Two Queens IN hive...

[jfaatz]

1. A Brief history.
2. Question

I kept a dozen or so hives some 14+ years ago and last year acquired one again for pollination and pleasure. These are the most gentle bees I have ever known and made a remarkable crop of honey last summer, their first. Then, due to my lack of experience with mites, beetles, etc. I nearly lost them last winter. (We're in SE, NC) I didn't re-queen this spring wanting to wait till fall. The colony has revived fairly well, but seem to be lazy or something. One hive body is full of capped brood and has been most of the summer, but very little honey. (I have enough of last years saved for them in freezer).

Today, I was doing a routine inspection, noting all the capped brood, eggs, larvae, the clean condition, lack of mite clues and beetles. Then on an outboard frame I discovered an unmated queen scampering about. So continuing on across to the other side I kept thinking how puzzling as to why there were eggs. Then on the next to last frame at the other end I found the laying queen.

Question:

There are not, nor have been, any drones in this hive all summer. There are no empty queen cells that I can find. I found two queen cells under construction three weeks ago that I destroyed. After finding the laying queen I went back and removed the new one.

Could someone tell me if it is unusual or not, that two queens would live in the same hive as long as one is not mated. I have a notion that these two ladies have been living together for a month or more. And why are these workers raising queens but no drones? When I found the young queen the second time with some difficulty, it was very clear that she was trying desperately to get away or hide.

Thanks for your feedback. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Jack

[Michael Bush]

My guess is that they bees percieved that the queen was failing, raised a new queen and she had not mated yet. I would have left them both.

I've seen a daughter and a mother happily laying together in the same hive before. It's not that unusual. They usually dispose of the old one by winter.

[roger eagles]

John pulsum out of saskatoon sask. canada ha 2 queens on the same fram laying,so it does happin but almost never.

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B. roger eagles

[ron c]

Jfaatz. how did you know,by lookind, that she was virgin? Ron

[bjerm2]

I have had 2 queens in the same hive for almost 2 months. It really is not that unusual. Many books site that the old queen is not producing enough phermones to make the young queen think of her as an rival for the hive. The workers see the old queen as failing but still useful for some egg production. I agree with MB and would have left the two alone and gained on the number of eggs being laid by both queens. The bees would have taken the matter in their own hands as winter approached and mean time you would be increasing on the work force for winter.
Dan

[bjerm2]

jfaatz wrot me

"Dan,
I am new to this BB and don't know how to dialog with you at the site.
Thanks for your comment to my question. My next question is, why shouldn't
I have expected my hive to swarm? Is just the fact that the two ladies are
present indicative that that is not imminent, meaning that a swarm usually
happens just prior to the emerging of the new queen. I failed to mention
that there was ONE drone cell capped in the hive, (with no other drones, as
mentioned), you mentioned that the old queen may have been getting weak,
well it sure was not evident by looking at the eggs and capped brood; it is
just a single hive body however. So, I regret having removed the newby now,
it would have been an interesting experiment, which is partly what makes
this hobby so interesting, I was just thinking I was preventing a swarm.
Jack"

I said in an e-mail back

A hive that is going to swarm will have 7 or more queen cells (had one hive with 25 cells) on the bottom of the frames. These cells are well taken care of and it does not look like the bees were in a hurry to have them built. Supersedure cells there will be 2 to 4 of them and usually in the middle of the comb. It would be the same if the queen all of a sudden got killed. The key to it is the swarm cells is that there are many of them and the ones to replace the old queen are a few. It seems the bees know the old lady is not doing well and they do not want to spend to much time taking care of a lot of queens. Most of the time if the old queen is failing they will keep both queens laying. It helps in the build up of the hive. They will also replace the queen if she is not producing enough phermones that can be passed around the hive letting the worker bees know is present and ok. A large hive needs to have a young queen that emits queen phermones otherwise the message sent out is she is getting week and will need to be replaced regardless how many eggs she is laying.
I hope I did not confuse you and was of some help. If she is 'failing' they will make more queen cells. Just keep an eye out. Chances are they will keep both queens for a while.
Dan