Entrance on long side of brood box - anyone tried it?

[Mike Gillmore]

I'm curious if anyone has tried setting up a standard Langstroth hive bottom board with the entrance in the center of the long side of the box... so that the bees are moving in and out perpendicular to the frame direction.

I believe I have seen some TBH's set up this way and just wondering if there is any advantages or unseen pitfalls with this set up in standard hives.

[Jorn Johanesson]

Bees don't care. Old Danish hives was setup this way.

[snoopybee]

There is at least one supplier (can't rember who) that sells some sort of kit to do this. One argument is that you can work behind the entrance while really standing by the side of the hive, presumably disturbing the bees less.

[Ben Brewcat]

I think MB has done this; if I remember he called it the "warm way" of aligning the entrance, since the air doesn't as easily slide between frames. I've considered making migratory entrances shimmed that way. Be interested to see what folks' experience has been.

[Mike Gillmore]

Also, trying to picture the brood nest layout, it would seem that the center 5 or so frames in both boxes should have a well centered brood structure, making brood frame manipulation easier for the beekeeper in the spring when "opening up" the brood nest.
Don't know if thats the case... just daydreaming.

Another thought. I wonder if there is any natural pattern the bees follow in comb alignment with the entrance when taking up residence in, for example, an empty box or hollow tree?

[ December 09, 2006, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Mike Gillmore ]

[BjornBee]

I have seen this arrangement.

I still like the front entrance. I favor working from the sides of the hive. It matters none which one. Depending which side is easier based on the hive layout and room constraints.

With the side entrance, I would only then have the one side, that now being the long side to the back.

I tend to think its much harder to work the hives from the short side. That being the short side front or back as with a standard arrangement. It has to do with standing and reaching across the long way the box sits in grabbing frames. I think this reaching across angers and alerts the bees more also.

If I try working the hive from the back or sides, I will always favor the (long)sides. A side entrance takes away 50% of my options as to having both sides to work from. Sometimes this second side comes in handy with sun, seeing eggs, and other advantages.

I see no advantages of going against the traditional front entrance. If there was a need for additional entrance space or landing area, I could see it. But I have never heard a good reason to change to them.

[Sundance]

Bjorn has a good point. I am changing over
to all top entrances, front for sure.

[Mike Gillmore]

Good points BjornBee. But putting aside the convenience for the "beekeeper" in a traditional set up, I wonder how the "bees" would prefer to set up their home if the choice was left up to them. Perhaps they just don't have a preference.

[Jorn Johanesson]

I have removed a lot of swarms from walls during my active beekeeping life. Vax was build diagonal, warm build or cold build all dependent of space available. In the old Danish hives it happened that bees build back in hive and I have seen this done both way. Within a single hive confirm from first setoff.

[Mike Gillmore]

Does anyone have any historical data on skeps? How did the combs align with the skep entrance?

[George Fergusson]

>Does anyone have any historical data on skeps?

You could probably glean this information from the German Skep beekeeping videos linked over in the Diseases and Pests forum.

[betrbekepn]

The one thing bees DO seem to have control over is the placement of the combs, and that always seems to be at an angle to the entrance in tree hallow. So on a square hive, that would be in the corner. The bees will prefer entrance on the long side or as the Brit's call it, the "warm way". They DO care how high off the GROUND the entrance is, using a top entrance gives them protection from predators\improves ventilation. Here's someone experimenting with natural comb alignment http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters04/index.htm
I've gathered that bees naturally build comb east to west\northeast to southwest so that prevailing north\northwest winter winds are blocked by comb.

[ December 09, 2006, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: betrbekepn ]

[Brent Bean]

Beeworks.com out of Canada makes a hive called the DE hive which uses the entrance on the wide side of the hive. It looks like a good way to put the hive you have a better working position when you are manipulating the frames. If I would have know about this design when I started to keep bees I would have made all my hives this way. But to keep uniformity I will stick with the Langstroth style. I plan on making some new SBB this winter and I was thinking about trying a few.

[Mike Gillmore]

Jorn - "Vax was build diagonal,"

betrbekepn - "placement of the combs, and that always seems to be at an angle to the entrance in tree hallow."

This is very interesting.
Are there any others out there that do removals who have taken note of this?
Is there a consistant direction this comb seems to run... left to right, right to left?
Do they typically align the comb to face a certain direction?

Sorry if I'm being a pest with all of these questions

[Mike Gillmore]

George - "You could probably glean this information from the German Skep beekeeping videos linked over in the Diseases and Pests forum."

I've done some searches and can not seem to locate this video you referenced. If you could steer me in the right direction and give me a swift kick I would appreciate it,. smile.gif

[George Fergusson]

Hey Mike, I was kinda rushed before. You'll find them here:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000354

You'll find them part way down the first post, they're the "Heathland Beekeeping" series, there are about 8 of them. Really facinating, you'll want to watch them all. In one I recall they were getting new skeps ready in the spring by cleaning and repairing them, coating them with fresh cow manure, and gluing comb starter strips into the skep and inserting "spiles" (I think they were called spiles)- thin pointed sticks to serve as reinforcement for the yet to be built combs.

Enjoy,

George-

[al coble]

Brent,
There are two types of DE Hives. One is a new type of hive and the other is a conversion for the Langstroth style. The Langstroth conversion kit is a bottom board, inner cover, ventilation box and a top. The Langstroth supers are still used but are rotated 90 degrees.

Al

[Jorn Johanesson]

I have also those vidios listet on http://apimo.dk/bee_videos.htm

[mwjohnson]

why not use the standard Langstroth,with a "warm" side entrance,opening to the front?

You know,the hive 90 degrees to the normal way,and work from the back.No reaching across.

[Mike Gillmore]

"why not use the standard Langstroth,with a "warm" side entrance,opening to the front?

You know,the hive 90 degrees to the normal way,and work from the back.No reaching across."

That's kind of where this thread started. Amid all of the adventurous beekeepers out there, we surely must have "one" who has tried this.

[power napper]

I have noticed that when bees use duck boxes for their homes the combs are always sideways to the entrance. In other words you look into the hole and see the face of the comb.
Do not know why.

[balhanapi]

Even the skeps were given three foundation combs which were in the direction of the entrance not at right angles to it (thats what I was able to infer from the videos mentioned)
so not much info on the bees preference here either.. :(

And if www.beeworks.com (http://www.beeworks.com) is to be believed their DE hive kit(the one which is for lang boxes and changes the entrance towards the long side) actually increases the hive yield! well increased hive ventilation for the most part but who knows?

[balhanapi]

And MB uses the hive kits (or some modification). Whether he changes the direction of the entrance I don't know..

[Jim Fischer]

If you take a "standard" bottom board of either
the solid or screened type and remove one of
the "long side" stringers and make a short
stringer to plug what was the entrance at what
was the front, you will have just created a
bottom board that supports the "DE Hive" type
configuration.

The good thing about this set-up is that the
combs will be in a much more natural position
to a beekeeper who wants to stand at the rear
of the hive. Much less bending and twisting
for the beekeeper.

[Wee3Bees Apiary]

It seems to me that the bees always built the length of the comb along the longest space within the hive area. That is, if they built in a sub-floor, then the comb would run parallel to the floor joists (the long way; not perpendicular to the joists).

Another example would be that they would build the comb from opposite corner to opposite corner in a box or hive body without frames of any kind.

Then again, I have only observed about half a dozen in buildings and never in a tree. It was always the direction that they could have the longest comb whether it was vertical, horizontal or on an incline.

I honestly never thought about it before tonight though . . .

[ December 10, 2006, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Wee3Bees Apiary ]

[Finman]

.
In winter hive must be a little bit slanting forwards that water flows from bottom. With side entrance this does not succeed.

[Finman]

.

In good old days hives were mostly chest hives and frames were in another position than in the langstroth. Question, have some tried side entrance, - the answer is that it was most popular position 50 years ago.

.

[Finman]

.
Old style beehive in Sweden.

http://www.clipartreview.com/_gallery/_TN/7706889.gif

.

[Mike Gillmore]

"In winter hive must be a little bit slanting forwards that water flows from bottom. With side entrance this does not succeed"

Thats true Finman, I thought about that also. But if one were using screened bottom boards then trapped water would not be an issue, thus emiminating the need for slanting the hives.


"- the answer is that it was most popular position 50 years ago."

This is very interesting... as well the photo in your last post. I wonder why beekeepers decided to abandon this style hive for something else?

[Finman]

>Mike: I wonder why beekeepers decided to abandon this style hive for something else?<

Over 50 years ago hives were made very insulated and they were heavy. Bee stocks were was mostly relative to German black and colonies small.

My brother moved to Sweden 1970 and at this time Langstroth was very rare in Sweden. In Finland it become more popular.

The reason to take into use Langstrot was nomadic and professional beekeeping. And Langtroth was popular standard.

In our coutry, which is cold boath in summer and winter I have not heard that direction of combs has any meaning in wintering or getting yield. Big profitable hives take care themselves very easily. In my system lowest box has no brood for open entrance and I cannot understand what meaning it would be if entrance is here or there.

Many kind of bottomboards and ventilation systems are but they do not bring honey. Honey is in flowers and capacity/number of bees carry it into hive.

With electrict heating I have found that extra heat under +17C out temperature give great advantaqge to bees. That is sure. But what it has to do with direction frames, I do not know.

.

.

[Michael Bush]

I have done a lot of hives both ways. I like the "warm way" for working the hive. You're standing at the back and the comb is in the natural position to work it and you're not reaching so far for that far end of the comb all the time. But it takes more stands (in my case four by four rails) and they have more surface area when I put them up against each other, especailly with eight frame hives. The bees, in my experience, put the combs at about a 45 degree angle to the entrances. The bees, in my experience, do fine in a hive set up either way (warm or cold). Currently I've gone back to the cold way because I have all eight frame boxes and I have them all up against each other for warmth in the winter and it takes less rails to set them up. I was doing almost all of them the warm way when I had 10 frame hives and cleated migratory tops with shims for top entrances.

It's an easy experiment to try it. As Jim has pointed out.

[Mike Gillmore]

"It's an easy experiment to try it. As Jim has pointed out."

Thats true. I was planning to switch some of my hives over to top entrance this year due to skunk problems... so this might be a good time to turn the boxes 90 deg and try the warm way.

I appreciate everyones feedback. This has given me some new ideas to think about. Don't want to beat this thing to death, so I'll quit now.

Thanks again.

[TX Ashurst]

I cut a swarm/hive out of a friend's cabin last year. It was between the screen door and the exterior door, and the combs all ran the short distance between the two doors, with attachment all along the doorjamb and down the exterior (wood) door. Exactly front to back, which was more or less North-South.

I got a swarm out of a round metal tub with a sheet of plywood over the top and the combs ran more or less East-West, perhaps a bit NoEast-SoWest.

The bee trees I've seen seemed to me to have the comb oriented about 90 deg. to the biggest entrance. (There are often more than one.)
And that makes me wonder if they prefer an escape entrance?

[Oldbee]

Hello. All interesting observations and opinions/ideas. If I could I would build an obervation hive [and all the time], that was at least 6 frames deep and have the viewing area on the bottom and front also, to observe the bees activities as they enter the hive. Has anyone done that?

[Sarge]

The few cut outs I remember anything about, the combs lay from East to West at between a 45 and 90 degree angle to the entry point.
That is in Indiana.

[Mike Gillmore]

> the combs lay from East to West <

This is interesting. That has been noted in many cases with ferals and also confirmed in research articles I've found on google. If given an unrestricted opportunity, the bees seem to always construct comb east to west. There must be some preference the bees have to this alignment. Perhaps some day we'll understand why.

[Jim Fischer]

> In winter hive must be a little bit slanting
> forwards that water flows from bottom. With
> side entrance this does not succeed.

It is trivial to shim and slant the hive so that
the new "front" (formerly, the side) is lower
than the new back (formeraly, the other side).

[Jim Fischer]

The "direction" of comb building has been the
source of much myth and speculation among
beekeepers.

One of the better-illustrated studies of this
question was done by Ian Rumsey, and published
in the "Apis-UK" newsletter:

http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters04/apis-uk1204.htm
http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters05/apis-uk0105.htm
http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters05/apis-uk0205.htm

Ian's results agree with prior studies of this
subject. Bees will certainly try to build
planar combs, but there is no consistent
"direction" in comb building except the one
imposed by the orientation of the wider length
of the cavity in which the bees set up shop.

Much comb built in "empty" boxes (such as
boxes around pail-type feeders) tends to be
very "confused", anything but planar.

The same is also true of cell orientation, which
are built to align with the "top bar" of the
"frame" in which the comb is built, and also
lacks any mystical/magical aspects:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/9v2290rlaxrbl9fw/

Sorry to bring "reality" in the discussion,
I know from experience that this is the last
thing that some beekeepers want to hear, but
knowledge is power, and the truth will set you
free. smile.gif

[Dick Allen]

About a year and a half ago I started my first TBH. The hive was orineted lengthwise north and south so that the top bars were oriented east and west. The entrance of the hive was in the front south facing end. In the center top bars I put in some starter strips. When the bees were installed they went to the rear of the hive, ignoring the starter strips, and began building their comb in the north south direction. FWIW.

[Mike Gillmore]

Oh well. Looks like another case of the bees doing whatever they feel like doing at the moment. The responses were interesting none the less.

[Michael Bush]

>The same is also true of cell orientation, which
are built to align with the "top bar" of the
"frame" in which the comb is built

Having observed many hundreds of self built combs while looking for the orientation I'd have to disagree. In the same hive with the same orientation of the top bars there is a great variety of orientation of cells. If they were simply aligned to the top bars they should all be the same or at least CLOSE to the same. They are not.

Ian's observations are similar:
http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters04/apis-uk0204.htm

And you can see the variations in orientation that he observed here:
http://www.beedata.com/htcomb/index.htm


These were built onto a flat board so the orientation SHOULD be (according to the study quoted by Jim) the same. They are not.

[Finman]

.
What about orientation?

When I have hives, I may put entrance to east, south or west and even to north. In Australia they prefer north because their sun is shining from north.
.

[Jim Fischer]

> Having observed many hundreds of self built
> combs while looking for the orientation I'd
> have to disagree.

You could disagree, but you'd be dead wrong. smile.gif

Try reading the full paper, and repeating the
experiments at home.

[Fusion_power]

There is one and only one consistency in the way bees build combs. Its simple. They tend to build combs in the same orientation as the colony from which they came. If they came from a colony with combs oriented north/south, then they will tend to build combs north/south. This is not a rule, just a tendency.

Fusion

[Michael Bush]

>Try reading the full paper, and repeating the
experiments at home.

Try looking at the pictures on Ian's experiment and you can save yourself the trouble.

[Ross]

Here is what I normally see in the wild, big old combs, usually at an angle.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/cutout1.jpg

[Jim Fischer]

> Try looking at the pictures on Ian's experiment
> and you can save yourself the trouble.

Read the full paper, I dare you.
A little science won't hurt anyone.
(As Ross' .sig file says above "
The man who does not read good books has no
advantage over the man who can't read them".)

Yes, I'm sure you can dig up an anecdote or
two that might seem to contradict just about
anything, but the plural of anecdote is not
"data" nor is the collection of all known
anecdotes called "science".

There's a good reason why this is so.

[Kieck]

Yet the question remains:

Are the planes of honeycombs more likely to run parallel to a line of flight through the largest entrance to a hive, or perpendicular to that line of flight?

Or, do entrances influence the planes of comb built in hive at all? Do bees instead simply build combs to make the largest planes possible within any given space?

[Dick Allen]

>Having observed many hundreds of self built combs while looking for the orientation

>Yes, I'm sure you can dig up an anecdote or
two that might seem to contradict

'many hundreds' to me seems to be a bit more than 'an anecdote or two'.

[Dick Allen]

They tend to build combs in the same orientation as the colony from which they came.Mark Winston has said that too, in his 'Biology of the Honey Bee'

[Michael Bush]

>Read the full paper, I dare you.
A little science won't hurt anyone.

I just need $30 to buy this study that probably looked at less self built combs under less different conditions and less time period than I have, to find out what it says in the synopsis which I already know is not true:

"When bees were induced to build comb on substrates at four different orientations with respect to gravity, they always made cells with one vertex pointing directly toward the substrate. This produced horizontal and vertical cells on vertical and horizontal substrates, respectively, but yielded intermediate orientations on oblique substrates."

This is patently not true. I've looked at the orientation of every comb in many top bar hives and many foundationless Langstroth hives and the combs would be consistently vertical if this were true. They are inconsistently vertical, horizontal and everything in between as is also observed by Ian Rumsey, Dennis Murrel and others who have attempted to map out the orientation of the natural combs in a hive.

>Yes, I'm sure you can dig up an anecdote or
two that might seem to contradict just about
anything, but the plural of anecdote is not
"data" nor is the collection of all known
anecdotes called "science".

While hundreds of my careful first hand observation may be interpreted as ancedotal by you, it is not by me. It is first hand observation to me.

How is it "science" to accept the observations of someone else on something that is quite simply observed yourself? Science is not about taking other people's word for it. Try doing an experiment. Making a careful observation. A little science won't hurt anyone.

All it takes is one package of bees in an empty box with a bottom board and an inner cover and no frames. When they have drawn it, you flip it upside down and remove the boxes and do a careful cutout while making notes. I did this for the first time in 1974 and several times since with the most recent time about three years ago. Are you afraid you might learn something that disagrees with what someone else has documented? Something that might threaten your beliefs?

You could also go with foundationless frames or a top bar hive, but that would require equipment you may not have at hand, where simply leaving out the frames requires nothing you don't have on hand.

[Jim Fischer]

> I just need $30 to buy this study...

No you don't. Go down to your local public
library, and fill out an inter-library loan
form. In a few days, you will have a free
copy of the paper from a library with a
subscription to that journal. There is most
often no charge at all for this, not even
postage.

But you won't bother, will you?
No, I thought not.
At least I tried.

> While hundreds of my careful first hand
> observation may be interpreted as ancedotal
> by you, it is not by me. It is first hand
> observation to me.

Does the phrase "statistically significant"
mean anything to you?
No, I thought not.
At least I tried. smile.gif

[Michael Bush]

>But you won't bother, will you?
No, I thought not.
At least I tried.

Someone was kind enough to send me a copy, which I have read.

>> While hundreds of my careful first hand
>> observation may be interpreted as ancedotal
>> by you, it is not by me. It is first hand
>> observation to me.

>Does the phrase "statistically significant"
mean anything to you?

So the two colonies observed for four combs each in the study are "statistically significant" and the hundreds of colonies I've observed are not? Does the phrase "statistically significant" mean anything to YOU?

Now that I've read the paper, I see that the results are exactly what I have said for several years that they would be (and have had posted on my web site for that time) for one frame deep or the first frame or the "primary comb" as it is called by the "Housel" proponents. If you give the bees the ability to draw their own comb the FIRST comb will USUALLY (almost always) be vertical. I have observed it hundreds of times with only one exception:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/ConfusedPrimaryComb.JPG
and a closeup:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/ConfusedPrimaryCombCloseup.JPG

These are pictures of a primary (first comb) drawn in an observation hive (as in the study) that are horizontal but started in two places with opposite "Y"s in the bottoms of the cells.

Other than this comb the rest of the PRIMARY combs I've observed agree with the combs observed in the study. The problem is ALL the combs in the study are primary combs because they are the center comb in an observation hive. From my observations (in fifty hives over four years or so), the REST of the combs, if they were in a real hive, would NOT consistently be that orientation.