary inspection department.

My only hope is that if the pen is truely mightier than the sword than when the story is told California will be embarrased enough to correct the situation for next almond season.

Did the Florida inspection service call you Rick and tell you about the SHB border problem? Jerry said they called everybody even considering doing almond pollination.

Jerry Hayes & Michael Brown were very professional and tried hard to help Kennedy Honey Farms get their loads into California and the last load released.

As I said a month ago "the border is the last place you want to be at trying to get the rules changed".

Jerry Hayes tried twice to get the load released.
He went right to the top and asked. In fact he called me and told me the load had been released. I was very happy as was Jerry so I called Kennedy Honey Farms to share the good news. They told me about the hold. Back to Jerry. Jerry said can't be as they said nothing about a hold. Jerry called California. Jerry then called me saying I was right. We both talked to Kennedy Honey Farms and the load was returned to Florida for a find of two DEAD small hive beetles. None alive!

hard to believe!

[jean-marc]

Hard to believe indeed. Bob, do believe that these regulations could give beekeepers cold feet, that will ultimately lead to shortages? I know that I would have second thoughts. Tell me, while you were away, with how many loads were you involved with? What are the percentages of the loads that have to be treated or are being refused entry? This way an out of state beekeeper has some sort of idea of the kind of risks he is going to face, especially for those cominf from the east coast where small hive beetles are known to be found.

I'm sure those scale guys will be very proud of themselves and self-congratulatory for finding SHB on trucks coming from areas known to have SHB.(I'm assuming they are like scale guys over here in Canada) I'm sure they'll go out of their way to find them and feel good about how they saved California from the dreaded SHB.

It seems that in beekeeping their is always something in the way from making financial progress in the entreprise. Just when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel you soon find out it's a freight train.

Godd luck and best wishes to all trying to make it to California.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc

[JBJ]

So is there a surplus or a shortage? I guess it is all relative to each situational circumstance. For the grower whose load of bees just got turned around there is at least a spot shortage but for the beekeepers waiting around to pick up the scraps there may be a temporary spot surplus until the contract is signed.
I have also heard of loads from the South getting turned around and loads from the North arriving with severe losses so there will be at least some scraps to go around. I have also heard rumors of growers not signing in order to solicit a perceived surplus in the pollination market to drive prices down. The word collusion almost comes to mind however without hard evidence these are just rumors. I do know of some beekeepers that have panicked and are renting for less than I did last year, which is a trend I do not want to participate in. Hang in there guys; don’t cut your own throat.
As to this SHB in California situation, it is well known fact that SHB was brought into Ca during the almonds last year (and likely before) and then distributed and far and wide after the bloom. So in my opinion the restrictions now are futile and serve no purpose but to help push the pollination market pendulum toward the shortage side of the equation and since I have SHB free hives to place this suits me just fine at the moment, not that I would wish any beekeeper to suffer at the hands of useless bureaucracy.
JBJ

[peggjam]

I see options that maybe you can't see.

1)Take your hives to CA in the fall, rent holding yards and leave them there until pollination time.

2)Don't bother taking any hives at all. Let the growers suffer for a year or two, and then deal with them on your terms.

3)Have your hives in CA year round. No border crossing.

If there is this much trouble getting into the orchards, then you arn't making any money and all it is is a hassle, why bother. When they have a few crop failures, you'd be surprized how smooth things will get for those willing to make the trip to CA. I don't even like almonds, so I could care less if they get pollinated. Just my .02, for what it's worth.

[Trevor Mansell]

I just talked to a beekeeper from here goining out there, they stoped him at the border for shb but after the county inspector said it was no problem they let him go thru. It seems that alot of beekeepers arent doing there homework before they get to the border.

[Bob Harrison]

Trevor,
You are correct but what the beekeeper did not tell you is a hold is placed on the bees for 30 days while treatment for SHB is done. The bees can not to be moved until treatment is complete and a final inspection made. Tom Kennedy said he would get on a plane and fly to California to treat for SHB. The state said NO. That they would have the load treated and the expense charged to Tom.
Why would Tom want to enter the state, unload his hives, pay the state to treat for SHB (which are going to get right back in when he returns home)not be able to rent his hives for pollination as they will be held in a holding yard for thirty days ,find a truck back and then pay to have the load reloaded and neted?
In other words Trevor why enter if you can not get paid for almond pollination? If the state of California had not dropped the ball and had informed beekeepers of the hold then loads could have been shipped 45 days in advance. Allowed to enter all but certain counties (of which I have never been able to find out are!)and be so called treated by the California inspection service. Do those people really think SHB is going to hang around in those hives while being treated?
It really is not the beekeepers not doing their homework as the California inspection service not informing beekeepers of the new rules!
All commercial beekeepers want is a clear explanation of the rules so they can plan accordingly. Sitting at the border is not the place to get the rules changed. I know as I have tried!

[loggermike]

What a year!There is definitely grower resistance to the 145-150 level.There is also price cutting on bees that came in on speculation that they would rent(JBJ is right-dont panic yet).There are also reports of lots of deadouts.I drove through a holding yard yesterday with hundreds of deadouts in it.Dont know the origin of those hives.
I think the bottom line is good hives will rent, but the marginal ones that would rent in an average year,will need to be left behind.The growers are going to be very picky at these price levels.
I agree the state is screwing up on the hives with shb.They should be allowed to proceed and be treated in the orchard.Some of us thought thats what was going to be the policy.Wrong.I could understand turning back hives from counties where there are no confirmed finds at this time, but there is no excuse for keeping the hives out of those counties (mostly the south ,I hear)that have shbs confirmed.
Next year as the big increase in acreage starts blooming,I think the growers will wish there were more beekeepers still in business.

[ January 30, 2006, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ]

[Trevor Mansell]

Bob.
I dont know about Tom Kennedy , but the friend of mine flew out there and treated his hives himself . He then had them moved into the almond grove after they treated the ground. He then went to the border with all the proper phone numbers in hand so when his second load showed up he was right there , made the phone calls with the inspectors and had his bees through within the hour on a saturday.
I agree that the republic of California is one screwed up place , and the state employees dont care that you are trying to make a living. But if I was sending my hives out there ,wich I hope to do next year ,I will have all my ducks in a row.

[JBJ]

How many acres are projected to come into production next year? This would be good information to have when developing a grower/pollinator relationship. If the shortage looks more severe next year, I would expect the growers to be keener to nurturing a long-term relationship with these years’ beekeepers.
JBJ

[Trevor Mansell]

I was told they will need 50,000 hives in the next 2 years.

[Bob Harrison]

Trevor,
Thanks for the information! I have been trying to contact Tom Kennedy or his father-in-law Charles Handley all day to find out what shape the returned load was in. I will pass on the information you provided and also add to my article if you don't mind?
I hope to send tonight the article if I can touch base with Kennedy Honey Farms. If not tomorrow.
The are out of Homerville, Georgia.
Have others on the list got information on border problems they feel their fellow beekeepers need to be aware of like Trevor posted. Ways beekeepers have handled the border situation . If you do please post or send me a private message.

[TwT]

this is from the almond board, on page 3 they give there estimates on acreage increase of almond growers.


http://almondboard.files.cms-plus.com/PDFs/Heintz%20-%20ABC%20Research%20Review.pdf

wonder if they (california inspectors) are going through the packages from SHB infested Australia with a fine tooth comb.....

[JBJ]

Well I just heard another rumor of a surplus of bees and the prices in the toilet; meanwhile blooms are beginning 7-10 days ahead of schedule. Growers are still calling for bees but not willing to pay, so with the current price of almonds, maybe the growers would rather due without a crop. Staying home is sounding better by the day.
JBJ

[Bob Harrison]

Not sure what's going on and talked to California three times today. My guess is several different things are happening.

Tom Kennedy said four loads from Georgia were cancelled. Seems the growers are waiting to the last minute to cancel. Never heard of last minute cancelling.

Tom says the word is there are plenty of hives but not what he is seeing.

Another beekeeper told me plenty of growers offering 20-25 dollars over last years prices.

I had not heard of early bloom . I talked to a couple beekeepers today which were moving bees into almonds in the Fresno area which is about
right and not early. The Bell Hill Honey load leaves tomorrow which is late in my way of thinking but broker says no.

[sqkcrk]

How about brokers who have had last years beekeepers going directly to the growers and undercutting the price?

I've heard of beekeepers, with thousands of colonies, who haven't looked at their colonies since the last time that honey was taken off. What kinds of numbers, of live colonies and frames of bees, could they have?

Beekeepers in the East, who have had their bees rejected, are you at least feeling good that your bees may be in better shape than they would normally be? I'm sure that this is no consulation. I am just wondering if there isn't a bright side to be found?

[loggermike]

We started putting some in last week(Chico area).There was a bit of scattered bloom on the very earliest variety,but the bulk of the later bloomers were still just budded.I saw one of the larger outfits just starting to move Monday.Looks like a drying trend coming around Sunday,which will help.The southern districts come into bloom a few days earlier than the north ,on average, so this seems a normal timetable to me.If the weather clears,the cooler nights will slow the bud development some.
Still,if I was a grower with early bloom coming on ,I'd want them in NOW.
Watch the blue diamond site for daily updates.And check out this article(ignore the inaccuracies)
http://www.chicoer.com/local_news/ci_3449001

---Mike

[ February 02, 2006, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: loggermike ]

[JBJ]

Mike, do you still think it is to early to panic? I am still getting growers calling but most seem to be offering way lower prices than a couple of weeks ago. Many of them are just trying to see if I would undercut their current pollinator (the same thing that happened to us). I still have about 600 hives to place and with the bloom eminent, I suppose it will be a few days before the last of the ink dries on the last of the contracts. I hope I get one!
JBJ

[loggermike]

well its getting close.Maybe call around to get a better idea of the supply situation.Then make the best deal you can.I figure almonds are too important to pass up.If you are a good poker player you might wait,but I'm not sure thats a good idea at this point.I'm thinking that there was too big a jump from last years price,but you do need to get as much as you can.I always figure everything is negotiable.

[JBJ]

Good news since last post. We have picked up 150 for sure and another 200 in the queue that I will get verification on in the morning. Many of these are contracts are resulting from filling in for other beekeepers whos growers were unhappy with the bees originally offered to them. In many cases it was due to the Australian package bee situation. In my opinion a four-pound package with some frames of honey and brood would be an incredible pollinating unit as long as it was timed properly. The guys who installed their bees a month ago will likely have as small of a cluster as they will have all year because of the natural cycle from egg to adult. The older bees have died and the young have not hatched and if they started with a three pounder too early, it might be a very tough sell. Four+ pounds at the beginning of the bloom would be a great pollinator because the entire population is essentially all a foraging force. Timing is everything. All in all, I am not too wild about the Australian bees coming, but at least they are expensive for now. Loads of unselected drones saturating the west coast and beyond may set some breeding programs back.
JBJ

[TaylorL]

The Bloom is starting to come on. My earliest variety (Sonora) is starting to open up pretty consistently across the field. I'd say by about the 9th they'll be going full tilt. Nonpareil in this particular block looks about 3 days behind. The bee price seems to have come down quite a bit. My neighbor told me his pollinator had roughly 300 hives available in the $80-$90 range. I haven't heard of anyone searching for bees in my area. Your going to have a hard time getting $150 out of growers with the current market conditions. When hive prices started to inflate to that level almonds were selling in the $3.00 to $4.00 range. At those price levels you pay whatever it takes to secure bees. Their now currently in the $1.75 range with buyers, for the most part, staying out of the marketplace. At those levels no ones rushing out to sign a contract at $140/hive.

[JBJ]

The most I have heard anyone getting lately is in the 135 range, and this was filling in on an already signed contract for another beekeeper that was short. 80 or 90 would not be worth the trek for a lot of beekeepers to expose their hives to the risks of transit, theft, pests, pathogens, and not to mention a mountain of work and expense.
JBJ

[loggermike]

There is no shortage of hives,but a lot of them are weak this year.I left my 4 framers home,but I cant believe an Australian package hived 4 weeks ago would be as good as the 4 framers I'm not even bothering to try to rent.A lot of hooey over nothing, thinks me!

[loggermike]

What I am hearing, in the Northern area, is the price cutting(one broker told me there isnt that much of it going on) is more related to the strength of the hives,than to a glut of strong hives.I dont think anyone offering an 8 frame average is dropping their price from the 140-150 level.
The growers should just pay the price and then there will be less beekeepers go bk this year.This is going to be a make it or break it year for lots of beekeeps.This playing off beekeepers against each other to drive down the price is going to come back and bite the growers right in the butt in the next few years.I know lots of people think the Canadian border will open to let them come into Cal.I have a LOT of doubt that will ever happen.Unless California bees on comb are allowed to be sent North also.I hear there is lots of Canadian resistance to that idea.

[Bob Harrison]

Hi Guys,
Taylori,
Sonora is in many groves the main polinator of non-pareil (big money almond) so I would say those groves need bees soon.

Loggermike,
I talked to both California & Australia yesterday by phone. The total for number of package shipments has been around 30,000 this season. All three shippers will be done by the end of next week. I found this information by talking to the Sidney airport as next week ends bookings. All shippers use the same airline.
Terry Brown (the subject of my articles and the queen breeder I chose to write about) has had the least shipping problems. He does not recommend using a 3 lb. package for almonds and ships a package with about 4 and a half pounds with 10-20 dead bees on the bottom when the bees arrive. I know because I have interviewed many of the people which received his packages this year. He also has the lowest price for a 4 lb. at $97.

The next large shipper is Beartooth (Weavers) which has had some shipping problems but caused by temp in the cargo compartmentthey say which could be true. Don't know. I do know their price for 4 pound package is $120. I also know they have got chalkbrood problems in the their bees as they are still running the old Australian line which is known the world over as having a chalkbrood problem. Ask Canadians. George Hanson spoke of the problem at the California beekeepers meeting and his statement is in print on page 59 of the Feb. 2006 Bee Culture.
The third shipper (name withheld and very small) has had a huge amount of shipping problems resulting in over half his packages dead on shipments. The other shippers say its because he does not prepare correctly. Don't know but what I am hearing.
On a final note the Weavers ( and George Hanson) have told beekeepers this year( in print on pg. 59 also) that a 3-pound package is as good as a 4-pound for almonds and the growers will take for pollination. From my sources this has not been the case and some growers are rejecting 3-pound packages if as JBJ said they were installed a month ago (exactly for the reasons JBJ stated).
The bottom line is the amount of packages from Australia are not the root of the problem this year. Other things are a bigger factor this year such as low almond price and as said before beekeepers trying to get 150 out of bees which should have been left home.
Our last load is sitting snowed in in Wyoming I was told yesterday.

[loggermike]

Bob,30,000 is the figure I heard too.Considering the number of hives needed for almonds, thats an insignificant amount.I heard the price had dropped on almonds too,so agree thats the biggest factor.
Also will point out to JBJ that the Australians have access to mite resistant breeding material(as explaned by Bob in his writing).Whether any of that is being sent here,I dont know,but could actually have a positive effect.
I cant help but think that 4 pounds of bees added to a 4 framer right now would be a pretty good pollinator!
Best of luck getting the load moving. Its supposed to get warm here next week.That will get the trees popping.I drove by an orchard last night after dropping some hives in a holding yard.It is always the first to bloom in that area.I couldnt see any bloom at all on it.I was sure there would be.
--Mike

[suttonbeeman]

Bob,

Sorry for the delay, with the cooler temps in Fl the nectar is comng in but bees using faster ! So I went and fed and worked bees. They were light in fall due to drought but look good now! Last thing I have heard is some growers renigging on contracts. On large beekeeper (6,000)who is a friend of mine had a grower tell him he was raping him at$150.00 and wanted to back out of contract. Beekeeper told him he felt like a prostitute and that the grower had been getting what he wanted for as little as he could! good answer. I do know of 4 loads left Fl this week, some without contracts. Another friend sent a load out first of Jan. Was informed that 350 would go in almonds and that 160 were doa or too weak! The person I was going to send a load to told me they had found out some bees advertised in Fresno, that the ads were actually placed by growers trying to push price down! Also I heard that 50,000 packages arrived from across water! alot of bees and growers dont realize that that a package wont pollinate like a good colony. And to ad to that I heard some were infested with beetles!! The california mess shows what lack of common sense and a goverment official who answers to no one, can do to creat a disaster. Some day some one will get their butt kicked and they will blame the beekeeper when they created the problem! I think when it all shakes out there will be a little shortage. Rick

[SUKIE]

Real neat when you sign a contract with a grower & he renigs on his contract. This is what the court system is for & so is this web site. Why not every one post the names of the growers that don't want to honor the contracts they signed weeks ago. To hell with this price cutting BS. Maybe if a grower that reniged on his contract sat with out bees for a season or two he would get the picture. Talk to a grower & have him do the math. $1.50 for a hive times two per acre & have him tell you how many thousand pounds of nut they do per acre for the 2 hives rented. It's time to get tough with the monkey business. May be if enough of these knot heads that signed contracts get drug into court they would get the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peggjam]

If the growers are getting $1.75 per pound for their almonds, at $150 per hive for pollination services, that works out to 86 pounds of almonds for each hive placed into the orchard. How many pounds of almonds do they get off each tree??? Along the same line, how many trees can one hive pollinate?? It doesn't seem like a high price to pay for setting your crop, kinda like crop insurance.......you know this reminds me of the dairy industry. We let the milk companies tell us what they will pay us, because we don't have the kudos to stand up and say that we can't produce it for that. Maybe beekeepers should, instead of slitting each others throat....get together and TELL the growers what they will pay for pollination services. If everyone refused to move bees into the orchards for less than $150 per hive, and EVERYBODY stuck to it, then everyone would benifit.

Oh, wait a minitue, this is the good ole USA, where throat slitting is a way of life.......sorry I had a relaspe there for a second..........really, I'm ok now. tongue.gif

[ February 04, 2006, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: peggjam ]

[Tim Vaughan]

The orchard I do is about 5 percent in bloom. Very warm weather is forecast for the next week, with some fog at night so things should move along quickly. I moved 43 hives (small time guy here) from 16 locations to the orchard starting at 5pm the previous night. All by hand, of course but fortunately they only had to go an hour up the road so with my son's help I got home by 1am. No three weeks on the road for me, and frankly I plan to keep it that way. I charged 40 bucks last year and plan to ask for 50 this year, but when you figure in time, gas and the fact that my bees aren't next to anyone else's it'll do.

[sellis]

has anyone bothered to think about this ... with less bees means less crop wich means prices skyrocket for almonds , maybe this is what they want....?????

[loggermike]

sellis,I think the growers really want a big crop so they can keep supplying nuts to the world market at a reasonable(profitable) price.The high prices met a lot of resistance(sound familiar?).In the long run growers need a market able to absorb the huge increases in production that are coming with the increased acreage.If not,they will have to tear out some orchards to lower production.I really hope they can pull it off.Then we can all prosper together.

[Flyer Jim]

Mike, things are starting to look up around here... back to normal. I got most of my bees put out in the orchards and didn't get stuck. The growers to expect the bloom to happen next weekend around here (Oakdale, Modesto area). I still have 30 or 40 hives to place but I think I will be filling in behind another beekeeper. I see lots of bees in holding yards around Oakdale and Hughson and higher up in the foothills. I've heard of alot of deadouts. Some beekeepers are coming down on their price and a few have hada cancellations. One of my friends had a 500 hive contract cancelled down by Fresno. I've heard that growers with crop insurance must have receipts for bees or their crop insurance in no good. Jim

[loggermike]

Glad to hear that ,Jim.We did sling a bit of mud out on the roads trying to get some in during the rain.The broker we work with thinks supply and demand will be about equal in the end.I hope so,all this talk of an oversupply makes me nervous.
--Mike

[JBJ]

Very interesting comments across the board, Beesource is an incredible asset for our community. A little cooperation goes a long way. Got a call today for a large number of hives from another “beekeeper” who admitted he had snapped up lots of contracts early and planned to fill them with whoever he could book last minute at a lowball price and pocket a fat margin for himself. With every burgeoning blossom the pressure will mount for securing the harvest. There is no doubt that sustaining US beekeeping is pivotal to the security of our food supply and profits for growers. I am confident we can find a way to help each other out.
JBJ
PS, It is beginning to appear the over supply rumor is over inflated.

[Bob Harrison]

JBJ,

"PS, It is beginning to appear the over supply rumor is over inflated"

My job as an author of beekeeping magazine articles is to find the truth. When I agree to write an article I will not "whitewash" a story.

I agree completely with JBJ. I am on a first name basis with the major players. I know the current numbers of hives they are running and brokering. The almond board has provided very acurate information on numbers of groves needing bees.
I can easily punch the calculator and see a shortage but:

There is a gray area. I have not been able to determine from internet information or from the almond board the number of "old growth" trees. Why is this important? Because the old growth tree acre typically take 3 hives instead of 2.

The next gray area is how many almond growers have decided to simply drop production this year.

Happens! I dropped production on my apple/ peach orchard in Missouri last season. We went into a drought and the market was depressed for the fruit. Mainly because our "one term" Gov. Blunt did away with the "Wics" program for poor people with a stroke of his pen. All us small growers depended on the program. Skipping a year was a sound business decision. When the apple/peach survey person called last fall he said many others had dropped a year.

I do not see Australian package bees as ever being a big factor in the issue but instead a way for beekeepers to restock their hives at get the almond grower to pay for most of the cost. Both almond growers & beekeepers which have sit down with me and discussed the issue end up everytime seeing the Aussie import as a good thing.

You want the Mexican border opened?

While on the subject let me say three other countries are trying to access the U.S. market but hopefully APHIS will hold the line.

Also the holdup with bringing varroa tolerant queens from say Texas into say Beartooth (Australia) is held up with the simple Australian requirement that all queens entering Australia has to be DNA tested saying the queen has zero percent AHB.

The Australian apiary inspection has the highest standards in the world.

Only an idiot would believe the California rumors packages infested with SHB, varroa and tracheal mites are coming in from Australia. Those rumors are being spread by people with an agenda.

[loggermike]

Bob,Didnt you write that Terry Brown had access to varroa resistant Italian stock direct from Italy?Not sure you did,just relying on my poor memory.If so that could be helpful.Of course Terry Brown couldnt test it for mite resistance,but we sure could!Could you give a quick update on if he is working with this stock?

[ February 05, 2006, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: loggermike ]

[Bob Harrison]

Mike,
Terry is an importer of queens rather than a research/breeder. Terry saw the original Australian line had serious chalkbrood problems.
Other Australian queen breeders tried to select within the line for chalkbrood resistance. Beekeeping history has shown a very tough row to hoe. Not impossible but when no new blood has been introduced in a 100 years problematic.
Terry has imported many queen lines to solve his chalkbrood problems. Also an italian line which is supposed to be varroa tolerant ( I told Terry I did not think much of the line ). he also has a Buckfast line. Terry called me when he found out from my partner I had applied varroa pressure to all the line queens he gave me. I killed the italian varroa tolerant line, all but one of the Buckfast and have got four Australian queens left. 10 queens could not handle the varroa pressure ( two frames of drone comb left in all season). I had hoped to kill off 50% but ended up killing off about 70%. Hopefully one or two of those left will be somewhat varroa tolerant. If so I will add some of my genetics and hopefully an Aussie varroa tolerant bee will emerge in a few years.
We have got the three lines ( italian, Buckfast & Australian) maintained at my partners breeding yards alive & treated before the list gets as upset as Terry Brown did.
My favorite example of why varroa pressure:
A race car can sit and idle all day but will it hold up at 200 MPH for 500 miles? I used to build race car engines.
We also sent 10 queens of the Australian line to Dann Purvis to maintain and evaluate.
Terry is wanting some varroa tolerant stock to import but we need lab testing to get the queens pass the strict Australian inspection service.
I do not believe a single pallet buyer this season asked Terry Brown if varroa tolerant queens were available. When beekeepers start wanting varroa tolerant queens then the process will go forward faster.

[loggermike]

Thanks for the update.I was hoping for a better report on the Italian strain(being mostly partial to Italian type bees).
Maybe like me,the buyers just assumed since Australia doesnt have varroa there wouldnt be any tolerance .But then again,with deadouts to fill and orchards to pollinate,its a business decision.One that could keep a guy with a lot of deadouts from going under.

[JBJ]

Greetings from Modesto. Very warm and blossoms beginning to pop. Still hunting for contracts. We are placing 160 at $135 in the morning, so only 500 more to go. It is crunch time in the trenches. Things will happen fast with the current weather pattern so I hope to get these contracts locked up soon.
Straight Italians have not been able to tolerate my winter and regiment either. It appears that the queens that tightly peg their brood rearing to the flows cope with the mites much better especially if they are HYG/SMR to boot. A break in brood rearing for the bees is also a break in brood rearing for the mites.
JBJ

[loggermike]

Hey JBJ hope things are working out.Heres another almond/varroa/shb article:
http://www.capitalpress.info/main.asp?SectionID=67&SubSectionID=792&ArticleID=22754&TM=45716.14

[JBJ]

Thanks Mike. I will check it out. Things seem to be picking up. We have been placing some bees everyday in the 120 to 135 range. We are down to about 250 left to place, and we have not had to take any low-ball offers. I am fairly confident the trend will continue. I am looking forward to gettin home to the family ASAP. Pretty amazing conditions weather wise. Couldn’t ask for better.
JBJ

[jean-marc]

Hang in there. The end is near. I kinda wish I was down there earning some much needed cash. So have you brought all the hives you wanted to rent out to a holding yard or do you go back and forth?

Jean-Marc

[Flyer Jim]

The last load was placed this morning. Total of 157 hives in 3 different orchards. I was trying for 200 but had some weak ones, next year 350 to 400 I think that is all my old back can take. How did the rest of you do?
Jim

[HarryVanderpool]

We took two loads down and had blue skys and record temps for FOUR DAYS STRAIGHT.
Everything went perfect.
I was feeling bad for many of my fellow beekeepers that lost their contracts but thankfully, they all were able to plug in somewhere.
Hopefully, we will take a close look at the many situations that we have been made aware of this year and learn something that we can all apply next year.
And thats' as specific as I care to be about that.

:cool:

[loggermike]

We blew out one front tire,got stuck twice,but pretty much uneventful.I too have a lot of thoughts about what happened this year,but am mostly thinking about spring management and considering palletizing for next year.

[Tim Vaughan]

If this weather keeps up, we should all have some very nice build up by mid-March. I put on a bunch of old supers with trashy comb hoping to take advantage of the weather and my new queens.

[loggermike]

If the good weather holds,you may see hives jammed with almond honey at the end of bloom,with the bees hanging out.I've seen that before when there was lots of warm weather during bloom.But they will eat it up fast afterwards because of the heavy brood raising.Then comes swarm prevention!!!!

[Tim Vaughan]

Seems a cold front is moving in the middle of this week, at least down here. Today's temp 78.

[loggermike]

Figures.Pollination weather is like a box of chocolates.......

[JBJ]

Well the dust is beginning to settle and a clearer picture is beginning to form. We have been back for five days now and it is great to be home. This looks to be an unusual year for almond pollination. After getting underbid on our first contract for all of our bees it was a real scramble to get everything rented and we had to take a few miserable contracts along with a few great ones. For some contracts it was the highest fee I have ever received and for others it was the worst in the last 4 or 5 years. The good news is we have the contacts for next year and they are willing to sign early. There are a lot of unhappy growers out there. Almond prices down and hive rental prices are up and growers who have used the same beeks for years are now shopping around. Many beeks tried to jump from the 80 range to the 150 range in one season; this may have been too steep of a hike for one season for a grower to swallow. I took a lot of calls from growers who were willing to dump their beeks with whom they have worked with for years. There were also some shady things going with some growers. I had one contact me who claimed he had a problem with his bees and asked if I would come and look at them, after a brief inspection it was clear that the only problem was price; the bees looked excellent. I contacted the owner of the bees and let him know what was going on. This grower paid me 75 an hour for two hours to look at his bees and he seemed more than a bit disappointed that I did not find problems. There were also some growers who had a poor opinion of the Australian packages and some who had packages who did not know it and seemed quite happy and some who knew it and seemed happy. Results seem to be all over the map on this one. How these Australian bee imports will ultimately affect the almond pollination price remains to be seen and is a subject open for debate. Hopefully the price of these packages remains high so there will not be too much downward pressure on the hive rental price. A flood of cheap imported bees driving the rental price down is not what we want if you make your living pollinating. I could see a trend towards growers buying cheap bees for pollination and then turning them on the market for a profit. I suspect the future price for almond pollination will stabilize in the $125 range, plus or minus $10; it could go much lower if many of the cut throat tactics that were employed by both growers and beeks continue to be employed next year. With some degree of cooperation we beekeepers could do well for ourselves. We need to offer a great product at a fair price with no undercutting. A slightly lower price may be a good thing to keep more distant beeks out due to high transportation cost/risks. It also appears that when growers pay more they expect more, which wont necessarily be the case.
JBJ

[loggermike]

My opinion-we hit right up against the price resistance wall this year.Growers fought back the only way they could-getting real picky on the grading.I'm fine with that. We have always been treated fairly on the grading.Either the bees are there or they aren't.When fees were low I think some marginal hives were overlooked by the growers.Can't expect that at these high prices. I think there was too big a jump for one year,but the price is greatly influenced by what it takes to entice the out of staters to come here.If a lot of them feel cheated they may not come back,and the shortage will keep the prices up.Lots of opportunity here if one is able to take advantage of it.

[odfrank]

I got was involved in a group purchase of 75 Queens that came with the Australian packages. Every worker in every cage that I checked was alive. I heard these bees were very chaulk brood suseptiple. Anybody know anything else about them?

[Tors]

This $145 price quoted, is this per month rental?

The price is about US$30 per month in Australia.

Alex King (K142)

[loggermike]

Its for the blooming period-approximately a month.

[Flyer Jim]

Had to feed my bees in one orchard today. The hives were booming when I placed them around the first of the month. The trees haven't started to bloom yet. The bees in the other two orchards are booming, lots of bees, drone cells and heavy. The bloom is about half way through in these orchards. The orchard with no bloom is higher and might have been hit with colder temps last week and it's susposed to rain most of next week. You never know. Jim

[JBJ]

Here come the Australian drones.
JBJ

[Sundance]

Great info all.........

I hope to enter the fray as early as next season with 100 colonies to get my feet wet.

[Tim Vaughan]

Hope to go up to where my bees are after Church tomorrow just to take a look. I'm worried about the cold snap, and heard a rumor today at the Farmer's Market about extensive damage in parts. If all goes well, expect a few pics from the older thread I started a few weeks ago. I also heard like Jim that next week could be a wash out.

[loggermike]

I was in the Chico area Tuesday morning and there were icicles hanging from the trees!Not everyone had the sprinklers on so would expect substantial loss as the trees were in full bloom.Forgot to take pics got too busy doing other things.Saw hives(not on pallets)with water almost up to the entrance from all the watering going on for frost protection.

[peggjam]

How is this weather affecting the pollination? It appears that it has been a rough last few weeks for you guys. So much for nice weather.

[HarryVanderpool]

You can get a daily update here:
http://www.bluediamond.com/growers/field/detail.cfm?l_location=1
Looks like they don't update on the weekends.
:cool:

[Joel]

I read Bob's article in ABJ. I guess what doesn't make sense to me is if the Bees found with beetles could be allowed into the state to be treated at holding yards (I'm assuming with soil drench and cumophos strips on bottom boards although the article doesn't say specifically) why could they not then be later transferred to the orchards with the bottom strips in place and the soil drench applied at the orchards? At about $30/120 hives it would seem the better choice than $5,000 to truck them back with no return $$ from pollination!

[Bob Harrison]

Joel,
Busy time for me so need to stay off net! Firing up my operation on Monday!
In some California areas loads with SHB can not enterperiod. Others they can but are subject to the rules of some county ag person. Some will let into almonds with rules. Others will not.

Each day I kept getting calls from California with different information. Deadline came so had to publish.

I do believe for those thinking of doing 2007 almond pollination from out of state useful information.

The article on what happened this year in almonds will shock you! April American Bee Journal. I have got information from over thirty sources. Almond growers, brokers ,California beekeepers & out of state beekeepers.
Diamond & Joe Traynor.

[Sundance]

Look forward to the article Bob.
And thanks Harry for a great link.....

[TwT]

heres a update on almond season this year

http://www.modbee.com/business/story/11848538p-12561509c.html
_________________

[jlyon]

We moved 3 loads of bees from E Texas into CA around Feb 1. Switched them all on to either new or cleaned pallets with no rotten wood. We got certified and didn't have any ants, dirt, weeds or anything on that truck but clean, strong, hives. On the first load a thorough inspection in Ariz. revealed 1 small bug (not SHB) they reluctantly let it go after stamping our paperwork. That apparently set off an alarm in CA as they spent nearly a half hour looking at the load before finally finding 1 unidentified bug. It was late on a Fri. afternoon and the load was held up for nearly 3 days until an entomologist in CA came to work Monday and identified it as a common, and harmless, beatle found in wooded areas in nearly every state. During the wait our driver said he saw load after load barely even looked at including one convoy of 3 trucks in which they spent about 30 seconds looking at only the first truck. There is no consistency to the process at all. You are subject to the whims of a random inspector who isnt's able to even ID a common insect. The next two loads made it in without incident.

[Bob Harrison]

jylon,
March ABJ article on border:
I agree completely! In fact the northern border was wide open. The problems were at the I40 entrance.
In doing the April pollination article for ABJ I spoke with or ABJ did and provided information with all the major players including Dave Baker at the site Twt posted.
I found the farther up the ladder you went the less informed to what was actually happening. I would love to post a few higher up names but better leave alone!
I feel for the almond industry and their freeze problems but they dealt a devestating blow to many beekeeping operations. Some will not recover I spoke with.
Many different things were going on in California this year. To sum things up in a single statement:
Growers & brokers started the "California gold rush" stampede be SAYING they would pay $150 a hive for pollination. Fact

What they didn't say was:
We will only pay $150 for hives which grade 8-10 frames BY OUR GRADING STANDARDS. Across the board half to two thirds of Midwest hives were rejected. The growers & brokers were prepared to do without hives to prove a point(and many did)!

I spoke with some pretty upset out of state beekeepers. Many say they will not be back. All they asked was to be treated fairly!

Read my report for the full details in the April ABJ. If you are thinking of California almond pollination next year both my articles are a must read. Many beekeepers got lucky and sailed into California at the border or had their hives placed in almonds without grading. Please have concern for jlyon, Kennedy Honey Farms & others which know what its like to have your load stopped at the border or graded by a bunch of people which are told to grade hives at half strength.

[loggermike]

Article on the frost damage:
http://www.capitalpress.info/main.asp?SectionID=67&SubSectionID=792&ArticleID=23224&TM=77766.48

[Flyer Jim]

Lots of wind and rain last night. Went to check for blown off lids and feed this morning. Saw lots of trees blown over in a couple orchards. Most of the bloom is gone with a few places that have a week to 10 days untill they are through blooming.
Does anyone know what the going rate for cherry pollination is going to be this year?
Jim

[chief]

Jim,

Where do you do cherries? I would be interested in knowing what the price of cherries is going to be because I will be pollinating my sisters orchard her in eastern Washington and would like to know what would be a fair price to ask. I'm sure I will give her a deal but I would at least like to be in the balpark.

[JBJ]

Maybe the “gold rush” mentality will be diminished for next year and those that survive will be fairly strong. I know I will be signing my contracts earlier than ever. I have had enough undercutting and scrambling to last for quite a while. Is there a bright side to crop damage? Perhaps some shortage will boost almond prices for next year and growers wont be able to use low prices as an excuse to put the squeeze on.
JBJ

[Flyer Jim]

Chief, I try to pollinate cherries around the Stockton area. But I don't know what the price is going to be. There are so many bees brought out from the midwest for Almond pollination, that the big cherry growers pay little or nothing to the beekeepers because the beekeepers from the midwest want a place to park their bees until the weather improves where they came from. At least that is what I've heard. If anyone has any different ideas, I'd be interested in why the price is so low.
Jim

[loggermike]

>Perhaps some shortage will boost almond prices for next year and growers wont be able to use low prices as an excuse to put the squeeze on.
Thats what I am hearing.The freeze did enough damage to stop the slide in almond prices,but not enough to wipe the crop out.Apparently their was adequate flying time for pollination .Now its about over and I was told I could start sneaking a few hives out if I needed to.But with snow in the mountains,and the orchards muddy,I'm in no hurry.

[Tim Vaughan]

The mud's the killer in many places, you're right.

[JBJ]

Here come the Australian drones.
JBJ

Dr. Steve Sheppard postulates in this months bee culture (4-1-07) that inferior genetics contributed from unexposed/unselected populations may have rendered our bee populations more vulnerable to mites. What net affect will the imported Australian genes have on US bees?

Any thoughts?

[George Fergusson]

>What net affect will the imported Australian genes have on US bees?

Importing bees into this country that haven't been subjected to varroa pressure is just a Bad Idea(tm). We need those genetics like we need another parasite.

[JBJ]

Could they be a factor in CCD?

[loggermike]

Australia has had its own version of disappearing disease over the years.

[Aspera]

>What net affect will the imported Australian genes have on US bees?

Importing bees into this country that haven't been subjected to varroa pressure is just a Bad Idea(tm). We need those genetics like we need another parasite.

And the Australian bees may bring us both...

[dcross]

It's aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive!:)

[Allen Martens]

I think blaming Australian bees for CCD problems is too easy an answer.

They've been imported into Canada for years in the presence of varroa and most of the other diseases that occur in the US with no CCD symptoms appearing (during that time frame).

I agree that widespread importation of stock that has experience no selective pressure for withstanding varroa seems like a bad idea. That being said, importation of Australian bees would not be economically feasible if North American bee populations weren't in decline.

[George Fergusson]

I think blaming Australian bees for CCD problems is too easy an answer.

I agree, and I wasn't blaming them for CCD, I was suggesting that the last thing we need in this country is bees that have never seen a varroa mite. IMHO, breeding varroa-resistant/tolerant bees is the solution to our problem, a solution made more difficult to achieve if we continually dilute our gene pool with inferior (i.e., varroa-susceptible) genetics.

[sierrabees]

I think your right that blaming Australian imports as a single cause of CCD is wrong. I also thing that writing them off as a factor is incorrect. I believe we will eventually find that CCD is the result of accumulating a significant number of stresses such as chemical contamination of the comb, high population concentration in the orchards, long cross country truck rides, varroa mites, other common pathogens, unfavorable weather conditions, single food sources caused by monoculture, new viruses coming in with imports, our breeding practices which select for resistance to certain problems but do not take into account other weakness, forcing early buildup that is contrary to their natural instincts, and probably a dozen factors I am not aware of. In other words, beekeeping management has changed drasticly in the last three decades. Like almost everything that has been done in the name of "progress" we are starting to feel the negative effects. CCD is probably just one of these effects. I think that there is a threshold for how many of these stresses each colony can withstand and once that threshold is passed it's all downhill from there. Perhaps we will be able to breed bees with a higher threshold, or perhaps we will have to change our management practices drasticly to minimize the number of stresses. What I feel certain of is that some bees will survive in spite of anything we do to them and when we finally learn to let them live we will have a solid beekeeping industry.

[JBJ]

I don't think anybody is looking to blame the Australians solely, but I have been worried about the contribution of more susceptible genetics for a long time now, and I found Dr Sheppard's remark one year later very interesting. Australians in have been used in Canada and other countries for some time now, so in theory the same problems would arise there and any place that has had mites for a long time and then imports more susceptible genetics. CCD seems to not just be an American problem, nor is it ubiquitous. Many folks are having there best year ever after a great winter. Do Canadians have CCD? I have been hearing some reports of heavy losses there and in other countries.

I suspect that CCD will turn out to be an umbrella term that will cover a disease and stress complex, and that there will not be a one sole smoking gun singled out, but it will be several diseases and stresses that in the right combination yield devastating results. I do think that is possible that the Australian genetic contribution could be hurting more than it is helping.
John