Bees fleeing fire

[lisa h.]

Has anyone had any experience with bees absconding from a hive in the face of an oncoming fire? Or known anyone who has? I'm researching this issue and really need some help. All the folklore says bees will do this, but I can't find any eyewitnesses that can confirm it.

[Michael Bush]

I've heard of grass fires burning through where the hives were, scorching the hives and the bees were still there. I have no personal experience with it.

[JohnBeeMan]

There was a news report this week on CNN about forest fire fighters getting up to 50 stings a day from EHBs while fighting fires in NWUS (do not remember which state). Sounds like they (the bees) were still attempting to protect their home.

[iddee]

Montana..

http://www.star.niu.edu/articles/?id=26770

[randydrivesabus]

read the comments that follow that article....

[CWBees]

They were prob yellow jackets living in the ground. If so I wish the article had said this intead of hurting the Honey Bees rep. To most of the public wasp are bees.

[ September 08, 2006, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: CWBees ]

[CWBees]

When you smoke bees they start loading up on honey prob getting ready to abscond before the fire destroys their hive. This I would think would make them more docile. If you think about it the firemen are usually trying to make a fire break by scraping the ground to remove debris. This action would sure rile up any yellow jackets living in the ground.

[Jim Fischer]

That old story about "how smoke works", where bees
"think that there is a fire", and "load up on honey"
in preparation for abandoning the hive, and therefore
"cannot sting you" is utter nonsense.

If it were true, proper smoker use would assure one
of no stings at all, or at least very few. This has never
been the case, therefore, it should be clear that not
all bees "load up on honey", and such a load in their
honey crop does not prevent them from stinging, and so on.

If it were true, excessive smoker use could result
in a hive absconding when being worked or
shortly thereafter. This has not been documented as
a potential problem inherent in the use of smokers.

All smoke does is mask the alarm pheromone, so that
there are fewer bees able to detect alarm pheromone,
and fewer bees that will respond in a defensive manner
to the disruption of the hive inherent in opening a hive.

When used to excess, smoke proves to be an irritant to
bees, as they are quick to run down between frames to
get away from smoke applied with a heavy hand.

Bees can tolerate very hot weather, and it should be
clear that even close to a large fire, the temperature
is not unreasonable for bees to both survive and
tolerate.

Also, a laying queen is not going to be a very good
flyer. In preparing for swarming, the queen is denied
food, and "slimmed down" so that she can fly with
the swarm. I don't know how well a laying queen
can fly if forced to do so, but I've seen all of them
that I have inadvertently displaced from the hive
crawling back to their hive, rather than flying any
distance.

[Dave W]

Why smoke reduces aggression and stinging:
• Smoke masks “alarm” pheromone (odor of banana oil [Ref 12, p594]) released by guard bees; other bees continue their routine rather than assume a defensive stance [Ref 15, p40, Ref 12, p595].
• When smoked, bees seek out and engorge on honey and nectar, w/ full stomachs they are less prone to fly or sting [Ref 15, p40, Ref 12, p595].

[Dick Allen]

I saw a photo once of a hive that had been through a fire. Part of the hive exterior was charred. As I remember some of the wax was melted, but not all. The bees, if I'm still remembering correctly, were reported to have stayed with the hive.

[tarheit]

I know a beekeeper locally that managed to set one of his hives on fire (stray ember from the smoker we think.) The bees stayed put (unfortunately).

-Tim

[xC0000005]

Jim - one of my laying queens took off on me last summer. It wasn't pretty. She did in fact stay airborne but it was really odd. She flew similar to the way that the bees do when they are dragging out other bees - not on level. I thought she was leaving but she circled around the hive a few times and then landed at the entrance and walked right in. Good solid laying pattern, but not top gun material.

[Ian D]

Hi all
My friend left a smoker on top of a hive!!!!!!!!!!!
He returned the next day to a pile of ash, bees included OOOOOOOOOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!


Regards Ian

[George Fergusson]

I'm in agreement with Jim on this. It's all about pheromones and the bees ability to communicate via odors. Smoking works on boxes of bees that don't have any honey to engorge on. So much for engorging. As far as absconding in response to a fire threat, it's pretty clear that the hive would have to do so without the queen. It takes them several weeks to slim her down for extended flight. It's not going to happen on the spur of the moment.

I think the "enorging" bit came from Langstroth. He's got a charming bit in his original "The Hive and the Honeybee" about using sugar syrup to spray his bees, claiming that bees full of honey are happy and contented and not inclined to sting. Not sure about this, but I know well that bees sprayed with sugar syrup aren't able to fly very well. The sugar spray may also interfere with their smellers. I'm not knocking Langstroth, he was a great beekeeper and a keen observer, but I think he was off-base with this one.

[CWBees]

What about Aficanized Honey bees that are known to abscond. Do they thin down the queen before they do this?

[George Fergusson]

All bees will abscond if the conditions warrant it, AHB are just more inclined to abscond as part of their normal behavior and EHB only seem to abscond due to dire circumstances affecting their hive. In either case, they need to prepare for it which includes slimming down the queen. Perhaps AHB have a leaner, meaner queen to start with and they can pick up and leave faster, I don't know. I any case, I just don't see bees, EHB or AHB, absconding immediately at the first wiff of smoke.

[Tors]

2500 hives burned out in the Grampians last summer, do'nt think any of them escaped alive.

[Michael Bush]

>What about Aficanized Honey bees that are known to abscond. Do they thin down the queen before they do this?

Yes, I believe any bees (including EHB) that are going to abscond slim down the queen before they leave. She really doesn't fly so well if they don't.

[Michael Bush]

>There was a news report this week on CNN about forest fire fighters getting up to 50 stings a day from EHBs while fighting fires in NWUS

Someone forgot to tell them the feral bees all died already...

[Dick Allen]

AHB's are reported to abscond when foraging conditions deteriorate. Little or no forage, then bees don't need to slim down the queen. Mother Nature does that herself.

Some beekeepers have reported that queens will occassionally fly off a frame by herself that's being inspected at season's end when the honeyflow is over or nearly so.

[naturebee]

--As far as absconding in response to a fire threat, it's pretty clear that the hive would have to do so without the queen. It takes them several weeks to slim her down for extended flight. It's not going to happen on the spur of the moment.--(George)


I hate to disagree but slimming down is not needed for a queen to fly. smile.gif

See this swarm, (estimated 10 pounds).

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n237/FeralBeeProject/honeybeeSwarm1.jpg

This was the result of a shakedown onto small cell foundation that I neglected to use a queen excluder. The swarm height was over 20 feet!

Not shown in the pic was the 4 times went up the ladder to catch the swarm, and the 4 times I came back down that ladder to hive the swarm, and the 4 times I realized I missed the queen, and the 4 times the bees along with the queen flew up to the same spot on the branch, and the 4 times I went back up the ladder to get them in 90 degree heat.

Also not shown in the pic is the can of beer and a nap I took on the grass in the shade to recover a bit. smile.gif

Lessen learned: “A ten pound swarm don’t fit in a five gallon bucket!” smile.gif
Plus: "fat queens can fly" smile.gif

[George Fergusson]

>Plus: "fat queens can fly"

There's an exception to every rule!

[Jim Fischer]

Oh sure - fat queens CAN fly, but not very far, and
not very well.

[naturebee]

--Oh sure - fat queens CAN fly, but not very far, and not very well.

Queen flight distance and ‘quality of flight’ are not always prerequisites for successful escape. Might be better stated that laying queens can fly well enough to abscond and escape.

[George Fergusson]

Joe, are you suggesting that bees DO abscond in reponse to smoke, or that they could if they wanted to or had to? I wouldn't put it past you- or myself for that matter- to argue one point while fundamentally agreeing with the other smile.gif

[naturebee]

No, I do not believe that bees instinctively abscond as a response to smoke from an encroaching fire.

Although, honeybees do frequently abscond from stresses, and stress from a predator or disease might occasionally be sufficient to cause absconding as well as the stress caused by the choking effect of smoke.

In effect, if and when honeybees do abscond from smoke, it is probably more likely that they are fleeing an intolerable stress rather than an evolved ability or physic ability to associate smoke with any sort of impeding danger.

[Velbert]

I have checked hives without smoke and if you look close there is not many filling up on honey or nectar.Puff a little smoke and watch lot of them start fill up on honey. also i have check hives will real low stores and they were a lot more meaner than the ones that had plenty while using smoke I think maybe the smoke does mask a lot of the alarm orders But when you use smoke and a greater amount is gorging on the honey there is sure a lot less bees giving off the alarm order because they are pre occupied gorging (so the hive is not as aggressive)

Also in a good Honey flow even the meaner hive is a whole lot gentler.

Have you ever cut a bee tree and didn't have smoke.or even if you do have smoke when you start cutting out the honey the bees will start calming down due to them gorging them self on the honey.

I had a fire in a yard of 9 hives they were charred on the outside but not one got up and left.

Don't really know why they will start eating honey when smoked. but they do and it definitely makes them to be calmer.


I have seen some 30 years ago working 3 hive down from a mean hive they were coming out and getting all rallied up and stinging use.It seem that smoke didn't do much good, but it was because with out it you couldn't even went into it.They didn't gorge on the honey in the hive like most of the other colonies BUT the smoke was not masking the alarm order very good ether the only way to work this hive was with lots of smoke keeping them ran back and as soon as it cleared they were wright back at stinging

[wayacoyote]

Tina h.
I had just read your letter in Bee Culture and was inspired, so to find you here is pretty neat.

Here was my sincere reaction to your question:

Do the experiment: Set up some hives or find some in hollow trees and do a controlled burn there. Monitor their reaction.

I'm not sure how much weight a "loaded" bee will take on above its normal body mass, but it seems like weighting a few thousand to get an average of the dry bee... bees who you know to not be filled with honey, and then weighting a few thousand after the smoke treatment should give some measurable difference if they do infact load up. This could be compared even to the weight of returing foragers during a flow as to see how much "loading" they do. Ah, also one could compare them to an emerging swarm who beeks have long decided were "loaded".

Sounds like a lot of work doesn't it? But the results, if done properly, should be Noteworthy.

Waya

[lisa h.]

Thank you, Waya, and thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Your suggestion about setting up my own experiment is a good one. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to do that right now, but maybe someday I will. I admit I am not at all keen on setting up a controlled burn that may destroy a hive, but it might have to happen if I did the experiment.

Judging from the responses I've gotten so far, it seems as if this 'leaving in the face of a fire' thing is probably just a myth. If so, what amazes me is why this belief has been passed down from beekeper to beekeeper for so long. The beekeeper who trained me gave me this explanation for smoking the bees -- and believe me, I really respect the guy! -- and I still see it on websites and even in some books. I'm beginning to think it's like that old myth of tanging the bees (banging on a metal pot or some other metal object) to make a swarm settle (by the way, has anyone ever tried THAT?). It's all pretty fascinating stuff.

As to bees filling up on honey in response to being smoked...you know, it's funny, but I have just never seen that with my bees. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I just don't see it in my hives when I smoke them. It sounds like some people here do see, and some don't. So that's kind of a mystery to me, too.

Oh,well...all I know for sure is, bees are pretty fascinating!

Lisa

[George Fergusson]

>If so, what amazes me is why this belief has been passed down from beekeper to beekeeper for so long.

People love to anthropomorphize, they don't even know they're doing it. Attributing human thoughts and emotions to insects is just too easy and fun not to do it. I do it all the time! My bees are happy or my bees are sad, or cranky! These behaviors are easy enough to see, it's explaining them in the context of human emotional responses that's not quite right.

When people's houses are at risk from fire, they run around, grab their personal effects and valuables, and bolt for the door or jump out the window. It makes perfect sense that bees would react the same way when their home is threatened by smoke, however you must first assume that bees know what smoke is, understand what causes smoke and that where there is smoke there is fire, that fire can kill them, so when they smell smoke, they better tank up on honey (their valuables) and prepare to vacate the premises.

Even more preposterous is fostering the notion that over the eons bees have somehow secured this knowledge in their genes, that it is inherited behavior. I can even hear the evolutionists among us dusting off the "survival of the fittest" argument in preparation for suggesting that this "survival response" was genetically passed on to honey bee colonies that survived wild fires by absconding and that dumb bees that didn't flee in the face of fire died off.

Anthropomorphism runs silent and it runs deep.

[Michael Bush]

I have tried to smoke bees out of a box hive (no frames, wild comb) and they never absconded. I was pouring billowing smoke in for some time. I got a lot of them bearding on the outside, but never got them to leave.

[Dick Allen]

>...so when they smell smoke, they better tank up on honey (their valuables) and prepare to vacate the premises

If anthropomorphising is attributing human behavior to other critters, what is attributing bee behavior to humans called? It makes perfect sense to me. If my house was on fire, I'd run to the refrigerator and eat as much as I could before leaving.

[George Fergusson]

That would be anthropocentrism Dick, and it's quite common. "Busy as a bee" is a euphemism that comes to mind. Usually, it is the behavior of drones that is attributed to human males- my wife refers to guys driving around in big loud pickup trucks with fat tires as "drones".

[carbide]

I don't why they do it, but I have never seen my bees NOT dive into the nectar in the cells when I smoke them. If I'm working in the hive for a while and don't smoke them they start to gather on the top of the frames. Add a little smoke and they dive back into the cells again. They don't dive into empty cells to get away from the smoke, they dive into cells with nectar in them. I can only assume that they're eating the nectar for whatever reason they have.

[SilverFox]

I do volunteer work at a local correction faculty and they are connected with DNR so have a large number of 'guests' of the state out on fire crews, the ones that I've talked to have all said that what was causing the stinging were in fact , yellow jackets-hornets-wasps, not honey bees.