queen yes, eggs yes, brood no-populations dwindling --> updated w bee eulogy

[onelove]

There are two hives and they are both in a bad way.

Hive 1 is a swarm capture. It either had a drone layer or laying worker (single eggs in center of cells, but I think all or 99% drones) This hive is about 5 weeks since capture and is about to burn itself out because its got more and more drones. Still some workers left. Never spotted a queen in this hive. I don't see larva in this hive anymore, but there are still some capped cells (all bullet shaped drone cells, that I can see).

Hive 2 was the remnants of the Hive 1 swarm capture. I captured Hive 1 and a week later, the field bees (apparently) from Hive 1 had built some more comb, so I came and removed them 3 weeks ago. They had no queen. I added a purchased queen to that hive and they accepted her. She is in that hive and I see eggs, but no brood. Presumably, all those bees in that hive are too old to raise the brood.

Solution? I thought maybe give Hive 2 some frames with capped cells on them from Hive 1, in hopes that there are some nurse bees still there. Will these bees be aggressive to the queen?

I also thought to maybe just combine the hives with the newspaper method.

I don't know what would give the best chances for survival. Thanks, everyone, for input.

[ July 07, 2006, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: onelove ]

[Tors]

My 2 cents worth, unite and feed.

[iddee]

With that many drones, I wouldn't use the newspaper routine. I would take the drone hive apart and scatter the pieces around the yard. A few hours later, I would pick up each piece and if there were still bees on it, I would shake them off within about ten feet of the queenright hive. Then if any frames had honey, pollen, or worker brood, I would put those frames in the Queenright hive, The QR hive will accept the workers and the number of drones they want. The other drones will be rejected.

As Tors said, just my .02

[peggjam]

I would also be inclined to shake out the drone hive. Problem with uniteing them is if there is a laying worker, that hive will kill your queen. Best to do like iddee suggested.

[onelove]

thanks guys; I'll do the shakeout today and also feed, in hopes that we can get some nursers back in.

[Dave W]

onelove . . .

Whats your mite counts?

[onelove]

thanks dave, I've been seeing more and more mites, but don't use a screened bottom board right now, so I don't have a sticky board to give any exact counts. I attribute the greater mites to a stressed/weakened hive.

dismantled hive #1. the frames are sitting out in the yard. Its about 108 out there now, so I'll try to get back to em before the sun comes aroundd and melts em.

if only I could get a frame of brood to make some nurse bees!!!

[chief]

Hey onelove,

Did you have any luck getting that queen introduced? I wouldn't worry too much about nurse bees. I have heard that field bees can revert back to nurse bees but are not as good as real nurse bees. (Someone correct me if I am wrong about that.) I think combining the two hives sounds most reasonable. Especially if one is a presumed drone layer or laying workers. I have shaken out hives before but see no real need in leaving the frames out in the open. I just shook and brushed all the bees off several yards away from the new hive and then put the frames I wanted to keep, now devoid of bees, into the hive. Hope all goes well with your hives. Later.

[onelove]

yah chief, that carmel-ey queen is looking great - she just needs her supporting cast. I heard the same thing about the field bees reverting, so I think you are right. Now, if the bees will just do as we hope they will do.

Looking forward to having that queen get laying - I'll keep you posted m8.

-dave

[onelove]

ok, this morning (about 15 hours after doing the plan), I went to the hive and witnessed a bee battle. Let me set the field.

Yesterday, I scattered Hive 1. My bee yard is my backyard and its not huge, but I took the hive apart and put frames in every spot of shade I could find. 3-4 hours later, Hive 2 was still where it belonged and no battle was evident. ok. I shook out the frames that still had bees (probably 3 frames worth) about 10 feet from hive. They mostly flew right back to where the hive was, from what I could observe. (Hive 1 and Hive 2 were very close to start with) A few remained in the grass. Still no fight observed.

When I went to replace the frames, I found a good number with useful pollen, honey, and a little bit of capped brood (drones, as far as I could tell). I had more than 10 frames, so I put a queen excluder over the bottom and put 7-8 frames in a top box with the lid cracked (its very hot here).

This morning, 2 hours after dawn, I came out to see a good number of dead bees on the ground (maybe 50-60) and what looked like a robbing battle in the offing. Bees fighting at the front, and fighting at the top and bees excitedly surrounding the hive. Not a swarm type of ruckus and not orientation flights.

I closed up the top and put a 2x4 across the front entrance to reduce it by half. I was about to feed them to incent the queen to lay brood for a simulated honey flow, but, I held off so as not to make the situation worse.

1) do you guys think this was just robbing that happened to occur at the same time as the combine (my theory)

2) or, does this look like the bees duking it out for control of the hive?

anything else to do? thanks for helping me get this far, everyone.

[peggjam]

When I do shakeouts I usually take the entire hive about 50' or so, and shake everything out into the grass, and then remove all the equipment from that hive to the honeyhouse. I have really never watched to see what happens afterward, and I have only had to do this on a few occasions. With only one hive to choose, there may have been a slight battle going on, but I would tend to think that because you left the top open, that it could be a stronger hive elsewhere that is causing the problems. You might want to reduce your entrance futher to allow your hive to better defend itself. Other than that, it's a wait and see game.

[Michael Bush]

I have seen a combine duke it out. It's not a pretty sight.

[Dave W]

>I've been seeing more and more mites . . .

Summer Collapse – Bees develop in spring much faster than V-mites, whereas mites are slower to buildup and only reach high numbers in summer. By mid summer, as V-mites keep developing and the bees are reducing their amount of brood, a very critical point is reached (about July) where (on average) every brood cell may have at least 1 mite reproducing (maybe more than 1) and beekeeper can see the emergence of a large number of young bees that have suffered significantly from feeding Varroa.
 Feeding on developing bee may cause malformation such as misshapened wings and legs.
 Newly emerged bees may be smaller than normal, have crumpled or disjointed wings, and shortened abdomen

During late summer with the “natural decline” in both brood and bee population in a colony going into autumn, the existing population of mites is likely to infest a greater proportion of brood. At the same time, more mites are likely to enter individual brood cell. Late summer or fall inspection of highly infested colonies often reveals unhealthy looking brood. A spotty brood pattern, discolored cappings, punctured cappings, even uncapped cells. (Dead brood in all life stages; twisted, slumped, molten or dried scales.). Thus, bees are unable to carry out normal hive activities, robbing can occur, and colony suddenly collapses. Colonies that survive but suffer late-season brood loss are prime candidates for winter loss.

[onelove]

thanks dave, that's good info re mites. it seems quite possible that the mites have increased more so with the increase in drone brood. I just want to get a laying queen at this point.

for 2 days now, the bees have ignored the entrance feeder (1:1) - when I feel the glass on the feeder its always hot to the touch. I'm wondering if they don't like hot syrup for some reason? :confused:

jeez, I'm a basket case down here with all these problems.

[onelove]

the queen lays a lovely pattern. I can see eggs nicely laid and waiting for attention. However, nobody wants to care for them and they just shrivel up and die when they hatch. its a sad ending, but without some frames of brood to give the hive some nurse bees, I think this story is over. :(