Queen recommendations?

[The7Cs]

Well, I checked on the hives on Sunday and discovered that one apparently swarmed, and is left queenless. Since I bought the hives complete, I haven't had to order queens before, and I am looking for recommendations on where to get one this late in the season. Who has the highest quality stock from your experience?

[kenpkr]

I would check to see if there are queen cells in there and let them raise their own now. Then requeen in late august or early sept. I use carniolans and love how gentle they are, use less stores during the winter and have rapid build-up in the early spring. If there aren't any queen cells in the queenless hive and no eggs for them to use to make another queen, then take a frame of eggs/brood from another hive and put it in. They will use this to requeen. Just my opinion. Good luck!

[Jon D.]

Joe,
I would probably suggest moving a frame of brood over like kenpkr says. It is cheap. But it is not fast. I you quickly want a queen to get things going (or feel that moving the frame of brood would set that hive back too far), try contactin Sippybees on this forum. He sells Italians (with many good references) for very cheap. It would be a good choice too.

--Jon D.

[Mitch]

If they have just swarmed there is most likely a virging queen in your hive.They will not except a new queen if there is a virgin there. Give it a few more weeks and see if you have eggs.A hive will in geneal not leave them selves queenless.As said above if there are no queen cells in this hive.Try a frame of eggs from another hive if you have one.If they make no queen cells there is either a virgin queen or laying workers.I would bet there is a virgin or newly mated queen.The new mated queen will not be laying for about 10 days.

[Donn Buchfinck]

With my first hive I installed a swarm and I waited while they drew natural comb and didn't show any eggs, I got empatient and I put a frame of brood in and then someone gave me a queen I installed in a queen cage and 4 days later they had released hedr then I looked closer and there was capped brood.
So there was a vigin queen with the swarm and it took a little while for her to get going, I saw her the other day and she looked great.
So one of the fist lessons I learn is patience, sometimes it is better to wait.

[BubbaBob]

As said earlier, first you wait.

Then, if the hive is, indeed queenless, get a queen.

My preference would be:

1. Russian gold line from Purvis Bros in Blairsville, GA.
2. Russian blue line from Purvis Bros in Blairsville.
3. A carniolan. For one you might try Carl Webb or Bob Bennie. Both are in Clarkesville, GA.

BubbaBob

[Joel]

Bob, what are the Russian traits that make them your preference? I have used carnolians and like them, Pretty happy with buckfast, Cordovans, over the years but no Russians yet.

[mark williams]

Yep,& what is the gold & blue line?that is a new one on me.>>>>Mark

[Butterchurn]

The Purvis brothers have a website that explains the difference between the two lines. They are both supposedly v. mite tolerant.

The blue line is more true to Russian genetics and survives better in colder climates. It is also more difficult to get the bees to accept the queen when you attempt to introduce her.

The Gold line is supposed to be great honey producers with a more open brood nest and easier queen introduction.

For more info go to their site.

http://www.mountain-honey.com/productionqueens.htm

PBA breeding stock is made up of two separate large Closed Population Breeding Groups - Gold and Blue. All breeders are instrumentally inseminated. The strengths of both PBA Gold and Blue line bees are:


Strong survivors
Varroa mite tolerant
Tracheal mite resistant
Brood disease resistant
High honey producers
Gentle
Purvis Brothers Apiaries Gold Stock
Even though color is not a selection criterion for this strong survivor, the PBA Gold line bee is mostly light in color. PBA Gold is the result of an intensive 8-year, six way closed population-breeding program with an emphasis on Varroa tolerance and high honey production. Differences from PBA Blue (Russian/Russian) stock are:


Slightly higher honey production
Lighter in color
Easier to introduce
Brood pattern more spread out
Will produce brood during a nectar or pollen dearth
More propolis
If superceded or swarms, will remain gentle
Purvis Brothers Apiaries Blue Stock
The PBA Blue line is also a strong surviving, high honey-producing bee. 100% or the breeding stock can be traced back to USDA Russian breeders. Production queens are Russian/Russian crosses mated in a remote valley. Differences from PBA Gold stock are:


Will shut down brood production during a pollen/nectar dearth
Winters with a smaller cluster
Faster rate of spring build up
Tighter brood pattern
Darker in color
Over 100 years of Varroa mite exposure
Supercedure or swarming can result in a "hotter" hybrid colony

Ron

[BubbaBob]

Joel, Butterchurn gave you the details, but in short, I like russians because I like caniolians, and russians, as a VERY rough description, are carnis with varroa mite tolerance.

BubbaBob

[loggermike]

According to the email they just sent me they will be taking orders for fall queens on August 1,at which time it will be first come first served. So I dont think you can get any right now.I tried to buy 30.They have an impressive breeding philosophy-a pretty gutsy one in my book.

[Bob Harrison]

I wish people would quit calling the Russian line carniolan. Dr. Ruttner examined the Russian import for Dr. Tom Rinderer and found carniolan & Italian to be the least makeup of the Russian bee.
There are plenty of carniolan bees in Russia but NOT in the area of the export (Primorsky).
Ruttner said the import bees were A.m.macedonica.
I have got carniolan bees and a big difference exists between the Russian/russian and carniolans.
Two most noticable are body hair color & length of wings.

[BubbaBob]

Rob ... who called the russian bees carniolians? Not me ... re-read my post. I said the russians were carnis with mite resistance, as in traits, not genetics. If someone wants to know what russians are like, and that person is familiar with carnis, referring to them as carnis with mite tolerance is a fairly accurrate way to give a description of what russians are like.

BubbaBob

[BULLSEYE BILL]

The Gold line also produces a very pretty light golden bee. Took two months to fill three mediums of PC but are kickin' in now.

[Bob Harrison]

Sorry Bubba Bob! I was tired from a long trip and missread your post. A rough description *would be* like a varroa tolerant carni.

Another difference between the Russian and the carni which is noteable is the difference in pheromone. Has been told to me by those doing pheromone testing. Although not seen as a big difference perhaps by some researchers the bees notice the difference and introduction of races of bees into other races of bees is problematic. The Russian introduction has been the most difficult I have encountered in over forty years of beekeeping.

I have had less introduction problems with a Russian/NWC cross. The Russian/NWC makes a better bee than the Russian/Russian in many ways.

Temperment is the most remarkable. Loss of a part of the varroa tolerance is a drawback to all crosses i have played with so far.

I have got a cross now which I believe might be the best. Purvis Blue line Russian/Russian queens mated with Purvis gold line drones.
I am evaluating fifty hives but results will be a year in coming.

The keeping of a queen cell in the hive is a very unusual and common *Primorsky* Russian trait. A trait I have NEVER seen in any U.S. carniolan line I ever had.

A trait I see would be valuable in ALL mellifera lines. A trait I hope to introduce into other lines. One year I had 100% requeening on swarmed hives of Russian. All other races which swarmed requeened around 50% that year.
30-40 years ago when a hive swarmed all you lost was the honey crop. Every year the requeening after swarming problem seems to get bigger with commercial production purchased queens.
In queen breeding you hopefully get an improvement in the traits you select for. I doubt most queen breeders are selecting based on requeening after swarming.

[Joel]

Butterchurn, I appreciate the web link and the info I'll pay a visit. I'm more interested though in what someone who is actually using the strain thinks as opposed to someone who wants me to buy it. Your description I assume includes your own experiance which is of great value. Carni's have done well for us, add mite resistance, worth a try.

[Chef Isaac]

To the people to whom are workign with russian bees:

Do you find yourselves doing anything different to keep them from swarming? I attended our last bee meeting and a group of people did a project on russian bees. In short, they should us a picture with at least 35 or so open queen cells in one brood chamber.

Do you find that the purvas brother queens do the same thing?

[Butterchurn]

Joel,

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I have no experience with the queens from Purvis Brothers, but I plan on purchasing some queens to test. I thought you might like the info from their web page.

I'd like to believe their sales pitch, but the proof is in the pudding. So I'll buy some and give them a try. I'm looking at the Gold line to start out.

Ron

[Bob Harrison]

I have been using the Purvis Brothers bees for two years. I am very happy with both lines. I wrote the article on Purvis in the January ABJ.
I have got over a hundred of his queens installed.
Around 50+ of each line.

[Bob Harrison]

Chief Isaac,
Swarming has little to do with race and a lot to do with poor beekeeping management!
Swarm prevention:
Young queens and an open brood nest is a start and then enough supers so the bees have a place to cluster and don't have to hang on front of the hive.