No queen....

[Martha]

Hi all,
One of my hives has no queen. Some workers, loads of drones walking about. Spotty drone capped on the frames. I did see some larve in the "c" position. I can't see any eggs. I guess I need a magnifing glass.

So, my quess is a laying worker.

What should I do? Dump the bees out in the yard somewhere? Take a frame of various size babies/eggs from another hive? Buy a new queen?

I found the queen in the other hive and she is looking fine.

I went and removed by bottom boards, so now the hives are just sitting on the SBB.

Thanks,
Martha

[Michael Bush]

If you have a lot of hives, the simple solution is to shake them out. But if you only have one other hive, maybe you want to try to salvage this one. You could put some open brood in, wait a week and put some more open brood in and hopefully they will start a queen. If not you can introduce a queen at this point.

[peggjam]

Laying workers are rare. I would pull a frame of eggs and larva from your other hive and place in this one, no bees just the brood. Wait a couple days and check for queen cells. Are you positive there is no queen in this hive? When did you last check this hive, and was there a queen then?
Laying workers deposit the eggs on the walls of the cell, and most of the time there will be more than one egg. I would hesitate to introduce a queen if there is any chance of a laying worker, as they will promptly kill her.

peggjam

[BjornBee]

Martha,
12 days for a new queen to emerge from introduced eggs.Yeah I know "four day eggs" are not eggs, but lets not split hairs, and I won't ask for a definition of "rare". smile.gif
10 days to mate and start laying.
21 days for her worker brood to emerge.
21 more days for these bees to become field force workers.
64 days if all goes correct.

get a calender....think about it.... and then order a queen.

After she(new queen) is adjusted, then introduce into the hive with a double screen if handy, or newspaper method. I would establish the new hive and queen, then break-down the drone laying colony and shake the bees. Let them drift into whatever hive they find. Unless its just drone, then I would freeze the hive and reuse the comb.

[peggjam]

BjornBee:

Introducing a new queen without knowing what is going on within the hive is like flushing money down the toliet. If there is no queen, or laying worker, they will build queen cells, then it would be a good idea to order a queen and introduce her. But if there is a queen or laying worker, introducing a queen at this stage would be, to put it bluntly, stupid. The hive will kill a queen when it has laying workers. Laying workers are rare. I would bet that there is a queen present in the hive, which is failing or laying only drones. By placing a frame of eggs within the hive and checking for queen cells you are certain to know whether there is a queen or laying worker, or there is no queen or laying worker.

peggjam

[BjornBee]

Peggjam,
Yes I would call it stupid also to consider the scenario you describe.

Why wait to see what is going on in the hive? If you order a queen now, do you not have a day or two to pinpoint the problem? Its either a failed queen or a laying worker, and in both cases, requeening at this time of the year is better than the advice of having them raise thier own queen.

Since I never mentioned how to introduce the queen, and you assume that just throwing them in the hive is what people do, may I suggest the following...

Martha,
Take the new ordered queen, and make a nuc from frames of bees of the other hive. Once established, you can introduce her into the weak/queenless hive by several methods. (Let me know if I should type these instructions out.) And all the while in doing this, you have plenty of time to eliminate the laying worker, find the old queen, and do whatever else may be needed to prep the failing hive.

To suggest that ordering a queen would be wrong, without knowing if its a failing queen or laying worker, seems a waste. Under which of these two points would you not need a queen? And raising your own at this time of the year is not 100% garanteed. Why wait another several weeks to be no further ahead of where you are now? Best advice to Martha is.....order a queen

There are several things needed to be done. You can accomplish several steps at the same time, without the time consuming procedure of one step at a time. I say order the queen now, and prepare the hive for her. Odds are you will need the queen.

Also Martha, do not be surprised if you can not find a queen. I would hate for you to waste endless hours and be stressed in not finding a queen. A failed queen is more probable than a laying worker, but to define a "laying worker" as rare, is incorrect in my experience. Peggjam seems unable to discuss any laying workers, without the term "rare". In both cases, reusing the comb, and establishing a new hive by making a nuc, and then shaking the remaining bees, and eliminating the "old" hive is as effective as any at this point.

[BjornBee]

Martha, I will try to explain odds for laying workers and perhaps not put you in the middle of different opinions.

In the beekeeping world, to have a hive with a laying worker, the odds are along the lines of about 1% or less. Can this be described as "rare". I guess. Obviously a certain sequence of events must take place to get to this point. And many hives are corrected for failing queens prior to the laying worker situation.

As for the description you gave as to your hive in the original post, the odds that a laying worker is present runs about 20% or more. I find that 8 hives will have failed queens/virgin queens, and the other 2 would be laying workers. For this real-life scenario you described, and thats what is at hand, then 20% can hardly be called rare. My advise is based on the situation at hand, and not other irrelevant matter.

"loads" of drone increase the time frame the hive has been without a queenright situation, and thereby also increasing the odds at this point that a laying worker could be present. You not finding her increases the odds. Your opening statement increases my odds toward a laying worker, and not a drone laying queen. I'll assume you know what a queen looks like, and as you yourself have already mentioned "has no queen". With the description of the hive you gave, and your beekeeping skills not finding a queen, mentioning that laying workers are rare, is not really helping. You have a good chance that a laying worker is present. Hope this helps.

[PaulR]

Ah. Laying workers. I wish indeed they were rare, like the Abominable Snowman, Bigfoot, or the Lock Ness Monster. I've had two hives so far this year. One from a captured swarm, another from a hive that, yes, lost a queen. Don't fret Martha. Follow BjBees instructions or like me, shake the bees and put the equipment up for next year. Almost all beekeepers I talk to have laying workers at some point. Cheers.

[peggjam]

Laying workers take time to develop. They don't appear overnight. If anyone is having alot of problems with laying workers, then your not inspecting your hive enough, or when you are your not looking for the right things. I have heard more claims of laying workers on here, it seems everyone has them. Is everyone not paying attention to their hives?? I would rather think that they are missing things when inspecting the hives to begin with. An infertile or failing queen will not be much bigger than the biggest worker in the hive. Much harder to spot, and hence leads to thinking "laying worker". The only way you will get laying workers is if your hive is hopelessly queenless. It takes time. If you had brood, capped and uncapped at your last inspection and you inspect monthly then there is something else going on other than laying workers, and you need to figure out what it is. Laying workers are rare. Unless of course you arn't paying attention to your hives to begin with.

peggjam

[Martha]

The last itme I worked this hive (about 2 weeks ago) - it was really really hot out. I didn't have time to look at each frame. But I did see lots of drones. Up in the honey super, which didn't have much stored.

I went into the top deep (I use 2 w/an excluder) and saw frames of honey/pollen and drones/workers.
I pulled out a frame of capped drone to check for mites and to get it out of there. I put in a frame with a starter strip of small cell foundation in the center.

Yesterday I had the time to go through each frame. Drone here and there. Every frame had some capped drone. Not on the bottom or just on the frames near the sides. Right in the center of the frame. Some bunched, some spotty. The small cell strip had buildt comb, but also some capped drone. ARG.

I looked and looked for a queen. Just drones and a smaller number of workers.

I only have 2 hives. I was hoping to spilt one for a 3rd yesterday.

So, I am thinking of taking a couple frames from the queenright hive and putting in the drone hive. Should brush off the bees or leave some on from the queenright hive? The drone hive has some workers, but would they be enough to raise a queen?

I can go buy another queen here in town or ask Michael to ship me one of his black beauties.

Oh the drone hive had a bunch of waxworms on the bottom board in the debris on my mite tray. I didn't find any webbing/worms in the frames. Now my box turtle has more dinner ;)

I was hoping to get some honey this year again. Looks like only one hive will produce. poo. So, I just want to make sure they make it through the winter.

I have honey from last year to feed them. I have a file folder of honey ready to feed too.

Thanks for all your help.

Martha in KC - hunting up that magnifing glass! Bifocals aren't helping me.

[peggjam]

Martha:

In all honesty, I would pull two frames of capped brood and 1 frame of larva from your good hive and put in a nuc to introduce a new queen to. BjornBee has the right idea there. But I would also put one frame of eggs into the drone hive and watch to see if they will make queen cells. If they don't then you have a problem. Which might best be resolved by shaking the entire hive out in front of the hive containing the new queen. Make sure to remove all equipment from the orginal stand. The frame of brood you place in the drone hive should have no bees on it. The reason I suggest shaking them out is it demorlizes the bees, and they are apt to accept a new queen. IMHO, I feel if you try to introduce the nuc to the hive without shaking them out, they will promptly kill your new queen. Hope it works out.

peggjam

[BjornBee]

peggjam, thank you. Now I understand your "rare" comment better.

Let me use a management strategy as an example, and maybe you can understand my point.
Lets say I use a queen excluder on the bottom of the hive and one at the top. Will this keep queens from flying out and leaving with a swarm. You bet. Now should I say that I never lose a swarm, or that my bees never swarm? No. If I cut all queen cells out of a hive on a 7 day cycle, will I all but eliminate swarming? Yes. But most beekeepers do not do this, and the bees will certainly swarm more than any labeling of "rare" on my part if I was to take the time to do this removing of the cells.

Yes, your management time will certainly limit and under the circumstances you describe, all but eliminate laying workers. But left to thier own demise, the hive will produce a laying worker more than what could be called "rare". And are there beekeepers who spend far way less time inside the hives as you. Yes. And that allows a number of hives to develop into laying workers. For you it may be "rare". For others, I am sure it may be more common than you have experienced. But for your "rare", it would be the same as my saying "my experience is that hives never swarm", based on my management practice. (I of course do not do this)

Many factors also change this % of laying workers. Beekeepers who catch alot of swarms, do alot of splits, raise queens, have large numbers, and other items, just by the nature of breaking down and building hives back up again will increase the chances of eventually having laying workers.

And to answer your question...there are alot of people who do not spend enough time inside the hive. Thats why they come here and ask questions. If all was perfect, we would just all brag about how good we are. smile.gif

[Dick Allen]

It is rare in these discussions that participants don't end up splitting hairs over certain words or phrases.

[BjornBee]

Dick, don't forget to mention the participants who add 2 cents, but do little to answer questions or help out in any way. Always a few of those. smile.gif

[Dick Allen]

Right you are BjornBee. Those aren't rare at all. Whomever are you referring to?

A couple of cents here, a couple of cents there; after a while we're talking some serious money.

[dickm]

I'd shake out the bees. They will find their way to the other hive and settle down. You'll still have the same # of bees. At that point if you think the hive is strong enough to split, do so with a new queen. It's late to split but you could get away with it with a lot of feeding of both hives.

Dickm