Double brood

[beebloke]

HI,
Looked at posts on using two brood boxes.

For me the extra stores provided for winter is no real issue.With short mild winters i have no great problems wintering in a single deep brood.

No one seems to use it in my area,cant say about other parts.Australian books dont go into it much,New zealand have a bit more on the subject.This makes me ask is it a cool climate practice?

Anyone using double brood in short,mild winters?
If we leave out the extra stores,is there any significent results, spring build up or other for having two brood boxes?

Thanks
Beebloke smile.gif

[BeeBear]

I'm sure you will discover that this is a religious issue, with people holding strong opinions on the One True Right Way to do it. In addition to the amount of stores required for Winter, there's the issue of how long and intense the flow is. If you need to support a big population to bring in a short but intense flow, more brood area is good.

Only yesterday I read, I think in this forum, someone who insists that one deep is insufficient brood space for a healthy colony, and a followup from someone else who was sure that it was. Personally I use two deeps or three mediums because that's what feels right to me. I have asked the bees, but I just can't decode their answer.

You'll find folks who swear by just about every configuration including combinations of deeps and mediums. The University of Minnesota teaches a method which involves using three deeps as the brood area. While there is a lot that I like about their methods, this is not an aspect that I have adopted.

I suppose that one other related issue is queen excluders. You'll be more likely to get away without excluders if you provide more brood area. If you're going to use an excluder anyway, this isn't a consideration.

[Lew Best]

I'd like to get some input on this for the central Texas area. One chamber seems to be the "norm" around here but looks to me like 2 would bee better. Most of the beeks I've met here are pretty well set on "the way it's always been done" but at our field day yesterday I met the president of the state association & quizzed him about using Carnies (everyone else I'd met has always used Italians); he said they work great for him (he's about 100 miles north east of me; very similar climate) & also figured I'd need at least 2 mediums (I use all mediums) but no real opinion if 3 mediums would be better.

Lew in Waco

[wayacoyote]

While 2 deeps is still suggested in Alabama, USA, a deep and a medium is very common, as is a single deep. I took my bees through the winter in a single. I fed them through, but only because they didn't have any stores going into the winter.

WayaCoyote

[Michael Bush]

As a general rule people in this part of the country overwinter in two deeps. A few in three deeps. I don't know anyone around here that overwitners in one deep.

[Hillbillynursery]

I am in middle Tennesee. I am all medium boxes because of a bad back. My hives did good in 2 mediums. I even had a couple of single medium hives that did good. The 3 medium hives did not do any better than the 2 medium hives. Around me beekeepers are split between 2 deeps and 1 deep and one medium for over wintering. Most that use 2 deeps say they do it because it gives them more options with rotating combs in the brood nest. 2 mediums is more than a deep and seems to work good for over wintering. I really like having all hive bodies the same. Ever piece of equipment I have is interchangable(with exception of 2 deep hive bodies yet to be taken out of use).

[roger eagles]

We have winter here and some keepers now when honey flo is over sets the super with the queen in and brood.Takes the second super and stands it on end for a week.Only got one super left then stacks them 2 high,8 on a super and they seem to winter very well.I was ice fishing last year on nov. 2,and never unwrapt them till may 1st.Long winter but wintered well.Cover them completely over with snow they really stay cozzy.

[Michael Bush]

I've always wondered why more people in the south don't do two mediums instead of a deep and a shallow or a deep and a medium. It's exactly 2/3 the size of two deeps. Seems like what they want is just a little over a deep and two mediums is that. I would find the mix of different sizes of frames frustrating.

[beebloke]

Hi,

Thank you for the replies.
I must be similar to Lew who has one chamber the norm and beekeepers set in the always been done way.We use one deep brood because that is all we need to winter.
If i dont need the extra stores to winter what are some other reasons to double brood?

What im really looking for is what happens come spring.What are the follow on effects through the season?

On average is a double cluster larger than a single?or is it just spread more?

If you rotate does the queen lay more because she has new brood space?Is there an effect on build up?

At the end of the day what can be gained from a double brood compared to a single?

[Sharkey]

Well........
I am reading this post late, but it sure is interesting.

The thought that occured to me is..... the two mediums sound really good. I use the one deep/one medium setup.

I never use frames that have been used for brood in my honey supers. Do you think that some folks (folks with addled minds like me) might get the frames mixed up if all they used was mediums. The reason I don't mix them is when I first started a few years ago, I used the usual chemicals, and I didn't want any of that in my honey.

I suppose that now that I no longer treat the hives with any of that, it may not matter.

Any thoughts on keeping these frames from getting mixed ? Pros ? Cons ??

[Lew Best]

Beebloke wrote:

"I must be similar to Lew who has one chamber the norm and beekeepers set in the always been done way.We use one deep brood because that is all we need to winter.
If i dont need the extra stores to winter what are some other reasons to double brood?"

As I've stated many times I'm an "extreme newbee" just getting back into bees. I don't know from experience at all but it looks to me like if you went into winter with 2 boxes of bees & brood you should come out of spring into the honeyflow with a "larger workforce"? I guess this is why I posed my part of the question; it seems logical but "does it work"?

Lew

[Michael Bush]

>Any thoughts on keeping these frames from getting mixed.

I don't use chemicals, so it's irelevant to me, but it's not hard to mark frames. Get a "sharpie" indelible marker and mark the ones that are contaminated, er, I mean the ones from the brood chamber. Paint the boxes from the brood chamber a different color and you can easily keep them straight. But for me, I want the brood nest to expand up into more boxes in the spring and be able to take honey from the supers to bolster light colonies in the fall and to boost light colonies in the spring. So interchanability is really difficult to live without.

But interchanability is ESPECIALLY important within the brood chamber to be able to manipulate it well. That's why I don't understand the deep and a shallow system.

[Hillbillynursery]

Sharkey, since you no longer use those chemicals you could mark the ones you have as brood and rotate them out giving you a clean hive again.

2 medium points, I find that being able to move brood frames into the supers helps to get the bees working the supers. Like MB said if a colony is weak going into fall you can pull some of the brood frames(if it is weak some will not be being used) and add frames of honey from another hives super. Mediums are lighter. The lumber is easier to get if you make your own box with less waiste. If you buy rough cut lumber that point is a bit less important as you can have them cut the board any width(like a full 10 inch board for making deeps and even a 7 inch board for mediums). Some colonies will chimney up one side instead of using the whole box. With the brood chamber being 2 boxes the same size you can reorganize the brood chamber. If I did not use mediums for the brood chamber I would have to use 2 deep instead of the deep, shallow or medium many around here do.

Someone in the deeper south needs to experiment as one deep seems to be to small for around here. Set some up as single deeps some as 2 mediums and some as 2 deeps and see what works best. If I could handle the deeps I would give it a shot but with my back problems I can not even a temp this.

[Jim Fischer]

Just to further muddy the waters, I've always
considered 3 mediums to be the ideal brood
chamber for areas with average winter lows
at or above 32F.

[Lew Best]

Hey Jim

I'm using all mediums so figured since 2 deeps = 3 mediums (or pretty close) that's what I'd shoot for. Of course my pkg bees only been installed about a week on foundation so I may not be able to "test the theory" this season.

Lew

[Michael Bush]

Mine overwinter in what seems right for the number of bees left in the fall. Sometimes 2 sometimes 3 and sometimes 4 mediums. I think having some left over honey and pollen come spring helps the spring build up

[Dan Williamson]

I am in NW Indiana and wintered one of my hives (Italian) in 1 deep and 1 med. (Still have a few deeps though I'm going to all meds.) That hive had plenty of excess stores this spring and did just as well and my other hives with 2 deeps and a med. Based on the amount of honey left they could have wintered in 1 deep.

I'm going to try to overwinter this year in 2meds for some and 3meds in the others and see how they do.

Dan

[SageBrush]

I've winterd hives in Alpharetta, GA and Jacksonville, AL which means mild winters. I was told a single deep was best with feeding. A single deep won't do it for me without feeding though. I tried the 1 1/2 method thinking I could do less feeding. Still had to feed more than I wanted last year. I lost 4 of those hives in the early sping during a cold snap, all comb was empty execpt brood frames. They looked fine the week before.

My bees seem to consume all the honey stores no matter if I leave one or two supers of honey on. They had capped stores till about April first of this year, then all I had was uncapped frames full of open honey. I didn't feed this spring, I think I should have.

[Lew Best]

One thing I forgot to add; I haven't talked to anwhere near as many beekeepers as I've seen hives throughut the countryside but the 1 deep with shallow supers stacked on top seems far more common than 2 deeps with supers on top 12 months out of the year here.

Lew

[Curry]

This last year I had around 10 hives (that were splits from last year) that I overwintered in singles. They all came out of the gate at full speed, and none of them died. On the other hand, I had a number of two deep colonies that didn't build up as fast, and I lost a large percentage of them. I am definately going to try more singles... I think they can move about the hive easier (easier to keep a smaller space warm). Of course, I use russians, which overwinter on very small stores, and I live far enough south to use singles.

I would have to agree that singles would probably have to be fed to ensure adequate food storage. But I can have quite a few more hives without buying more boxes by going to singles.