Why do I keep buying queens?

[Tia]

Probably because I am a nervous nellie newbie! You will recall I had a troublesome hive that I thought had gone queenless, so I ordered a queen and when she arrived and I went in to introduce her, there was a new queen laying as pretty as you please? Well it happened again--and with the same hive! Went in the other day and found only spotty drone brood--definitely drone brood; bulleted caps spread randomly all over the frames. I was positive I had laying workers! So I ordered a queen on Monday, June 14 from Weaver in California. Found her stuffed in my post office box (!) the following Monday, June 21, so needless to say, was anxious to install her. When I got home from work that day, I moved the hive to the other side of the property to do a shakedown. Shook down one frame and then something told me to take a second look. Went to the center frames, and there--pretty as you please--were beautiful, tight groups of worker brood! I don't understand what happened, but now this hive is queenright. So here I am with an extra queen (again). My oldtimer beekeeper friend had given me--for lack of a better description--a "miniature" hive: two 7-frame boxes, shallow super deep, complete with bottom board, queen excluder, inner and outer covers. I have no foundation for the frames, however, so using what I've learned from Michael Bush, and hoping they'll build their own comb, I took one frame of brood with bees from one of my strong hives and placed it in the center, flanked it with two empty frames then put two frames of honey with bees on alternate sides of those empty frames and then two more empty frames on either side at the wall. Of course, the empty frames I removed from the miniature I placed in the strong hive (I'll finally get to see if my bees will build their own comb!). I then released the attendants from the queen cage, sprayed the queen and the top bars with HBH and installed the cage. The bees seemed very interested in the new queen--or maybe the HBH--because they started checking out the cage, but showed no hostility or inclination to harm the queen. I placed the mini on top of the hive that started all this, but with the entrance facing the opposite direction. I intend to check on Sunday to see if the queen's been released. Does this sound right? I'm worried about the newly installed bees flying back to their original hive. What's everyone's thoughts on this?

[Michael Bush]

All of the field bees will fly back to the old hive. Almost all of the nurse bees will stay. If you shake a frame of nurse bees in it will boost the population. A frame of emerging brood will soon boost the population. I usually shoot for shaking a frame of nurse bees in and a frame of emerging brood in a any split. The rest depends on the situation, but a little open brood tends to anchor the nurse bees better because they require taking care of. A frame of honey is always nice in a split to make sure they have storesl. Honey/pollen is even better.

So, short version, in a split I try for at least one frame of honey/pollen, one frame of emerging brood, one frame with some open brood (could be the same frame as the emerging brood) and shake in at least one frame of nurse bees. If it's a bigger split, two or three frames of nurse bees is nicer.

BTW drone brood in a hive is not the sign of a problem. Spotty or otherwise. The bees raise drones when they feel they need more and don't when they feel there is enough. If it's all drone, that's not good. If there is a lot of drone in worker cells, I worry. It's a pretty safe bet you don't have a laying worker unless you're seen three and four eggs in a cell. I don't worry when I see a few cells with two eggs in the bottom, but if there are a lot with three or four, it's probably not the queen.

[Ricko]

Hello Nervous Nellie,
If you're new at this game,may I suggest getting marked queens. It sounds as though you're having trouble spotting her. Now from the sounds of it, you seem to be in and out of that hive all the time. How would you expect them to ever calm down and get back to work? And for frames without foundation, why do that? It sounds like a lot of work for the bees to give you a foundation that's not going to be straight,won't fit into full framed hive, and probably have a lot of drone cells too.
To save yourself a lot of work in the future,because it really sounds like you got caught unprepared, may I suggest having on hand 2 MDA Nuc boxes. They're made from waterproof corrugted cardboard, 10 frames and 10 sheets of Duragilt foundation installed and ready to go! Two potential new hives for a total cost of $37.25. This way you can move them into more permanent hives at your schedule. Just remember,no education is free! Just don't make anymore work for yourself than need be!

[Tia]

<All of the field bees will fly back to the old hive. Almost all of the nurse bees will stay.> That's what I thought.

<If you shake a frame of nurse bees in it will boost the population.>How do I know which are nurse bees? The ones on an uncapped frame?

<A frame of emerging brood will soon boost the population. I usually shoot for shaking a frame of nurse bees in and a frame of emerging brood in a any split. The rest depends on the situation, but a little open brood tends to anchor the nurse bees better because they require taking care of.> I chose the frame with the most diversified stages, but the majority was capped.

<A frame of honey is always nice in a split to make sure they have stores. Honey/pollen is even better.> Okay.

My problem was that the hive I took these frames from is the only one with brood in a honey super so I had to work with what I had. Upon reflection, I probably should've used a deep with division boards--that way I would have had a better selection of frames to choose from.

<If there is a lot of drone in worker cells, I worry.> That's why I was worried, there was a lot of drone--and only drone (bulleted caps)--in worker cells. As you know from my past history, I have a lot of trouble seeing eggs--even multiple eggs--in a cell, so I can't tell you what the egg situation was. Gotta buy a pair of those generic spectacles, I guess.

<If you're new at this game,may I suggest getting marked queens.> I always get marked queens. This hive was newly requeened by my oldtimer beekeeper friend last November and he never gets his queens marked.

<It sounds as though you're having trouble spotting her.> I'm a lot better than I used to be!

<Now from the sounds of it, you seem to be in and out of that hive all the time.> No, I go into my hives as little as necessary. The last time I was in this hive was about a month ago. I was checking my hives--just peeking under the covers--to see if they needed supers and although I don't remember what it was, spotted something that induced me to check deeper into the hive.

<And for frames without foundation, why do that?> I had seen a discussion on this board about foundationless frames and how bees draw their own foundation better and I thought the opportunity presented a chance for me to give it a try.

[Sharkey]

Well,
Sometimes a little humor can help, sometimes not. Hope this one helps.

"shallow super deep". Hmmmmmmm sounds like an oxymoron, sort of like "giant shrimp". :->



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It's Not The Destination, It's The Journey. We Cannot Change The Wind, But We CAN Trim The Sails.

[xen]

I think that was a grammatical error and she meant a shallow and a deep no? I always worry when I don't see the queen but usually she is there and sometimes seeing eggs or new larvae is good enough.I worry too much also and my old timer bee guru always tells me to relax and usually he is right!

[Michael Bush]

>How do I know which are nurse bees? The ones on an uncapped frame?

Pick a frame of brood, preferably some open brood on the frame, make sure the queen is NOT on this frame and shake the frame into the nuc. Brood frames have a high percentage of nurse bees. They also are likely to have a queen, so be careful.

>I chose the frame with the most diversified stages, but the majority was capped.

That works well for a small split. That way some is open to keep the nurse bees busy and some will emerge before long and boost the population.

>My problem was that the hive I took these frames from is the only one with brood in a honey super so I had to work with what I had. Upon reflection, I probably should've used a deep with division boards--that way I would have had a better selection of frames to choose from.

I was just talking about the ideal split. What you have is fine. But you can shake some nurse bees off of some deeps.

>That's why I was worried, there was a lot of drone--and only drone (bulleted caps)--in worker cells. As you know from my past history, I have a lot of trouble seeing eggs--even multiple eggs--in a cell, so I can't tell you what the egg situation was.

I've seen worker cells with drone in them when the queen can't find enough drones cells to lay in and the bees really want some drone. And it usually is a whole patch of all drone.

>Gotta buy a pair of those generic spectacles, I guess.

It depends on wether you're myoptic, presbyoptic or both. I'm mostly near sighted so I can look over the top of my glasses. But basically if you need glasses to read, you need themto see eggs.

<And for frames without foundation, why do that?> I had seen a discussion on this board about foundationless frames and how bees draw their own foundation better and I thought the opportunity presented a chance for me to give it a try.

I have seen some beautiful frames of all worker comb from foundationless frames. I've also seen some beautiful frames of all drone brood from foundationless frames. I've also seen some mixtures of both and sometimes I've seen a real mess. But then I've seen all those things using foundation too.

But the biggest appeal to me is natural sized cells without expensive small cell foundation and without the work of regression. It doesn't hurt that there is not contamination in the wax either.

[Michael Grodeman]

Ricko where you been hiding? Been looking for bee keepers in MI.

[Tia]

<two 7-frame boxes, shallow super deep> Yeah, that is kind of confusing, isn't it? I meant two 7-frame shallow supers. Duhhh?

[Ricko]

Michael Grodeman,I'm here in Rockford.Drop me an email!

[BjornBee]

Tia,
Whether a swarm or emergency queen rearing, there is a period of time that the hive goes with no eggs. Sometimes the queen loses her fertile eggs and at the end lays drone. For whatever reason, now is a time alot of hives are not queenright.
Is there signs of queencell remains. They break them down and are sometimes missed. Your hive could of replaced the queen and there was a pause in egg laying.

I'm not sure why the hive was moved and a shakedown needed for introduction of the new queen. Don't take this the wrong way, but you may be making beekeeping harder than it really is. Or taking too much advise.

I also have had many hives in the past I thought were queenless, ordered a queen, and then found the queen later. I keep a nuc box for extra ordered or raised queens, and always enjoy starting a new hive. At least with a marked queen, it will tell you later when you find the queen if its the same one.

[Tia]

BjornBee, you misread my post--I started a shakedown because I thought I was queenless with laying workers since there was only drone brood in worker cells on June 13. I waited for my queen to arrive and then started the shakedown on the 21st only to find perfectly normal worker brood (capped and uncapped), so I aborted the shakedown, but now had a spare queen. I've placed that spare queen into a "miniature" hive (a seven-frame honey super)with a frame of brood and two of honey/pollen from one of my strong hives. I'll be going into the "mini" on Sunday to see if all's well.

[Tia]

I am having more trouble this year than I did last year as a brand newbie! I went out to visit my mini hive today to see if the queen had been released. She had not. They had worked on the candy plug but I guess the hole wasn't big enough for Her Highness, so I cut the candy out and put the cage back in. She still wouldn't come out, so I finally pulled the screen off and put the cage back in. She came out, disappeared, and then I heard her piping. I closed up the hive, intending to go back in three days to look for eggs. After working in the garden a couple of hours, I went back to just glance at the outside of the hive. There were a bunch of bees on the bottom board. When I pulled them apart, to my horror I found a dead queen--a big, beautiful unmarked dead queen! That means there was a queen in the mini hive before I introduced the store-bought, marked queen. Which means of all the frames I transferred from the donor hive, I chose to transfer the one with the queen on it! I'm not too worried about the donor hive--it's a very strong hive and will more than likely raise a new queen. I'm just aggravated at my own stupidity and worried that since the bees in the mini were making such a fuss over the dead queen that they won't accept the new queen. You'll recall that when I initially installed the cage, the other bees were very interested, but were not showing any aggressive signs to make me think there was another queen in the box. I don't know if I'm looking for advice here as much as someone to tell me it's okay that I made such a stupid mistake!

[Terri]

I think it sounds like something the bees can fix.

The bees in the old hive will make a new queen. They have probably already started queen cells. In the new hive, even *IF* they reject the new queen, there is probably an egg in the new hive to make a new queen also.