Mystery solved, but HELP!

[Ben Brewcat]

OK, so the reason I couldn't find the queen, and there was no brood of any kind in the brood chamber? Yep, queen trapped above the excluder, one honey super full of brood. I figure she dropped down onto one with the opened hive stacked last time.

(For MB, all you "honey excluder" and continuous broodnest people... all together, with feeling: "I told you so". Thanks :D )

Anyway here's my newbie quandry. I'm requeening next week, so I was in the hive today to check stores and to cage up the queen (both to break the brood cycle, and so I can pop her out in the evening easily and introduce the new lady in the morning). I caged her in the lower deep, what used to be the brood box. I left out the excluder (what's the use with the queen caged), and left the broody honey super just over the stores deep. See diagram (you may have to expand the window th read the labels):
http://www.totalupload.com/uploads/c5f1833531.jpg

Need I put the brood closer to the (caged) queen? I'd like to not leave that shallow on for the winter, so if they'll hatch out the brood to later join the new (laying) queen below but still keep the queen alive for a week, I'd just as soon use this setup and go into winter with just the two deeps. There's a good population of bees; I think they could fill both areas adequately. It's hot daytimes here, 50s at night.

Good plan or fool's errand?

<edit> And also, I should start feeding now, a week in advance of introduction, right? That's why there's a deep on top of the Tarheit-inspired ventilation box, for a gallon mason jar.

[Ross]

I think you can leave it like it is, use the queen excluder to keep her down, let the shallow brood hatch, and all is good.

[Bob Nelson]

I would place the medium with the brood on the bottom (below the 2 deeps for brood nest) if introducing a new queen. The old queen and bees would tolerate her being pushed down from the brood in the honey super and re-establishing the brood nest down there. But I think introducing a new queen coupled with this manipulation late in the season would be risky.

I am assuming you are in a temperate climate (CO)and the bees cluster for significant periods over the winter. This time of year they need all the help they can get in not having their brood nest and stores arrangement disrupted.

I think your chances of introducing a new queen in the vicinity of brood are much better than by stores. Chances are she will start the natural movement up this fall and come a nice day in October you may be able to remove the medium. A slick way to do this without breaking the deeps apart (or lid/inner cover for that matter) is to lay the hive backward on the back side and pop the bottom board and medium off. Otherwise I would live with it on over the winter to assure the best possible outcome. Most likely that come next spring it will be emtpy.

Good luck on the new queen acceptance. Bob Nelson

[Robert Hawkins]

Looks good but that's not a newbee mistake. Just normal carelessness that we all continue to do. I feel like kicking myself sometimes. You have an excellent chance here to see if they put honey into the super after the brood hatches.

And of course when you have a free running queen, you want to exclude again. It's working.

Hawk

[Bob Nelson]

A clarification on the first paragraph on my above post. The manipulation I refer to in the first paragraph is not moving the honey super down but using a queen excluder to force the queen and brood nest down. From now on until spring it is much easier (and better for the bees) to work with them on starting low so they can move up as they naturally do.

Bob Nelson

[Ben Brewcat]

What do folks do to keep this queen-trapping from happening? Aside from those who eschew the excluder, that is. Two stacks when you're moving down the hive? I've been placing the outer cover upside down, and then rebuilding the hive upside down, alternating directions on the boxes, as I go through first the supers and then the deeps. My guess is she was in the top deep on the bottom part of a frame, fled the light down into a honey super below while I was working on frames in the brood chamber, and I trapped her there when I re-assembled the hive.

Any tricks to prevent this? One could use the excluder in the stack I suppose; I've been just leaning it aside to scrape burr from it. Or maybe bring along an inner cover or extra bottom board for seperate stacks?

Oh, and thoughts on feeding? Their stores are good (full deep, oof), but I've heard that simulating a nectar flow (1:1) will increase acceptance.

[Robert Hawkins]

I've only seen two solutions and you've got both of them. Good thinking, Ben. Remove the supers, place an excluder on top of them then place the brood boxes on top or... stack the supers separately from the brood boxes.

When you remove the queen excluder, check it for a queen before you set it down. If she's underneath and you forget to flip it... It's just downright rebarassing.

Ihave heard that a flow increses acceptance. I haven't proved it for myself. Let's experiment with your queens. okay?

Hawk

[Michael Bush]

>Need I put the brood closer to the (caged) queen?

I would put the queen in the middle of the brood. If you put her too far away they may start some queen cells. And if it gets cold they may abandon her to keep the brood warm.

[Ben Brewcat]

I'll have the new queen put in seven days from now (on the 12th). What happens to an introduced queen if there are queen cells, say with larvae, in the pipeline when she's introduced? Might they accept her or will they stick with the homegrown?

More succinctly: can I get away without shuffling the boxes before then, since the queen'll be in and free soon?

I'll start feeding for the introduction too; I'll post if they like her (or more to the point if they don't!).

[Les Evans]

Hi,
I notice that you have an entrance above your Brood area along with 3 other holes. Can I ask what the benefits are when doing this?
I am just getting started and am building a couple hives using the plans off of this site and am wondering if I should add this into the design or not?
Anything you can tell me about this would be greatly appreciated and very helpful.

Sorry for getting off topic.

[Michael Bush]

>What happens to an introduced queen if there are queen cells, say with larvae, in the pipeline when she's introduced?

They will usually reject the new queen. But it depends on how far along too. A day or two they will probably accept the new queen and tear down the cells. If they are capped they will probably kill the new queen and continue to raise their new queens. Either way the safest is to look for and destroy all the queen cells.

[Ben Brewcat]

Anyone have strong feelings about feeding vis-a-vis acceptance?

[Michael Bush]

Bees in a good mood accept a queen better. IF there is a dearth, feeding might help. If there is NOT a dearth it won't matter.

[Ben Brewcat]

MB sez
I would put the queen in the middle of the brood. If you put her too far away they may start some queen cells. Well, sure enough. Took five of these (http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/286/queencell8cl.jpg)out today! So I pulled every bleedin' frame, took out all the queen cells, and did put that brooded super under everything. On that went the bottem deep, then a shim with the queen cage, stores, etc. Also harvested! Thanks all for your help.