PLANTING FOR BEES

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have read that plantings for bee forage is not generaly a profitable endevor.
OK, so this is a hobby.
I have ten acres of crop land left that was not put into CRP and would like to put it into use for the bees.
My area is just west of the Flint Hills in eastern central Kansas. Main crops in this area are wheat, milo, soybeans, corn and sorgum. Alfalfa and clover do quite well here, I do not know if canola would.
I know that the clovers will bloom at different times and there is some overlap, I do not know in which order they bloom. I have thought of sowing a mix of white, yellow, and red with alfalfa, however it may be better to strip sow them seperatly in hope of cutting them to possibly entice a second bloom.
I have quite a few questions and would like anyones input on how they would or have done this.
Some terms that I have read and do not know are the names; sainfoin, trefoil, and trifolium clovers. What are these?
The local co-op listed both red and crimson clover, is one better for bees than the other? Another that I had not know of is hubam.
And lastly, does anyone know of a source for goldenrod seed?
Any help would be appreciated.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

>Alfalfa and clover do quite well here, I do not know if canola would.
I know that the clovers will bloom at different times and there is some overlap, I do not know in which order they bloom. I have thought of sowing a mix of white, yellow, and red with alfalfa, however it may be better to strip sow them seperatly in hope of cutting them to possibly entice a second bloom.

And you could sell the hay.


>Some terms that I have read and do not know are the names; sainfoin, trefoil, and trifolium clovers. What are these?

Sainfoin. It's a very long lived clover from Asia and Europe. Some stands in Montana are 60 years old. Many clovers do not live that well for this long and have to be reseeded every other year. Sainfoin does not need to be reseeded. It can survive -40 F or more and requires a soil rich in lime. It is drought tolerant. Might do well where you are if you have a lot of lime in the soil.

Trefoil. It's a legume most like alfalfa, but with a more triangular leaf. It's a bit more hardy than alfalfa, tolerates more variance in soil type and is popular for plantings for wild animal habitat because it does well for a long time without intervention. This should do well for you. I have planted it, but my horses eat it before the bees get to use it, so I can't say how the nectar is. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

Trifolium. This is just the genus for clover. All of them are trifoliums. It means, (can you gues?) it has three leaves. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I have planted, white, sweet, red, crimson and some kind of subclover along with alfalfa and trefoil. When it managed to bloom, without being eaten by the horses, because it's in one of the areas the horses can't get to, then sometimes the bees are all over them and sometimes they ignore them. I think it depends on what other crops are available at the time.

>The local co-op listed both red and crimson clover, is one better for bees than the other?

Actually I was under the impression the sweet clover was better, but the bees seem to like them all.

>Another that I had not know of is hubam.

This is one kind of sweet clover and I think it will work well if you have clay soil and a ph of 7 or higher.

>And lastly, does anyone know of a source for goldenrod seed?

It's a weed, but I have no idea where you could buy seed. You could probably keep you eyes open and find some along the road right of way and either get seed or transplant some. I think it will spread quickly if the grass has been plowed under.

Another weed you could get from roadsides is chickory. The bees seem to love it.

I'm going to plan buckwheat for the bees. It's cheap enough, it's an annual, but if you do several plantings in the spring so they bloom at different times, it will go to seed and the seeds will come back up the same year. If you time it right I think you can have buckwheat blooming for them from fairly early spring until the winter freeze, and the bonus is the honey is worth more. If you want you can cut the buckwheat for hay just before it goes to seed. The animals all love it. But then you'd have to replant it.

Another plus, if you like deer, the deer love all of the clovers and the buckwheat.

I never get to cash in on this as the horses beat them to it.

[rainesridgefarm]

I have planted buckwheat. 10 acres of it and it will bloom and set seed from about 35 days after planting until a frost kills it. When you walk through it the smell is great. The bees only feed on it very early in the morning till about 10:00 then they stop. If you let it go to 60 to 70 days you can plow it under and the seed from the plants will grow the same year. If you plow down the second growth it makes a great green manure crop. We let ours grow and did not combine it in the fall. We had anywhere from 30 to 50 deer out there all winter long. Oh and by the way the amount of buckwheat honey they brought in was amazing it total zero. They prefered the uncut alfalfa field to the north. I would stick to white and yellow sweet clover and mix in some hairy vetch. Plant it in the spring then no till some in the following fall so you will have alternating blooms.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Might do well where you are if you have a lot of lime in the soil.

Limestone everywhere, the soil here is black gumbo, sticky when wet and hard as concrete when dry.

I will check into the trefoil.

>The local co-op listed both red and crimson clover, is one better for bees than the other?

I read that the red and crimson is better suited for larger bees which have longer toungs.

>Another that I had not know of is hubam.
This is one kind of sweet clover and I think it will work well if you have clay soil and a ph of 7 or higher.

I will have to check the ph. I had to neutralize it in the garden with bonemeal.

I found a source for goldenrod seed, my pockets aren't deep enough for it though, $12. per ounce, $125. per pound! I seem to remember about where I saw some in the ditch, guess I'll have to go hunting for that place.

I will also look into the hairy vetch. Looks like so far that my best bets are white and yellow clover, alfalfa, hairy vetch, trifoil, look for some goldenrod seed and perhaps chickory.

OK, now the rest of you have to have some ideas too! Don't be shy... I appreciate the help.
Bill

[clintonbemrose]

I have much goldenrod in my fence rows and the bees seem to love it. It makes a very late, dark, strong honey that many people don't like and it granulates in about 4 to 6 weeks. Some people like it but many don't. Once started Goldenrod spreads like wildfire. The crop that I raise that the bees seem to like is sweet clover but you need to let it flower before cutting it for hay. Cutting it means that you will need to replant yearly. We use it for hay and green manure to rebuild the soil for other crops in rotation.
Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[franc]

Ive always thought a few acres of black locust trees would be a nice honey planting.The per/acre yeild is one of the highest at about 1500 lbs a acre potential.Its usually a pretty dependable crop just make sure the seed source came from trees north of your location.The land could be put into Forest Reserve to save on taxes and the trees could be coppiced for fence posts or small logs.

[Michael Bush]

You can buy sourwood trees from Gurneys and they are supposed to be able to grow as far north as me, in South Eastern Nebraska.

I love locust wood, and I like the trees, but I would not want to be cutting them into posts or logs. Those thorns hurt for weeks afterwards.

Also if you have horses here's some thoughts:

"BLACK LOCUST
Robinia pseudo-acacia
(pea family)

TOXICITY RATING: High to moderate.

ANIMALS AFFECTED: Horses are particularly at risk, but all animals ingesting the plant may be poisoned.

DANGEROUS PARTS OF PLANT: Leaves, especially wilted leaves, young shoots, pods, seeds, inner bark.

CLASS OF SIGNS: Depression, poor appetite, weakness, paralysis, abdominal pain, diarrhea (which may be bloody) and abnormalities in the heart rate and/or rhythm. Death is possible. "

This is from http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/plant48.htm

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have not had any goldenrod honey, I have read some discussion here on this board and was looking for nectar plants that would be blooming in the late fall, mainly for stores to overwinter the bees. If it crystalizes in 4 to 6 weeks I would think that it would not be that good of a choice.

We do have locust trees, whether they are black or not I am not sure. I went to Michaels link he posted and the leaves seem to be right. The thorns on ours are four to eight inches on the trunk of the tree.

>I love locust wood, and I like the trees, but I would not want to be cutting them into posts or logs. Those thorns hurt for weeks afterwards.

Amen to that! It makes good firewood, but tends to rot quickly. We put Osage Orange in the ground here.

We have never been without horses, I guess that we have been lucky not to have any get sick from snackin' on locust trees.

Guess I'll go dig out the Gurneys catalog, sourwood, eh?
Bill

[Brandon Shaw]

Franc,

Could you share where you obtained your yield information? Thanks.

I would like to plant some nectar sources in nearby ditches and possibly railroad tracks. Both have established grasses and other weeds/flowers, with more gravel than soil. Any thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Brandon Shaw (edited February 05, 2003).]

[franc]

Brandon theres alot of info just use a search engine to search the net.As I remember I read the yeild in a book about nectar plants in the midwest It was awhile ago.Anyways I did alittle searching and I found this link hope this helps. Http://www.apitherapy.com/beeplnts.htm

[Brandon Shaw]

Thanks Franc. According to that link, the white clover is supperior in honey production to red clover. The silver linden tree looked quite promising as well.

[Michael Bush]

Maybe a more reasonable goal in planting for bees isn't a large nectar crop, which they will find on their own anyway, but an early source of pollen and nectar to stimulate early brood rearing?

[rainesridgefarm]

That would be Maple trees and dandalions. So in early spring let those dandalions go to seed before you mow the lawn.

[dragonfly]

http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/book/index.html
The above website has some good info on pollination of various plants and the nectar content of these plants. I have only been beekeeping for a year, but bee planting has become a major interest for me since gardening is my primary hobby. In fact, the garden is the reason I started keeping bees in the first place. During the Fall, I noticed the wild asters were covered with bees, so I saved seeds from the plants after the bloom and have planted them in flats to set out during the Spring this year. Some other late season bloomers that bees reportedly like are ironweed, Joe-pye weed, wild phlox, boneset, smartweed, thoroughwort, and sunflowers.

[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited February 07, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

>Some other late season bloomers that bees reportedly like are ironweed, Joe-pye weed, wild phlox, boneset, smartweed, thoroughwort, and sunflowers.

I wasn't aware that sunflowers had much nectar. I'll have to look into that.

Around here the smartweed is very hard to control and I would not want to plant it.

As to early season, I get friends in town to gather their dandelion heads and I plant the seeds all the time.

[Michael Bush]

>Some other late season bloomers that bees reportedly like are ironweed, Joe-pye weed, wild phlox, boneset, smartweed, thoroughwort, and sunflowers.

I wasn't aware that sunflowers had much nectar. I'll have to look into that.

Around here the smartweed is very hard to control and I would not want to plant it.

As to early season, I get friends in town to gather their dandelion heads and I plant the seeds all the time.

[dragonfly]

I'm not sure how much nectar sunflowers have, but I have read that some beekeepers specialize in sunflower honey, so there must be a fair amount, or maybe it just depends on the variety of sunflower. I have read that smartweed makes good honey. Any experience on whether or not this is true?

[clintonbemrose]

Sunflower honey is great.
Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[Michael Bush]

>I'm not sure how much nectar sunflowers have, but I have read that some beekeepers specialize in sunflower honey, so there must be a fair amount, or maybe it just depends on the variety of sunflower.

I don't know. I guess I always just figured they were going for the pollen on them.

>I have read that smartweed makes good honey. Any experience on whether or not this is true?

I try not to have any smartweed and I don't have much, but I have friends who have a lot of problems with it. One of them also has a hive, I'll have to ask him if he's noticed, but my guess is there are still so many things around that it would be hard to say if it was smartweed honey.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

As I understand it, the type of sunflowers do make quite a bit of difference. Plant the gray stripe for bees, the black seed type is for oil and not very good for bees. I don't have any information on wild sunflowers.
Bill

[Ian]

Smartweed!! Blahh...
I spray Smartweed out of our crops every year. It can be a curse if it is not dealt with early. Grow something worth while!
Sweet clover is a gold mine for any neighbouring beekeeper. Seed it thick, collect the supers full of honey, and harvest the seed after bloom. Win win situation.

Ian

[dickm]

I've read the discussion and am surprised at two things. No-one mentioned Sumac (white and red) as a weed you could grow. And I thought red clover was no good for bees because their little tongues won't reach the nectar. Set me straight.

[dragonfly]

My understanding is that red clover (which has pink flowers) is great for bees, but that crimson clover is not good forage- at least I think that's what I read. I'll try to find my article on clovers and check to be sure.

[Jack Grimshaw]

Bill, Try these links.Dr. George Ayers has written extensively on bee forage.taken from a google search of MSU Web site.

The Other Side of BEEKEEPING: July 1992
... has convinced me that this is so (Ayers et al. ... provide the best opportunities for
making bee forage plantings ... might be satisfied simply with keeping the valleys ... www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/jul92.html (http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/jul92.html) - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

The Other Side of BEEKEEPING: September 1993
... By GEORGE S. AYERS and SANDY AYERS. ... of much of that lawn with a low maintenance, low
growing, bee forage ground ... We have no information on their keeping qualities ... www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/jul97.html (http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/jul97.html) - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

The Other Side of BEEKEEPING: September 1993
... 1980's when the Michigan State University bee forage project was ... from our diversionary
planting study (Ayers et al ... the screen of the cage was keeping the plants ... www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/sep95.html (http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/sep95.html) - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

The Other Side of BEEKEEPING: January 1993
... Editor of ABJ) provides a valuable service by keeping the Apicultural ... also the genesis
of my interest in bee forage ... in their entirety are referred to Ayers et al ... www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/jan93.html (http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/jan93.html) - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

The Other Side of BEEKEEPING: September 1993
... by GEORGE S. AYERS and SANDY AYERS. ... 1. Desirable properties of a low maintenance bee
forage planting. ... slow down the herbivore's feeding rate by keeping it small ... www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/mar99.html (http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/mar99.html) - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

The Other Side of BEEKEEPING: September 1993
... error is the best way to proceed, keeping what seems ... Copyright © 1992-1999, American
Bee Journal All rights reserved. ... Document author(s): George S. Ayers E-Mail ... www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/mar96.html (http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/Article%20pages/mar96.html) - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

First pollen in CT. is skunk cabbage.Look in the purple "hoods".Pale green pollen

Jack

[mikeaegina]

Does any one knows Phacelia Tanacetifolia?
I don't know the name of it in English. That flower gives about 40 Kg of honey for every 1000 sq. mt. and wants almost no water.

[This message has been edited by mikeaegina (edited February 09, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

>Does any one knows Phacelia Tanacetifolia?
I don't know the name of it in English. That flower gives about 40 Kg of honey for every 1000 sq. mt. and wants almost no water

Pacelia Tanacetifolia aka Lacy Phacelia aka Purple Tansy aka Fiddleneck. Annual. Native to AZ, CA, KS, ME, MA, MI, NV. No idea why so wide a variety of climtates and why only there.
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_profile.cgi?symbol=PHTA

[dragonfly]

Phacelia (aka purple tansy in this area) is supposed to be an excellent bee plant. I hope to find out this Summer, as I sowed a pound of seed last Fall.

[Jorge]

Any suggestions as to where to get some seeds?

Thanks

jorge

[dragonfly]

I bought my seeds for tansy and other wildflowers from Wildseed Farms in Texas. Here's a link to their website: http://www.wildseedfarms.com

[Michael Bush]

http://www.thehealingpath.com/OrganicBeekeeping/honey_bee_forage_bee_gardens.shtml#earlyandlatefor age

This is a list of early and late bloomers for bee pasture.

[mark williams]

I've heard a lot about Anise hyssop for bees,& was wondering if anyone has planted it?what type of soil & etc does it require, also where to get any seed's thanks

[rainesridgefarm]

You can get a good price from Johnnys select seeds. They are in Maine. I bought 4 pounds last year but never got them in the ground. Having two gardens 175 x 75 each took to much time to get everyhing in the ground. I have heard and read that they love the anise hysop

[dragonfly]

Anise hyssop is also a great bee plant, and it supposedly does well in this area, but the seeds I planted last Fall have yet to emerge, so I am doing some winter-sowing in containers. Some of them are starting to germinate now, but I probably won't have any flowers until Spring or Summer 2004. Ayers has written some good articles on the value of hyssop for bee forage. It apparently does not do well with competition from other weeds, so it would need to be sown in a well-prepared site to help it thrive. I bought my seeds for hyssop from Prairie Moon Nursery, which is another great source for wildflowers, perennials forbs, and some trees and shrubs.

[grizbach]

I am posting to warn about the tansy plant. Once it goes to seed, it is almost imposible to erraticate. My father-in-law planted some about 3yrs. ago, and now he has tansy all over his yard.
I am sure it may be a good bee plant, but we must concider all the effects before introducing another speices.

[clintonbemrose]

Please be careful about the Tansy (Tanacetim vuleare) as the bees love the flower but other animals find it toxic when they eat it and it can take over an acre in 2 years making it unfit for other animals.
others that are good for bees but bad for other animals aer these 2 weeds that can take over an acre of ground in 2 years and mildly toxic to farm animals.
Spotted Knapweed - Centaurea maculosa Lam
and
Purple Loosestrif - Lythrum salilicaria
All 3 came from Europe
Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[Jack Grimshaw]

Greetings all,
I have anise hyssop in my garden and it will self sow and spread although it is easily disrupted in the early spring.Oddly,my bees seem to ignore it when it flowers(aug- frost}and are atracted to the oregano 6 feet away.


Clint Bemrose brings up a very valid point.As beekeepers ,we consider ourselves to be enviromentally conscious. Invasive plants(and animals ie. Africanized Honey Bees and Gypsy Moths)are a serious problem and just because something may be a good bee plant doesn't mean its a good plant.Check out http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/common.htm
and see how many "honey plants"you recognize.

Jack

[Jess]

Sorry for this late post but I just found this board. Someone posted that their locust tree had long thorns on the trunk. That is a Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos), not a black locust. Oddly, the black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) is the nectar producer around here although I have never seem the honey locust in bloom to tell if bees use it. Black locust thorns are paired at the bases of the leaves. We have many black locust trees in our yard and area. When they are in bloom you can hear the hum from the number of bees working them. Unfortunately like most trees the bloom lasts only a week or two and often strong spring storms will completely deflower the trees. They smell wonderful in bloom.

Someone else thought the wood rotted easily. Actually the opposite is usually true as they were historically used for fence posts. We use them to line our gardens and they have lasted on the ground for many years.

I too planted anise hyssop after reading in Pellet and eslewhere that it was "the wonder honey plant". Wrong. The honeybees almost never use it. Only a few have ever been noticed on the planting and they left after a short visit. The bumblebees love it. Intoxicating licorice fragrance though. And I don't even like licorice.

I also noticed that the bees only use buckwheat in the morning.

I have never seen a honeybee on the ironweed growing around here. Maybe need more plants. They do like joe pye weed (all eupatorium species actually; summer bloomers). Milkweeds are popular also and bloom in the summer (Aesclepias species). Many of the herbal mints like oregano are attractive and bloom over a long summer period. Russian sage, a low shrub, is another. Basil plants are favorites.

Honeybees do use the smartweed growing around our garden but it is a non native weed. Goldenrod and aster are great late summer to fall nectar and pollen sources that are both native and readily spread on their own once established.

In truth, bees really aren't going to get much nectar from a few plants added to your landscape. They need mass plantings, agricultural in scale, especially for herbaceous plants. I would suggest trees if you have the room as they produce abundantly, if only for a short while, and a single tree will harbor dozens of bees in the same area occupied by just a few shrubs or plants. Drawback: Most trees only bloom in the spring (tuliptree, black locust, willow, maple, basswood, etc), not in the summer when we need them most.

Plant natives if possible. Many introduced plants and trees are wreaking havoc.

Whew. Sorry for being so long winded.

[Jess]

Sorry for this late post but I just found this board. Someone posted that their locust tree had long thorns on the trunk. That is a Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos), not a black locust. Oddly, the black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) is the nectar producer around here although I have never seem the honey locust in bloom to tell if bees use it. Black locust thorns are paired at the bases of the leaves. We have many black locust trees in our yard and area. When they are in bloom you can hear the hum from the number of bees working them. Unfortunately like most trees the bloom lasts only a week or two and often strong spring storms will completely deflower the trees. They smell wonderful in bloom.

Someone else thought the wood rotted easily. Actually the opposite is usually true as they were historically used for fence posts. We use them to line our gardens and they have lasted on the ground for many years.

I too planted anise hyssop after reading in Pellet and eslewhere that it was "the wonder honey plant". Wrong. The honeybees almost never use it. Only a few have ever been noticed on the planting and they left after a short visit. The bumblebees love it. Intoxicating licorice fragrance though. And I don't even like licorice.

I also noticed that the bees only use buckwheat in the morning.

I have never seen a honeybee on the ironweed growing around here. Maybe need more plants. They do like joe pye weed (all eupatorium species actually; summer bloomers). Milkweeds are popular also and bloom in the summer (Aesclepias species). Many of the herbal mints like oregano are attractive and bloom over a long summer period. Russian sage, a low shrub, is another. Basil plants are favorites.

Honeybees do use the smartweed growing around our garden but it is a non native weed. Goldenrod and aster are great late summer to fall nectar and pollen sources that are both native and readily spread on their own once established.

In truth, bees really aren't going to get much nectar from a few plants added to your landscape. They need mass plantings, agricultural in scale, especially for herbaceous plants. I would suggest trees if you have the room as they produce abundantly, if only for a short while, and a single tree will harbor dozens of bees in the same area occupied by just a few shrubs or plants. Drawback: Most trees only bloom in the spring (tuliptree, black locust, willow, maple, basswood, etc), not in the summer when we need them most.

Plant natives if possible. Many introduced plants and trees are wreaking havoc.

Whew. Sorry for being so long winded.

[hoosierhiver]

i'd have to vote for 1)sunflower2)buckwheat,if you want to put some trees in, black gum (tupelo),are great,also buttonbsh if you have any moist areas,buttonbush matures quickly and bees love it,they also bloom for most of the summer.

[dragonfly]

It's so funny you mention buttonbush. I spent lots of time in late Fall collecting seeds from wildflowers and shrubs that grow wild on our place. One of these shrubs was a bushy plant that I couldn't identify, because the flowers were already gone to seed and the leaves had fallen. I collected the seeds off these "puff ball" shaped flower heads and I had ordered seeds for buttonbush from Prairie Moon Nursery. When my seed order came in, I was so surprised to see that the seeds I had collected were buttonbush seeds. I had all I could ever need from my own plants, but didn't know what they were! Now I have a healthy surplus of buttonbush seeds, so if anyone needs seeds, let me know. It was a funny little lesson in not paying attention to what's at your disposal.

[hoosierhiver]

another thing about buttonbush,you can pretty much cut off a twig and jam it into moist ground and it will grow,of course sitting a cutting in a bottle with water till it sprouts will have better results.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have heard many trees mentioned here but not the catalpa tree, also known as the Indian bean.
It blooms multipal times during the year and we have many of them on our grounds. It would be just my luck that their flowers are too long for the bees to get inside of, or that they do not produce any nectar...
Anyone? Thanks,
Bill

[hoosierhiver]

catalpa is listed as a honey source in THE HIVE AND THE HONEYBEE,but does not say much and does not indicate it is especially important to bees.

[hoosierhiver]

back on the subject of goldenrod,my bees are very picky about it,i know here in indiana there are over 40 species of goldenrod,my bees don't sem to like some types at all,other ones they hit on only after all the joe-pye weed is finished.i do recomend joe-pye weed its easy to grow,big and pretty.i've found that if you have an area of fescue,cut it short once early in spring to get the grass short and then the field wild flowers will have a good chance to get established, i also sometimes burn patches of grass,it does wonders.

[thesurveyor]

I noticed a question was raised concerning the honey locust. I have a tremedous amount of these trees on some property I own. I plan on putting a couple of hives on this property this year. If anyone has any info on whether the bees will get a honey flow from this tree, I would be in your debt. I have tried to get the book honey plants of North America, and have been unsuccessful in getting a copy..


Thanks
Thesurveyor

[hoosierhiver]

sorry surveyor,but as far as i know,honey locust are not used by bees,only black locust.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

My planting experiment is underway!

I planted eleven acres this last weekend. I decided on five distinct areas of forrage.
Three acres of Yellow clover
Three acres of Huban clover
Three acres of Alfalfa
One acre of Canola and
One acre of Safflower/Sunflower mixed

The bad news is that I am told that the clover will not bloom the first year, that it needs a dormant period first. Well, we will still have plenty of forrage for this year.

You have been a great help, I have identified many plants on my property that I had not known to be nectar producers. I am looking to have a good year.
Bill

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited March 17, 2003).]

[mark williams]

has anyone ever had bees on strawberry's?,I've read alot about it, they say bees don't get much from it & you need to put the bees on it about 4 or 5 days after it blooms,I'd like to get some info on this because they are several people planting it around here,(it's u-pick farm's),some has asked me about placing bees on the crop's. thank you for ANY help. mark

[hoosierhiver]

mark, i don't know about the value of it as a nectar/ pollen source,but i know bee's do work it,i saw an interesting story years ago that i had forgotten,some university tried bees as a way to deliver a powder(i can't remember what) to strawberry blossoms instead of spraying the plants by hand/machine,the treatment was to prevent a fungus or something,and thus a better crop.the bees would walk through the powder as they were going out to forage.they claimed their bees did a much better job.this also was supposedly harmless to the bees.anyway sorry i can't remember more,maybe it's on the web somewhere?

[Glenn West]

I believe this is the study to which you are referring --> http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000572AF-76C8-1C61-B882809EC588ED9F

[newguy]

In "The How-to-do-it Book of Beekeeping," it says that buckwheat only secretes nectar in the morning. Sorry, I couldn't find the page.

[Whitetailman]

Last year was my first year for harvest and the honey was absolutely beautiful. I was told by local beekeepers that the white clover was reason. I have planted quite a bit for the last several years for deer food plots. It looks like the bees was an unexpected addition to the benefit. I planted more in the February snow.

[hoosierhiver]

i think that some beekeepers never see a particular plant being worked by bees,and assume it's not used,but bees visit different plants at different times of the day,i'm not an early riser so i usually miss them hitting the buckwheat.maybe more cluster or compound type flowers retain nectar longer into a hot day and are hit later?also i think bees do have preferences as to taste,some plants seem to be used only if nothing else is going on(like ironweed).

[Ian]

Once a honey bee starts foraging a floral type, she will continue to forage that floral source until the nectar is completely depleted. And in heavey honey flows the same bee will actually continue visiting the same forage source day after day automatically.
This is why buckwheat can be hard to gather from, if flowering fields neighbour it. Buckwheat secretes nectar late morning and finishes early afternoon. Where as canola and clover secrete nectar first thing in the morning, continuing later in the day. Works to our advantage I guess, clover/canola honey pays more of a premuim.

Ian

[Michael Bush]

From what I've seen Buckwheat goes for more than Clover. I've never seen Canola honey for sale, so I don't know what the price is.

[Ian]

Buckwheat sells for more, only to a small market. When selling to a packing plant, white honey always recieves the premuim over dark honey.

Ian

[dragonfly]

Whitetailman, my husband is a deer hunter and this past fall, he decided to plant some forage for the deer that live on and around our place. I was delighted to find that many of the plants deer love are also plants that bees love.

[hoosierhiver]

this year i've been planting buttonbush,black gum(tupelo) for my bees, chokeberry seems to be appreciated too.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>My planting experiment is underway!
>I planted eleven acres this last weekend. >I decided on five distinct areas of >forrage.
>Three acres of Yellow clover
>Three acres of Huban clover
>Three acres of Alfalfa
>One acre of Canola and
>One acre of Safflower/Sunflower mixed

>The bad news is that I am told that the >clover will not bloom the first year, that >it needs a dormant period first. Well, we >will still have plenty of forrage for this >year.

>You have been a great help, I have >identified many plants on my property that >I had not known to be nectar producers. I >am looking to have a good year.
>Bill

>[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE >BILL (edited March 17, 2003).]


An update on my field of dreams.

The yellow clover has taken off well and is about two foot high and looks just like a good stand of alfalfa, and no, it did not bloom hardly at all.

The Hubam is another story however. It is about three foot now, not thick or leafy, but a thinner stand and thinner plant in general. The good new is that I have a good bloom going on! There is a nice white hue to the field even though we have been in a drought, the field is looking GOOD!

The alfalfa stand is thin and short and I have been told it takes at least two years before it takes off. For now I am cutting the weeds off about one foot high.

One caution about planting safflower. Don't let it get in your pasture! I thought musk thistle was bad, cripes... Next year after the bloom I will have to go dig each plant out.

The canola did well this year as well as the sunflowers (state flower). I am going to reseed the canola again for a better stand.

All in all, I am getting excited for next years crop. I have pretty resigned myself to just growing bees this year as I am expanding my number of hives, and next year I will produce honey.




------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[dragonfly]

Bill- we planted white and yellow sweet clover last Fall and had plenty of flowers this year, so you will probably have pretty good success with that one. It's a little too soon for Fall planting in this area, but come September...
Question for anyone with experience growing buckwheat- when is the time to plant it, Spring or Fall?
Thanks.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

There is a link earlier in this thread that will take you to where you can learn ALL about it.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

>Question for anyone with experience growing buckwheat- when is the time to plant it, Spring or Fall?

Plant it anytime. Frost will kill it, but it survives drought really well. It's a short cycle (don't remember off the top of my head what) and so you can plant it and in a few weeks you have blooms. I like it, not because I can count on the bees using it, but if you stagger the planting of several patches you can disk it under when it goes to seed and you can have blossoms all year. That way, they may ignore it some of the time, but it fills in the gaps in the nectar flow.

[Ross]

anybody got a source for mail order buckwheat seed?

[Michael Bush]

It's usually cheaper at your local feed/seed/farm store because of shipping but here's a link if you only want a small amount.
http://www.wildlifeseeds.com/info/buckwheat.html http://www.outsidepride.com/buckwheat.asp
http://www.gardensalive.com/item_display.asp?ProductNumber=8820&PROG_NBR=4&sid=19162&EID=GA191



[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited August 15, 2003).]

[dragonfly]

Thanks, Michael. So I guess it's an annual rather than perennial? We just recently had our field disked, so I guess I could broadcast some seed and see if it produces anything for Fall. We won't get much for rain for a few weeks, but maybe it would be able to sprout in September and maybe bloom before frost, then reseed for next year.

[Michael Bush]

>So I guess it's an annual rather than perennial?

That's how I treat it. I assume it is. Since the frost kills it.

>We just recently had our field disked, so I guess I could broadcast some seed and see if it produces anything for Fall.

I think it goes to seed in 10 to 12 weeks, and it blooms for quite a while.

>We won't get much for rain for a few weeks, but maybe it would be able to sprout in September and maybe bloom before frost, then reseed for next year.

It might make it to seed this year. You could harvest the seeds if you want and use them next year. I don't have a method for that.

[BEEn Stung]

Interesting subject.
The plant that I have not seen mentioned is the Basswood tree. I am new at this bee thing but when the basswood were in bloom my girls made a super of honey per week, per hive. Of course that is only 2 weeks. The trees in the shade bloom a little later then the ones in the sun.
I have been collecting sweetclover seed, from ditch plants, and am going to plant this fall in an area I burnt the grass off of. It is very persistent in this area and blooms for a long time. Esp[ecially if both yellow and white are present. I just have very little right close to my bees.

------------------
Erwin

[wfarler]

trying late season buckwheat. we had some unusual rain in August (did't everyone) and have more ground moisture going into fall. trying to get a stand of buckwheat early and keep adding strips every couple of weeks. I understand bloom is 12-15 days after emergence. Is this true?

Will be frost seeding hairy vetch this fall. Last year's red clover did well on adding nitrogen but the bees didn't work it at all.

[Michael Bush]

>I understand bloom is 12-15 days after emergence. Is this true?

I don't have the facts in front of me, but that sounds right. They also bloom for quite a while. I think when there are more reliable sources of nectar (that start earlier in the day?) they will ignore it, but they will really work it if there isn't much else.

[Branman]

Just found a great link with a pretty comprehensive list and pictures for different trees. http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/

[db_land]

You can plant buckwheat anytime from last frost up to about 45 days before 1st frost. It begins blooming about 3-4 weeks after planting. It likes warm/hot weather and does well with little rain. Bees love it and it's probably cheaper that feeding sugar syrup. Bees don't work red clover, but they really like crimson clover. Crimson is good to plant in the fall (just before 1st frost). It will be blooming the following April. Btw, crimson makes a great ground cover and green manure. There is an annual white sweet clover (think its also called hubam) that blooms during the summer. Plant in spring after last frost for June/July blooming. I've read (but it may be a myth) that it produces up to 500lbs of honey per acre.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>There is an annual white sweet clover (think its also called hubam) that blooms during the summer. Plant in spring after last frost for June/July blooming. I've read (but it may be a myth) that it produces up to 500lbs of honey per acre.

Contrary to what others told me, it is true that it will bloom the first year if planted in the spring. To my suprise it bloomed late June until mid August. I expect it to be a better stand and a better bloom next year. Still it was four foot tall, thin, but gave the girls a lot to work with.

I hope the myth is true also. I have three acres planted in Huban, three in Yellow, and four in Alfalfa.

Now if I can get through the winter with 20 colonies...



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[dragonfly]

Wfarler- I planted some buckwheat last week and it is coming up pretty well. If it flowers within a couple or three weeks, then it should be flowering very soon, but to be honest, it doesn't look to me like it's anywhere near the flowering stage. With all this rain, though, I'm hoping for a good flowering season before it gets too cool. Where did you buy your seed? I got a 50 pound bag at Marshall Grain in Fort Worth. Couldn't find it here locally.

[mark williams]

I was at a local feed &seed store today & they had some seed they called Giant white clover,
they also said they planted it for hay,
Has anyone ever heard of this or used any for the bee's? thank's>>>>MARK

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I was at a local feed &seed store today & they had some seed they called Giant white clover,
they also said they planted it for hay,
Has anyone ever heard of this or used any for the bee's? thank's>>>>MARK

I have heard of it, haven't tried it. After reading the links posted a page or two back I was sold on the Hubam. In those links I found grafs that showed the potential for honey crops between the various types of clover.

I wanted to keep the flow going as long as possible, that is why I planted the yellow for an earlier flow and the Hubam for a later flow. The Alfalfa for a filler inbetween.

My concern is now I have been told that I need to be careful when to cut the clover for feed hay. That it will cause abortions in livestock if not cut and baled at the right time.

Anyone know of this?



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Michael Bush]

>My concern is now I have been told that I need to be careful when to cut the clover for feed hay. That it will cause abortions in livestock if not cut and baled at the right time. Anyone know of this?

I had not heard that of clover, but of fescue grass because of the endophytes. Basically in the grass it is a fungus that lives in the intersticial spaces that causes abortions. It's also the same fungus that gets on grain (ergot) and causes the same problems. I'm wondering if, in a humid climate, it gets on the clover. My guess is that Kansas is too dry for that on clover.

[dragonfly]

Bill, I wonder if the clover you are referring to is one of the Berseem clovers? There is a variety that is called "Big Bee" that I have read about. Berseem is a good clover for heavy soils in bottomland areas. It's not a great reseeder, so is normally used as an annual, and is a cool weather plant, but doesn't tolerate sustained freezing spells below 22 degrees. Bees reportedly love it, so I'm going to give it a try this year.
The only thing I have heard about cutting for hay, is that grasses (sudan, johnsongrass, etc) shouldn't be cut or fed to livestock right after a freeze or in a heat stress state such as heat with drought. Don't know about clover, though.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Bill, I wonder if the clover you are referring to is one of the Berseem clovers? There is a variety that is called "Big Bee" that I have read about. Berseem is a good clover for heavy soils in bottomland areas. It's not a great reseeder, so is normally used as an annual, and is a cool weather plant, but doesn't tolerate sustained freezing spells below 22 degrees.


Doesn't sound like that would work in Kansas, gets a little chilly here in January...



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Ian]

>>My concern is now I have been told that I need to be careful when to cut the clover for feed hay. That it will cause abortions in livestock if not cut and baled at the right time. Anyone know of this?

Yes, your right , but only when the sweet clover gets rained on and is a bit moldy. It is not worth the bother then. you have to be very carefull feeding at times becasue it will thin your livestocks blood, It must be rationed out with other feed to prevent this from happening...

Ian

[BULLSEYE BILL]

November 4 2003

Huban clover is still blooming! Too bad it's too cold for the bees to take advantage of it http://www.beesource.com/ubb/frown.gif

------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Michael Bush]

Yes, but if you get a warm day...

[BeeCatcher]

i have had huban growing for two years now but would like to add the sweet white clover with the huban, my question is would the white sweet clover have a chance with the huban getting so tall? the huban i planted two seasons ago growes to at least three to four feet tall.my bees sure do work it good.by the way my huban has yellow and white blooms.

[db_land]

BB and BC,
Huban is "white sweet clover", isn't it? Is the huban good at re-seeding itself? THANKS

------------------

[BeeCatcher]

my huban reseeds real good , mine has white and yellow blooms. the white clover that i was talking about is the real short kind. maybe its called dutch white clover.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>BB and BC,
Huban is "white sweet clover", isn't it? Is the huban good at re-seeding itself? THANKS

Mine is all white. It produced a lot of blooms and I presume that it also produced a lot of seed. What I haven't found out yet is a definate answer if it is a perennial, biennial, or an annual.

I found yellow listed as a biennial, and white as a perennial, and one source listed the Huban as an annual, but then I find planting instructions that say to plant it in either fall or spring.

BC, does your huban come back from the roots?

Bill

[BeeCatcher]

my huban has the yellow and white blooms, weather it comes back from the roots or the seed i really can't say, but i am guessing its the seed because i take my brush hog raise it as high as it will go then mow it, that scaders it every where, then i disk it and then pull a harrow over that. i seeded the first year then used the method i just describe and got a good stan this past year. i have now done the same thing again. i planted mine in feb.

[John Seets]

Bill, for what its worth: Since I live in a reasonably poplulated area without much open land around me, I seed where I can. For instance;

At night, I will seed the neighbors' lawns with Dutch White clover seed. Even though the bees aren't crazy about this short clover, It will survive the lawnmower and bloom prodigously.

I have seeded "wild areas" with sweet clover, both white and yellow. After doing a couple hundred pounds of seed over several years, I have found that the seedlings do NOT compete will with previously established growth (weeds, grass, etc.). The clover I mention needs to be seeded in cultivated soil to flourish.

Hairy Vetch: Now this is a seed that is voracious enough to compete with other establish growths. I have cast this seed next to roads, wild areas, parks, abandoned areas and they (vetch) seems to do quite well - even through last year's drought (surprisingly so). The vetch produces a plethora of purple flowers that the bees seem continually eager to work.

For me, low plants and bushes are OK but trees are where the action is. We are Black Locust and Tulip Poplar all the way here. The sound of the zillion bees working the locust during bloom is like nothing else. Standing under one of these trees and listening is amazing. Down side is that the blooms are easily susceptable to late freezes and strong wind. The poplar seems hardier.

I thought I read in an earlier post that the locust wood seems to rot easily. Don't know what wood was being referred to but I don't think it was black locust. This stuff is very weather resistant and lasts a long time in the elements. Why do you think it is known for making fence posts out of. I've even milled lumber out of it and made bee boxes. They've lasted longer than any other type wood boxes that I have bought or built in the past.

Nuff said.

Thanx.

[sugar bandit #2]

Hi,
I'm a new beekeeper with a few questions.
I recently planted about 8 lbs of Ladino clover as well as orchard grasses around a newly constructed pond last Aug. I was wondering if anyone was familiar with Ladino clover (a white variation)as a necter source?
2nd, I have a large oregano cluster in my herb garden that the bees go crazy for. Not sure what variety of oregano but has many tiny white flowers that bloom from spring to fall. Is this a reliable source of necter or pollen?
Finally, I had bought a few buttonbush sapplings at our bee school auction last feb and planted in march. The buttonbush hasn't blommed this year and has grown to about 2'. I was wondering if this actually was a button bush because the leaves look so much like the hibiscus (rose of sharon) we planted in June. Are these related?

[dragonfly]

I tried Ladino clover this past year and had very poor germination, but I think bees work it well from what I have read. The buttonbush leavess do resemble hibiscus, imo. They usually bloom in the third or fourth year. If yours are about two feet tall, I would expect blooms next summer or in two years. I have some of them that grow wild here along the creek, and funny this is, I haven't seen any bees in the flowers. There must be something else blooming at the same time that the bees prefer. Bees do love oregano, but I don't know how good a source that is as far as amounts of nectar brought in. I do like seeing the bees in it, though, because many of the herbs seems to have some miticidal and disease-fighting properties for bees. I plant as many herbs as I can. Another thing my bees really loved this year was the catmint and catnip. Other favorites were lemon basil and sage.

[skruzich]

Hi yall,
I ordered 5 stevia plants today and plan on growing them in a greenhouse (my sons agriculture project this semester) and take cuttings to start my spring plantings. I figure these 5 plants will give me 100 cuttings per plant to start my stevia crop next spring. Heres the info on it that i have. I think that the bees might go for it. What do yall think

Pic of plant

http://rain-tree.com/pics/stevia.jpg


Stevia is a perennial shrub that grows up to 1 m tall and has leaves 2-3 cm long. It belongs to the Aster family, which is indigenous to the northern regions of South America; it is still found growing wild in the highlands of the Amambay and Iguacu districts (a border area between Brazil and Paraguay). It is estimated that as many as 200 species of Stevia are native to South America; however, no other Stevia plants have exhibited the same intensity of sweetness as S. rebaudiana. It is grown commercially in many parts of Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, Central America, Israel, Thailand, and China.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I thought I read in an earlier post that the locust wood seems to rot easily. Don't know what wood was being referred to but I don't think it was black locust.


We have two types of locust on our property, Black, and the other I don't know the name of. This other type has four to nine inch thorns on it's trunk and branches. It is a hard wood but it does rot in only a couple of years when left on the ground. I have cut a lot of it for firewood and any left on the ground will turn pretty quick.

Unfortunatly, the cattle really like to eat the black locust and it only gets to survive in the fenced yard, so we don't have very many of those trees. I also don't get many chances to see it bloom either.

You devil you, night time seeding huh? I like that.

I'll be looking for some hairy vetch seed now.

Bill

[skruzich]

I had a relative years ago that was thrown off a bridge into a thick patch of those locust trees with the thorns. took them 9 hours to cut him out of that patch. Had to bury him closed casket

[clintonbemrose]

those locust trees with the thorns. Sounds like honey locust of which there are 2 types. Those with thorns and the hi-bred that has no thorns. The 2 I have in my yard are loved by the bees when they bloom. The down side is all the 6 to 9 inch long seed pods that drop in the fall.
Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I had a relative years ago that was thrown off a bridge into a thick patch of those locust trees with the thorns. took them 9 hours to cut him out of that patch. Had to bury him closed casket


OUCH! Sorry for him. If you ever get stuck by one of those thorns you will notice that there is a chemical on it that will cause you much discomfort and it will take quite a long time for it to heal.

I would rather get stung by a bee than a thorn.

>The 2 I have in my yard are loved by the bees when they bloom. The down side is all the 6 to 9 inch long seed pods that drop in the fall.


That sounds like them, I haven't seen them bloom yet. I will have to keep an eye on them this spring.

Bill

[aufingers]

I am not sure just how good Russian olive trees are for honey or pollen. In this area they are considered a weed. I do notice in the spring just about the time the dandilion slowes down these trees bloom, they have a very sweet smell and the bees are all over them. We have magpies here and in the winter they eat the russian olives and then spread them all over, hence the weed. If anyone is interest I can send them some seed.

[skruzich]

Hehe, they cut him out of that grove of thorns, wasn't much left of him. Those thorns pierced just about every part of his body.
I don't think he hurt too awful long after that. :O

[hoosierhiver]

there are 2 types of locust(aside from hybrids),black locust is the honey tree and grows the thorns only when they get older,honey locust is not a honey tree and does not have thorns.

[Hillbillynursery]

Ok this is my first post here. I am a nurseryman and was a walking horse owner and breeder. Honey Locust have the longest thorns. Black Locust will not rot for many years but Honey Locust will not last when used as post. Black Locust post if put in the ground green and upright(as cut from tree) will sprout and root many times so your post becomes a bushy tree. About making animals sick, Clovers that are cut while holding seeds can kill horses by dehydration. It does not bother cattle as bad. The horses actually slobber themselves to death. This thought to be because of the bitter nature of the seed. The olives are a great food source but they are a problem. We planted the seeds to raise the liners for sale. As with many types of plants the seedlings do not all reach sellable size so you run a band digger under them and pull the ones that are big enough and leave the rest to the next year. Those that were left were a couple feet tall the next fall. Since they were now to big we decided to leave them for seed. Bad Idea that was as now we have them all over the farm. We try and keep everyone that is not in the row dug out. I wish I could talk my father into getting rid of that row of them. He collect the seeds and sells them to other nurserys. Since my father is unable to tend the farm and I can no longer do it myself we are planning on making everything pasture but the wild pears( chineese sand pears which are the root stock for grafting pears on too), dogwoods, and those olives. olives bring around 50cents a pound in the flesh. They are real easy to collect by laying plastic down and knocking them off with padded sticks.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I am a nurseryman and was a walking horse owner and breeder. Honey Locust have the longest thorns. Black Locust will not rot for many years but Honey Locust will not last when used as post. Black Locust post if put in the ground green and upright(as cut from tree) will sprout and root many times so your post becomes a bushy tree. About making animals sick, Clovers that are cut while holding seeds can kill horses by dehydration. It does not bother cattle as bad. The horses actually slobber themselves to death.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

One question, do bees work the honey locust with the long spikes? We have determined that they do work the black locust (with small thorns), but how about the other?

Bill

[Hillbillynursery]

I am new to bee keeping(first year of having a hive of my own). I forgot to mention that the hybred honey locust is a hybred with a locust I am not familuar with so it may produce something for the bees. As to planting for bees I have thought about tree farming for logs. Lumber prices just keep climbing. I am thinking of planting red maple, tulip popular, and wild cherry as it is getting real hard to find good logs of. Black Gum(tupiloe(sp)) does not make good logs and is slower growing than those I mentioned. I may consider planting black locust now as well. They do sell good for post which would make a quicker turn around than those being raised for logs. I will be planting some popular seeds this year. Popular can make logs in 20 to 25 years(some harvest them at 15 years but you make much more if you grow them larger. I am also looking into growing blueberries. They require some watering in our area but we have a couple of ponds to water out of.

[hoosierhiver]

i know there is a hybrid poplar that will grow about 10 foot a year.

[Hillbillynursery]

The hybred popular are a thing you do not want. Those things send shoots up everywhere from the roots. It is a hybred between silver popular and lumbardy popular. The tulip popular or yellow as it is called when talking logs is a good yielder. Silver and lumbardy are grown from cuttings or those shoots that the silver produces. The hybreds we planted for cuttings got to 30 feet in 4 years. It send out enough shoots the second year that we had no need to take cutting. We cut the trees down about 6 years ago and we are still digging shoots out.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>One question, do bees work the honey locust with the long spikes? We have determined that they do work the black locust (with small thorns), but how about the other?

I took a long look last weekend at our black locust and found that I was mistaken, there are no thorns on it as I thought I had seen before.

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Bill

[ChellesBees]

Black Locust will root if I plant the shoots? That's the one with the sweet smelling white clusters of flowers, right? I tried growing some from seed, but haven't done well so far. If I can root cuttings, that would be great. I suppose spring would the best time to try that?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

As I understand it, you can plant a piece of green wood and it will sprout and grow. I would say that spring would be best for that.

Bill

[Mark Carden]

I didn't read all the posts. Has anyone mentioned the Chinese Tallow Tree? It is a great source of nectur here in Georgia. I had a couple in my yard and have raised ~100 seedlings to plant on some land. It grows quickly, so you could have an estabilished grove in ~3 to 4 years. Be prepared to cut underneath the trees though, if not they will take over.

Best of luck
Mark

[John Seets]

Chellesbees;

I, too, have had absolutely no luck propagating Black Locust seeds. I've tried stratifying, scarifying, and attempted geminating in light and dark, heated soil but no good. I however as you mentioned, have had luck transplanting the small trees that grow from the mother tree. Bee aware that these young trees do not grow from seed but from VERY long underground "rootlings" sent out from the mother tree. These thin to medium rootlings are fairly near the surface (I've found usually less than 4"). These rootlings grow as far away as 100 feet from the mother tree (from my observations). It helps when digging up a small sapling to get as much of the connecting rootling on either side of it as is feasable. This will increase the survival rate of the saplings.

Bill, the Black Locust DOES have thorns (>1")on the new growth wood but not on the old. I guess they evetually fall off.

Thanx.

[Hillbillynursery]

Black locust have the thorns on both sides of the leaf structure. Next time a limb falls out of it look it over. The next year when a limb grows where the leaf was before it pushes the thorn off. Yes you can stick limbs in the soil and keep the soil damp and that fall those that root can be transplanted. Grow them one season where you want them then cut them off about 3 inches above the soil in the spring before they start leaving out. Select one of the shoot that sprout from the stump and train it up straight. We do this because the limb is so crooked and hardened off. We get good staight trees for your yard this way.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Bill, the Black Locust DOES have thorns (>1")on the new growth wood but not on the old. I guess they evetually fall off.

>Black locust have the thorns on both sides of the leaf structure. Next time a limb falls out of it look it over. The next year when a limb grows where the leaf was before it pushes the thorn off.


Thanks for clearing up the mystery guys, I thought they had em'. I'll be transplanting some next spring into a protected area.

Bill

Thanx.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Hillbilly,
Don't you go off and dissapear on us, you are too valuable of a resource for us to loose. Thanks,

Bill

[aufingers]

We have a lot of russian olive in this area. They produce an olive with very little flesh. The magpies eat them during the winter then spread them all over, infact we consider them weeds, nasty thorns but in the spring they have a lot of small fragrant flowers which the bees love. These trees bloom toward the end of the dandylions. I would be happy to collect some seeds if anyone would be interested. I have a few seedlings that I could dig up and send. I don't think you have magpies in the midwest or east coast so you shoulden't have the problem that we have.

Best wishes,
Earl White

[Hillbillynursery]

You guys/gals are valued by me. I have been spending time in the other forums. As to the Russian olives, many different birds eat them. When the Black birds/starlings migrate south they fill ours if we have not picked them clean. Pigeons also eat them later in the year when food gets hard to find. The bees do love them. So with me it is how many thousand do you not want. I dug up over a hundred this spring. They do have thorns but not many. We do not use protect from them when we pick the seeds. If you want some sent your way just ask I just have to warn you how they can take over.

[hoosierhiver]

i'd like to discourage the use of alien species in our environment,as mentioned this stuff can really take over and crowd out native plants.a good native alternative to russian olive is sumac,the bees and birds love it and it's native and really beautiful.

[WineMan]

Is russian olive the same as autumn olive or is the russian a slightly larger tree versus a bush? I think autumn olive was originally brought from russia as a plant to provide forage for critters. It was widely used around here by the department of natural resources. They gave up on it years ago as it is highly invasive and doesnt provide anywhere near the nutrional resources as some other native plants. One positive is that it does make a bunch of honey......honey which is water white but taste like sh**!!!

[Hillbillynursery]

They are one and the same to a point. It is like calling apple trees the same. Autum Olive is a silver leaf cultivar. They are the russian olives we have. About 15 years ago NC highway department was buying them by the millions. They can take alot of abuse and air pollution and thrive. If it was not for them self seeding everywhere they would be great plants.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Years back I bought through the County Extension Service packages of plants that the State of Kansas was selling for windbreaks and wildlife shelters.

There were olives (silver with no thorns), sandplums, cottoneaster, dogwood, and more that I can not remember now. They also sold White and Austrian Pines, pecan, Western Redcedar, and other trees for windbreaks.

You might want to check with your local extension office and see if you have any programs available to you.

Bill

[John Buckner]

Hi Folks,
Can anyone tell me why Black Locust only blooms sometimes?
It has been four years since the ones on my place have bloomed. The year before,the bloom was so heavy that the limbs drooped.

Yellow Popler and Locust are our main sources for honey here in the mountains of NC. We have some Sourwood later.

As for Black Locust,if you get a thorn stuck in your skin,a small tip usually breaks off and if you don't get it out,within 4 hrs. you will see blood poisoning start to set in. This is from personal experiance.

Kindest regards,
Jack

[Michael Bush]

I've always figured that the sap is poisonious on the black locust thorns. Because when I get stuck on an old one I don't have a problem but a stick from a fresh thorn from the tree always swells up badly. It doesn't act like an infection (blood poisoning), but rather like actual poison.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 22, 2003).]

[John Seets]

John B.;

I noticed the same thing, B. Locust not blooming or not blooming with the same intensity year after year. In June of '02, I got an answer to this from a researcher on our Eastern Shore in Maryland. His response and contact info is shown with his answer:

"Black Locust is one of those trees that blooms in abundance every other year, similar to apples.

Michael S. Embrey
Eastern Shore Apiary Program
Dept. of Entomology (WREC)
P.O.Box 169, 124 Wye Narrows Drive
Queenstown Md. 21658
Phone (410)-827-8056, Mobile (410)-924-0028
Fax (410)-827-9039
E-mail: me15@umail.umd.edu"


For us in Maryland, the "off" year was '02 which means that '03 was an "on" year. However, with so much wind and rain last spring, I can't swear to it from my observations.

Hope this helps.

[John Buckner]

John Sheets,


Thanks for the reply. I will look into this.

"Black Locust is one of those trees that blooms in abundance every other year, similar to apples.

JB

[Hillbillynursery]

I was wondering what if anything was planted for bees by the guys/gals of the forum. I have got some ***** willow that I am going to plant behind where my new hives are going. In time they will give noon time shade to the hives. ***** willows are a great source of early pollen to help build those collonies up.
JC

[hoosierhiver]

i agree, i think those sorts of willows are the first significant pollen bloom here.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Hillbilly,
I have a Saphire Dragon tree in my front yard that is going on four years old. It is the most unusual tree I have ever grown.

The first year it grew 12 ft with no branches and leaves that measured up to 36 inches across. The third year it bloomed with the most beautiful purple and yellow flower clusters.

I was doing a search on the tree, it's a paulownia (oops sp?) The article stated that it was a honey producer as well as many other great aspects of the variety. They were trumphing it up a lot.

My question is do you know of any other information relating it to honey producing?

Thanks, Bill

[hoosierhiver]

paulownia(paulonia tomentosa) trees are native to china,i've heard the wood is used for building temples,don't know about nectar value though.

[Hillbillynursery]

They are also called a cucumber tree. The wood is alot like balsa and used to make RC model airplanes. Most of the logs are sold to the netherlands to make those wooden shoes. But it is another large family of trees. I do not know if the ones in the mountains around here is a native or not but they grow wild here.

[hoosierhiver]

i've seen them spread on their own pretty easily.i remember the first time i saw one,i was hiking along in the woods when i came upon this huge fairy tale tree with big purple flowers,it looked too strange to be true.i've found a feral patch near me,if anyone is interested ,we could dig a few up this spring.

[Hillbillynursery]

I found out more about your tree. It is sometimes called cucumber but the real cucumber trees is different. It is from china originally but have taken off in the wild but it does not seam to push native species out. It does have list as a good nector source. I asked the only beekeeper I know near me and all he could tell me is they work it. He said there is not enough of them to get a crop of honey from them alone.
I have know about this other plant for a long time and have seen the bees covering the plant when in bloom. It is a Frag Honeysuckle. The bloom is short and not trumpet shape. It smells so sweet that when hauling them in a van when in bloom that they will actually make you sick in time. I have a large one that I am taking cuttings off of this plant this spring. If any one is interested I could send some cuttings in bubble wrapped envolope.

JC

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have a load of seed from this tree. I have already taken a few bunches out to the farm and set them free. I have to admit I don't know if they will grow or not, but the volentirs sprouting off of the roots around the base of the tree really take off.

[Hillbillynursery]

I do not know about scattering them around in the grass and such. I planted in a garden row and cover with sand they will almost everyone come up. They are very easy to raise and if in a garden can get over 6 feet in one year with a little fert.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subimages.cfm?sub=2426

Here are many pictures of the Paulownia tree, it is commonly called a Princess tree.
http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/

Keep this link handy for looking up all tres.

[Jack Grimshaw]

Great link,I saved that one.

Just check out WEEDS,....PRINCESS TREE.

INVASIVE/EXOTIC TO NORTH AMERICA

Jack

[briancady413]

Once I went to the Arnold Arboretum in late spring.
There was a cluster of honey locusts (Gleditsia species) flowering. One from Texas had much more flowers, and was abuss with bees.
Does anyone know if this was other than a fluke nectar run for one tree? Could there be a variety of honey locust which produces much more nectar?

Also, there are two Black Locust relatives, native to NA, that might be good and easy bee plants. Neither gets as tall as Black Locust - they both grow 3-4 meters/ 12-15 feet tall.
Bristly Locust has twigs and pods covered with a layer of 1-1.5 centimeter/ 1/2-5/8 inch long, .3 millimeter/1/32" thick bristles so dense that, even though sharp-ended, grabbing them can't hurt you. It flowers with Black Locust, the pink flowers being slightly larger.
The plant spreads by suckers like Black Locust, but is not long-lived, lasting about 15 years.
------------------------------
ALERT!: HEADING OFF-THREAD! BEES FORGOTTEN BELOW! (except once)
I expect that it fixes and releases about 50 lbs/ac (~50 kgs/ha) of nitrogen per year, as Black Locust does. I think it would make a great 'nurse crop'. Nurse crops shade lower trunks to prevent lower branches of timber trees from growing much. This leaves the lumber from the lowest part with less knots, increasing quality and value. A nurse crop should be shorter-lived than the main timber crop, to block other early competitors, yet stop competing itself later, which Bristly Locust does by having a short lifetime. A nurse crop that also provides nitrogen has extra value.
If one chooses a timber crop that also has valuable nuts, like some varieties of Black and other Walnuts, one can also get valuable nut crops as well as timber and honey. I've read that Italian chestnut orchards provide much pollen for bees, while the symbiotic bolete mushroom crop harvested beneath them can equal the chestnut crop in value.

Brian Cady

[John Seets]

On 11/7/03, I posted about seeding various areas with sweet clover seed, vetch and dutch white.

Just today, 1/25, I received e-mail regarding this post indicating that I should amend my ways. See below for that e-mail. Question is: Should I stop seeding based on the author of this e-mail's assertions? Comments please. Note: my original post words that was part of this referred to e-mail is in brackets [].

******************************************
Subject: planting for bees damages the environment

Text:

Mr. Seets,

I was alarmed to read your post to the bee forum re your illegal planting of hairy vetch and other non-native seeds in your neighbors' yards and especially in "wild areas", parks, etc.

[At night, I will seed the neighbors' lawns with Dutch White clover seed. Even though the bees aren't crazy about this short clover, It will survive the lawnmower and bloom prodigously.

I have seeded "wild areas" with sweet clover, both white and yellow. After doing a couple hundred pounds of seed over several years, I have found that the seedlings do NOT compete will with previously established growth (weeds, grass, etc.). The clover I mention needs to be seeded in cultivated soil to flourish.

Hairy Vetch: Now this is a seed that is voracious enough to compete with other establish growths. I have cast this seed next to roads, wild areas, parks, abandoned areas and they (vetch) seems to do quite well - even through last year's drought (surprisingly so). The vetch produces a plethora of purple flowers that the bees seem continually eager to work.]

These plants compete and succeed against native wildflowers and other plants and can irreparably damage the entire ecosystem. When you change the availability of plant material as a food source, shelter, etc, you potentially endanger all kinds of organisms, from plants to insects to mammals. Millions of your tax dollars are spent every year in an attempt to prevent the invasion of these very plants into parks and other natural areas. Don't sabotage these efforts.

Please restrict your planting for bees to your own property or other private property where you have the owner's permission.

Sincerely,
Another beekeeper

[Michael Bush]

>These plants compete and succeed against native wildflowers and other plants and can irreparably damage the entire ecosystem.

I don't know anywhere that doesn't already have white clover. I don't know anything about hairy vetch.

>When you change the availability of plant material as a food source, shelter, etc, you potentially endanger all kinds of organisms, from plants to insects to mammals.

If you buy wildlife mixes they almost always contain some clover, some birdsfoot trefoil, some alfalfa and some kind of grass. Most mammals that eat plants need the protien from clover.

>Millions of your tax dollars are spent every year in an attempt to prevent the invasion of these very plants into parks and other natural areas. Don't sabotage these efforts.

I don't know about "these very plants". I'm not aware of any efforts against them. Again, the one I know the least about is the hairy vetch. It is true that some states have made efforts to restore native plants to the sides of roads, but I notice that here in Nebraska the most popular things the highway department plants are NOT native.

>Please restrict your planting for bees to your own property or other private property where you have the owner's permission.

Probably true that some people would be offended by you planting clover in their yards. You can plant it in mine anytime.

Maybe it's good advice. I would be curious to know about any actual laws against planting any particular species of plant that you've listed. Or perhaps the "ilegal" reference is simply assuming it because you don't have permission, which is probably true.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

When I read your origional post I thought your ingenuity was clever, got a big grin. It also gave me an idea about my next door neighbor, my *** hole brother in law, who needs to be irritaded. Your idea sure is nicer than writing obsenities in his lawn with fertalizer. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I will not address any of the authors points, but I will address their convictions, or lack of them. If one will not stand in the light for what they believe, then you should not instill any credence into it either.

If I think you are worm dust, I will tell you and sign my name to it. Hiding behind an ananomus signature is just chicken ****.

Sorry, my spelling sucks tonight.

[Hillbillynursery]

Clovers are so easily pushed aside by native plants that I know they would not be a problem. Vetch is harder to get rid of once it is going strong. But the state of TN uses it on steep banks until the grass takes to it. It does in enough time crowd out the vetch. vetch will grow in lower light levels than grass or clover. There is a hay field that I use to cut that was originally sown in vetch. The whole field is now fescue which is a non native to our area. But around the fence rows where it did not get cut by the mowers before the seed were ripe and where the shade holds of the grass it is growing well. I would watch where I sowed the vetch but the clover would be planted on every bare spot I found near my hives.
About our tax dollars, when in college I helped plant a few wild flower plots on the side of the interstate. The state even put up signs do not mow and do not pick flowers in this area. The TDOT(TN department of Transportation) was caught mowing the area and sowing grass seeds to over take the endangered wild flowers we planted.

[John Seets]

Also, it is generally know that the clovers and vetches are known as "green manures".

From the University of Minn, Dept of Horticulture written by Jill MacKenzie in speaking about green manures:

(http://www.extension.umn.edu/projects/yardandgarden/ygbriefs/H234greenman.html)

"Many plants in the legume family, such as peas, beans, vetch and clover, grow in cooperation with soil-dwelling bacteria. These bacteria live in nodules on the roots of legumes. They take nitrogen gas from the air and convert it to a form plants can use. This process is often referred to as "nitrogen fixation" or "fixing nitrogen." When the legume dies and its roots begin to decompose, residual nitrogen becomes available to other plants."

It has been pointed out in other sources, especially here in the Maryland area with reference to the Chesapeake Bay and the consequences of fertilizer run off into the bay killing the fish, crabs, etc., that using clover on lawns can provide up to 30% of the lawns nitrogen needs and reduce the need for the fertilizing activities that so many homeowners engage in each year. This act alone would have a trmendous impact on reducing the bay and other watershed pollution.

Thanx.

Oh yes, and as Led Zepplin put it..

"I don't care what the neighbors say."

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Hillbilly:
I've been looking for information on the frag honeysuckle and can not find frag anywhere. Could it be the tatarian honeysuckle? Or maybe the twinberry?

[wfarler]

> millions of your tax dollars are spent every year on eradication

I have seen legions of young Conservation Corps carefully weeding the yards of our neighbors of ill seeded vetch and clover placed by beekeeping miscreantes on secretive midnight planting parties. I feel so sorry for them having to pull hairy vetch on their knees, the hairs of the vetch impaling their hands, the hairy vetch mites migrating to the hair on the back of their knuckles, the sun beating down on their shaved heads while the wicked beekeepers laugh from the shade of their veils.

yeah right.

[John Seets]

wfarler,

good one. made me laugh!

[Hillbillynursery]

Bullseye it is Lonicera fragrantissima. I knew it was a long one but everyone in the business calls it frag.

This link gives a good description and has a link to good photos: http://www.nobleplants.com/classnotes/spring/springprofiles/flowering/lonicerafragrant.htm

[This message has been edited by Hillbillynursery (edited January 27, 2004).]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>FLOWERS: Creamy white, tinged pink or red, 2-lipped, lemon-scented and extremely fragrant, relatively small, 1/2" long, March–early April (Urbana, IL) for a 3 to 4 week period; opens in January, peaks in February, still flowering in mid-March (Athens), borne in axillary peduncled pairs before the leaves; not very showy but certainly among the most fragrant of woody flowering shrubs, the sweet lemon fragrance is about the first of all woody shrubs, tremendous plant for pulling one out of the winter doldrums.


Sounds great, but, when do you suppose it would bloom in zone six? Seems by the above discription that it would bloom even before the dandilions.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>certainly among the most fragrant of woody flowering shrubs, the sweet lemon fragrance ...


No wonder bees are all over it.

[Hillbillynursery]

It depends. In the first time given from the site it says: March–early April (Urbana, IL) for a 3 to 4 week period. It is a long blooming plant but starts early. That is why the second time given for flowering is Jan.- March. If you get a quick turn from winter to spring that is when they will start and dandelion beats them to the bloom. Here where the temps really go up and down if we get a warm week in Feb. it will start blooming and beat the main dandelion bloom. It blooms just before forsythia and is still blooming when they go out. They start on the tips and bloom all the way down the stem til the old growth. It has put out a few bloom all winter long in a real mild winter.

[dragonfly]

Sorry, but I've never heard of or read about hairy vetch being an invasive species, and I've been gardening, reading about gardening, and researching gardening for many years. Most of the invasive species that folks get in an uproar about are species that were brought here from abroad, then started taking over the habitat in which they were placed. I plant vetch yearly, and have never had a problem with it being invasive either in the yard or in the gardens. It does not compete with any grasses I have planted it in. It's an annual, so it only returns from seed in subsequent years. It has no thorns or stickers, and has a fairly short lifespan. Now, if you planted kudzu, I could see someone else complaining.
BTW, beekeepers have been playing Johnny Cloverseed for many years according to what I have read.

[John Seets]

I have found that the vetch, will grow among already established grasses and weeds when free-casted. The degree of germination is enhanced if the recommended innoculant is used at the time of seeding. The first year the plants do not yield a plethora of purple flowers. This occurs during the 2nd year. I did not examine finallhy of the first year growth to veify the extent of the seed production. Assuming that succeeding years require reseed, then I think that it is safe to say that there must be a reasonable number of blooms that occur the first year to account for the following year's lush growths. This would be necessary for the suceeding year(s) natural reseeding.

Thanx.

[Hillbillynursery]

Vetch will grow over grass and thru some fairly thick weeds, But if it is being mowed(hay field, pasture) the grass resprouts were alot of the vetch dies. Most animals will not forage that close to the ground to kill it but they will eat it down lower than the grass around them and shade the vetch out. Vetch is a great hay.

[Hillbillynursery]

I have several extra cuttings of the Frag honeysuckle left after packaging some for members here. Anyone want some?

[Caddy]

What about Vitex? Does anyone have any knowledge of using this as a honey plant? I got some seeds off e-bay and want to try some this spring. The seeds are very hard. Maybe I should soak them before planting.

[db_land]

Hey Hillbilly,
I sent you a email asking for some of the Frag honey suckle cuttings. I think it was to your hotmail email address. Did you get it?

[Hillbillynursery]

I think I sent both of you a reply. I sent someone the email addy for the vitex seeds info. Anyone else want in try and let me know by 8 in the morning.

[dragonfly]

Will the frag honeysuckle survive Texas summers? Does is require regular watering, or can it be planted on a fencerow where no irrigation is available?

[Hillbillynursery]

It takes our hot summers and has lived thru several very dry years when we lost some dogwoods to drought. I am sending out cuttings so they will need some help getting going. I know they do good in wetter parts of TX(like the coastal areas). Here it keeps a few leaves year round. We have a long winter but mild. We rarely ever see temps below 10F. Has not got that low this year and spring is here(well maples and Frag are blooming). Our lowest temp this year was 12F in mid Jan. The week before it was 65F and I opened my hives. The heat I know it can take I just do not know how dry you are.

[dragonfly]

We usually get about 25 to 30 inches of rain per year, mosly in May and September. The Winters tend to be mild but occasionally wet. The summers are hot and dry from July until September.

[Martha]

My bee group last meeting was on honey plants here in the midwest. The man who gave the presentation is from Tonginoxie.

Phacelia tanacetifolia = Bienen-freund
Translates into Bee's Friend It is grown in German gardens to attract the bees in order to pollinate their veggies. You can it get from www.seedsavers.org (http://www.seedsavers.org)

The other plants he suggested:
Clovers - White Dutch, Ladino, Aslike - keep these mowed to about 3-5 inches to have continued bloom through the summer.
yellow and white sweet clover need to be grown where they can be allowed to reach maturity and go to seed before mowing. They bloom June - mid/end July.

Hairy Vetch - not crown vetch! This grows well in pastures.

Buckwheat - you can plant this as late as 4 weeks before first frost and still get a good honey flow. He said to leave this for the bees winter stores.

Trees/shrubs:
Pink Bush Honeysuckle (lonicera tartarica) grows 4-6', blooms mid may - June. It also makes red berries that the song birds love. Common vining honeysuckle (lonicera japonica) is not a good honey producer.

Black Locust - blooms mid May. They can become invasive if not controlled. Plant where you can mow around them or can be left alone.

Globe Locust is a good variety - Robinia psuedoacacia

Red Maple - Acer rubrum blooms mid feb. Not prone to wind/ice damage as soft/silver maple.

Amur maple - Acer ginnala - this is a shrub which grows up to 20'. Good for a screen planting.

Basswood/Little Leaf Linden - Tilia cordata. Blooms late June to July. Also silver leaf linden - tilia tomentosa

Sourwood - Oxydendrum arboreum He says it will grow in Kc metro. Young trees need to be watched during the heat of summer and watered.

Tulip Tree - Liriodendron tulipifera Yellow poplar. He says it does very well in our area and has few pests.

Persimmon - Diosperous virginiana blooms June-July. This can also become invasive if not controlled and deer love it. One lady said the deer eat the whole thing!

Holly bushes - Ilex burfordi, Ilex rotundifolia, Ilex cornuta. Bloom mid may - Between dandelions and clovers.

Black Gum-Sourgum-Black Tupelo -Nyssa sylvatica blooms april - june. They are grown in the orzarks and most around here were used for lumber. He said this honey will not granulate.

He gave these sources:
Melingers 1-800-321-7444
Farmer's seed and nursery www.FarmersSeed.com (http://www.FarmersSeed.com)
Arbor Day Foundation www.arborday.org (http://www.arborday.org)
Jung Quality Seeds 1-800-247-5864

This meeting was very interesting.
Hope this helps, it sure did me.
Martha in KC

[sagittarius]

Been lurking here for a while, contemplating getting into bee keeping. My story is ... I bought 7 acres in SE Wisconsin last summer. 5 acres is a depleted hayfield to which I would like to plant corn, soybeans, clovers, buckwheat/winter rye to attract deer and turkeys. I also have 4 apple trees ordered for this spring. Bought an old tractor last summer, and have a plow, disk, and cultipacker available for this springs plantings. Last year I planted a one acre foodplot of Dutch white, Ladino, and Alsike clover in Northern Wisconsin for deer which has done very well.

Anyway, it just seemed natural with the space and plantings to take up beekeeping too. First I would like to work with a local hobbiest to learn a bit before getting my own hive(s).

Back to the clovers... Clovers can compete against grasses if the soil conditions favor the clover. If the soil PH is below 6 and Nitrogen fertilizer is used, grasses will push out clovers, especially if unmowed. Legumes like clovers, alfalfa, trefoils, will "afix" nitrogen into the soil but will first use up most of the available Nitrogen. Also in order to afix nitrogen on the root noduals, there must be the correct rizobium(sp) bacteria in the soil. This is sometimes applied as a "inoculant" with the seed. Red clover, white clovers, birdsfoot trefoil, soybeans, each use a different bacteria inoculant.

Prep the soil and maintain a clover plot use zero nitrogen, a moderate amount of phosphorus, and alot of Potassium, N-P-K. Nitrogen leaches into the soil with water, but Phosphorus and Potassium really should be worked into the soil. Let a soil test be your guide. My soil test done at the state university recommended zero nitrogen, 30 lbs of phosphorus, and 120 lbs of Potassium per acre. Also some lime (powdered limestone) may be required to get the soil PH above 6 for clovers to do well.

With so many deer hunters planting clover foodplots it seems natural to link up with bee keepers.

------------------
SE Wisconsin

[This message has been edited by sagittarius (edited February 25, 2004).]

[Michael Bush]

And I thought beekeepers and deer hunters were the same group....

[sagittarius]

hehehehehe, It's a nice thought.

[This message has been edited by sagittarius (edited February 25, 2004).]

[Michael Bush]

My observation would be that I haven't met many male beekeepers who aren't hunters. I suppose it's partly that we tend to be participants in the great scheme of life or we wouldn't have bees and we wouldn't hunt.

[sagittarius]

Michael, my sentiments exactly. It seems totally natural.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

HB,
Got my frag in the mail today! It looks great, it's going in the ground tomorrow morning. Thanks much!

[Oxankle]

Question for Hillbilly Nurseryman:

I saw your reference to rootstocks. Please advise.

Some years ago I ordered fruit trees, among them a common Bartlet pear. When the trees came they were about the size of matchsticks, maybe a foot tall. The pear was a stick grafted on a piece of root--it was plain to see, still a piece of string around the root.

I planted and tended. Only the pear survives. HOWEVER, the fruit it bears is tiny, larger than a BB but smaller than buckshot. Mostly a pit, a tiny skin of grainy flesh around the seeds. Twenty feet tall now, solid white with blooms in the spring, THORNY AS ALL GET OUT. Dangerous to mow around.

Have you any idea what this might be? It is not long for this earth unless you tell me that it has some useful characteristic.

That was my first experience ordering fruit trees from ads in magazines! I ordered $30 worth of trees and when they came they would all fit in a baseball cap.
Ox

[Hillbillynursery]

Sorry for your bad luck order trees from those mail order companies. Simple grafted fruit trees like you purchased grown a year get to about 3 feet and around $4 each(remember I only bought by the hundred for resale). Root stock is very important. You can not plant every apple seed you get from your apples you eat and make a strong tree. Apple trees are grafted onto a type of crabapple. All pears are grafted onto those thorny trees like you ended up with. If you cut it down you will need to drill holes in the stump and salt it heavy to kill it or it will keep sprouting. This is a sign of a good strong root stock. Fruit pear have very weak root systems and these thorny things the tears your flesh everytime you walk by almost can not be killed. We have about 3000 of these about 15 feet tall for seed collection(been topped to make picking easier). But our trees were budded with a less thorny(nearly thornless) variety so they are easy to pick and deal with. The seedlings that are raised from these are normally very thorny even though we do not have any of the thorny ones around for them to be pollenated by.

Glad to hear that 2 of the packages have arrived in good shape. I hope the other 2 do as well.

[This message has been edited by Hillbillynursery (edited February 27, 2004).]

[beekeeper39]

Could I just spread some clover in my lawn using the same thing to sow grass seed? Im young and can always use excercise, and being that I wouldn't be doing it in too many places, I could get it done in a day or two.

BTW, what is the going price for Huban clover? How tall does it get, how long before blooms?

[ikeepbees]

And where do you get the huban clover? I did a search on the internet and didn't come up with much.

[aufingers]

Hey, Hillbilly, I have been looking all over for some bush honeysuckle. Just let me know how much you will need for costs and postage. I would be happy to buy whatever you can spare. The farmers in this area cut their alalfa before it blooms, have taken out their fences so there is not a lot of extra blooms around. I have plowed up about four acres of my pasture and planted to sweet clover, it should bloom this year..

Michael Bush, If you want some dandelion seed I will go over my pasture with a butterfly net on my four wheeler when it has gone to seed and send you some, Just let me know

Thanks, Earl White ewhitepmt.org

[beekeeper39]

Is that really how you can gather dandelion seed? That sound easy enough! Could you plant it later in season so it would bloom again?

[aufingers]

Beekeeper39, After I posted last night I thought of an even better way to collect the dandelion seed. I have a young farmer friend, when he cuts his first crop of alfalfa hay the dandilion has already gone to seed and he has to stop frequently to remove the seed from the screen to the radiator on the tractor. I will ask him to save some for me, if he only remembers. Maybe I will have to entice him with a little honey. if you would like some let me know.
Have a great week,

Earl White

[beekeeper39]

sure, I'd be interested! Should I E-Mail you with my address, or how should we go about this?

[aufingers]

Beekeeper39 Jure just send me your email with your address and when the dandelion goes to seed I would be happy to send you some seed. They havn't started to bloom yet so it will be a while yet. My wife will think I have lost it when she sees me gathering the seed. I will try to devise a way to get the fluff off the seeds, if anyone has an idea let me know.
Take care, Earl White
ewhite@pmt.org

[aufingers]

beekeeper39. I didn,t answere your question. I am not sure how long it will take for the seed to make flowers, but as aggressive as the plant is I should think they would bloom if you can get them in the ground soon enough, if not then surley the next spring.
again take care, Earl White

[beekeeper39]

Okay, I e-mailed you. Do you know if it would bloom again if planted later?

[Michael Bush]

>Michael Bush, If you want some dandelion seed I will go over my pasture with a butterfly net on my four wheeler when it has gone to seed and send you some, Just let me know

Dadelions are always nice. But I hate to see you work so hard. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif You can send me some anytime.

[Wolfeman]

I need some info on the major types of clover/alfalfa/vetch out there, I know what white duch looks like it growes naturally around my pad but I don't have any info on any other clover, I'm mainly looking for; what bees like, how tall the plant gets, and whats it look like- decent or scragally.

The soil is very sandy, currently very acid(good ol' acid rain, plans on limeing soon), well drained.
Climate, winters very mild, summers somewhat mild, zone 7-8, strongly maritime, 47.5 degrees north, Dec-Jan nights average 35F but low 20s, mid teens rarely, will swing in for a one week stay from nov-feb.

I've just helped a friend plant a mixed 35 tree orchard, and he and his girlfriend said that clover is what they want as groundcover for looks, bees, and I'm assuming some nitro. I've been put in charge of selection and planting somehow.

Wolfeman

[Wolfeman]

One more thing. How do bees like poppies? it seems poppies grow and flower quite well in many areas. If they do what kind of honey does it produce and will it cause one to fail a drug test the way a poppyseed muffin can?

-Wolfeman

[Hillbillynursery]

The honey suckle have leafed out so It will be next fall before I can make more cutting and send them.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Well that explains it. I stopped by the county extension office and talked to the master gardener and he told me of a huge frag bush at the city arboritum. I went by and made an illegal clipping of a twig or two and put them (in full bloom) in water. Even tried root stimulator, no go, just dried up and died. Oh well, live and learn.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

By the way HB, the ones you sent me are doing fine, little green leaves poping out and growing.

[nickoli]

i have read this thread a couple of times, but i am still not sure, is Ladino clover a good clover to plant for bees? there seemed to be differing opinions on this.
Thanks
Nickoli

[BULLSEYE BILL]

It would not be any of my first five choices. Here is some more information for you about clovers in general.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLOVERS, GENERAL
Family Leguminosae
Numerous species of plants in different genera of the family Leguminosae are called clover. They have certain characteristics in common. The leaf is normally composed of three leaflets. The papilionaceous (butterfly-like) or pealike floret of the flower head consists of a large dorsal standard petal, two lateral wing petals, and two lower keel petals. It usually has 10 stamens, one of which is free and the other nine united, that form a tube enclosing the long ovary. The flower trips exposing the stigma, which returns to its original position after pressure on the petals is removed. The plants have the ability to take nitrogen from the air and, by Rhizobium fixation, store it within nodules on the roots. This contributes to the value of the plant to the soil. The plants provide excellent forage for livestock, and they help in erosion control. Many of the species are good sources of honey and pollen for bees.

The United States Government considers legume crops so important that in 1946, when seed stocks were in short supply, Congress appropriated funds to encourage the harvesting of seeds of these crops (Johnson and Loomer 1948).

The hay crop from clover and clover mixtures in 1969 was harvested from slightly more than 13 million acres.

There are about 250 species of Trifolium, the True Clovers, but only four make up the bulk of the acreage. They are alsike clover (T. hybridum L.), crimson clover (T. incarnatum L.), red clover (T. pratense L.), and white clover (T. repens L.).

There are about 20 species of Melilotus, the sweetclovers, but only three species make up the bulk of the acreage. They are biennial yellow sweetclover (M. officinalis (L.) Lam.), biennial white sweetclover (M. alba Desr.), the annual white subspecies (M. a. var. annua Coe), and yellow annual sourclover or sour sweetclover (M. indica (L.) All.).

There are about 65 species of Medicago, some species of which are referred to as clover, for example, the burclovers, two species of which are important. They are toothed burclover (M. hispida Gaertn.) and spotted burclover (M. arabica Huds.). Alfalfa (M. sativa L.) is the most important species.

There are 16 species of Alysicarpus, or Alyce clover, which is not a True Clover, but none are of great economic importance.

There are about 70 species of Lespedeza or bush clover, several of which are of economic importance.

Weaver and Weihing (1960) concluded, with limited cage tests, that pollinating insects were essential for adequate seed production of the experimental species Trifolium isthmocarpum Brot., T. michelianum Savi, T. pallidum Waldst. & Kit., and T. xerocephalum Fenzl.

A memorandum to USDA cooperators, from R. C. Leffel (USDA, Clover Investigations, 1971), listed the following cultivars of clover available for agronomic evaluation: Cluster clover (T. glomeratum L.), Kura clover (T. ambiguum Bieb.), Lappa clover (T. Iappaceum L.), Large Hop clover (T. campestre Schreb.), Small Hop clover (T. dubium Sibth.), and Striate clover (T. striatum L.). Leffel mentioned that other species may also be present in agronomists' test plots, but none are currently grown commercially. Their pollination requirements are unknown but should definitely be evaluated by the agronomists along with their other characteristics, if release of the species for commercial production appears likely.

The important species of these different genera that are known to be dependent upon or benefited by insect pollination are discussed as separate crops herein.

LITERATURE CITED:

JOHNSON, N. W., and LOOMER,C.W.
1948. THE HELP THE GOVERNMENT OFFERS. U.S. Dept. Agr. Yearbook 1948: 34-44.

WEAVER, N., and WEIHING,R.M.
1960. POLLINATION OF SEVERAL CLOVERS BY HONEYBEES. Agron. jour. 52: 183-185.

[aufingers]

Hillbillynursery
We will be trimming our hybrid willows in a couple of weeks. If you would like some starts just send me an email to ewhite@pmt.org. We will be cutting them into sticks of about a foot, just keep about half the length of the cutting in water, when they root you can plant them. They might make a good wind protection for your bees. Mine are blooming and the bees are all over the katkins. The apricots are blooming but the willow gets more attention. We really like them they make a real nice shade tree. Just don,t plant them over a sewer line, they are willows and will go right to the water.
Have a great week,
Earl White

[aufingers]

Bullseyebill

Where did you get your hubam seed? I have looked all over and have a hard time finding it. I went on the internet and found some for $4.50 a pound which would be costly to plant two acres. If you can give me a source I would appreciate it. Thank you

Earl White ewhite@pmt.org

[NHbees]

I have been thinking about planting bush Honey suckle, particulary after reading the last ABJ. Is there any place that you can buy small plants in the spring, or is it better to find the wild type and root from there?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Where did you get your hubam seed?

Farmers Co-op. It isn't cheap unless you consider the extended blooming time, and the fact that it produces more nectar than any other clover, then it really is worth every penny.

I think I paid about $3.00 lb. when I bought a full 50 lb. bag. I sowed it at 12 lbs. per acre. You really should sow it a bit heavier, but it produces quite a bit of seed and will thicken up as the field gets older. I think that I had a total of five months blooming time split between spring and fall, it bloomed twice.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I have been thinking about planting bush Honey suckle, particulary after reading the last ABJ. Is there any place that you can buy small plants in the spring,


I have been waiting for pink bush honeysuckle. Lowe's has been telling me that they will be getting a shipment in any time now.

[aufingers]

Bullseye Bill, If you could send me the phone number of the co op I will call them and get fifty pounds on the way. I found some in the internet at $4.50 a pound plus the shipping. I plowed up two acres of my pasture last fall, now it is about time to work the ground in preperation for planting. I planted fiddlehead and sweet clover on a three acre piece last year so the clover should bloom this year. I didn,t see very many fiddle head comeing up, the horses must have eaten the seed heads last fall.
I plan to attend a one week school in Emporia this august. I fly in to your home town and then rent a car to Emporia.
Have a great week end
Earl White

[beekeeper39]

Yeah, could you also send the number my way?

[Oxankle]

Did I miss any postings on Hairy Vetch? The taste of Vetch honey is my own personal favorite, the taste I remember from childhood.

It happens that I saw a few blooms along the ditches here last year. This year I have cattle fenced out of about a ten acre paddock. Riding it this morning I found vetch everywhere, just beginning to run. I am going to mow it high to make it bush out and then watch to see what happens. The paddock is full of clover, too. Had intended to spray, but I may put that off until the vetch and clover set seed.
Ox

[Oxankle]

Just searched and found a discussion of Hubam clover. The only field of Hubam I ever saw was on good black land and stood waist high.

Can anyone tell me if it can be broadcast overseeded into ditches and roadsides the way that white and yellow sweetclover can be seeded? Around here the ditches never get mowed, so any Hubam that grew could bloom and seed all summer.

Another question: How is clover seed spread in the wild? Vetch has a hard seed and can be spread by cattle as well as birds. I know nothing of the clover's habits.
Ox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Bullseye Bill, If you could send me the phone number of the co op I will call them and get fifty pounds on the way.

You don't want to, or need to, pay the shipping on a fifty pound bag of seed. Around here, and I am sure there too, there are Farmers Co-op in every little hayseed town. Pick up the telephone book and look in the white business pages for Farmere Co-op.

Well, ok, here is a list of phone numbers for feed and seed stores in your area code.
http://www.gy.com/biz/444220/208.htm

It's a fair size list. I would call the one's close by that sound like a farm feed and seed supply first. If they don't have it, they will probably order it for you.

What kind of class are you taking? you should call when you are here.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Yeah, could you also send the number my way?

Ok, What town? Go to this web site and find one near your town. Hope this helps.

http://www.anywho.com/cgi-bin/websearch?cmd=qry&qry=farmers+co-op+Mn.&x=19&y=5

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Can anyone tell me if it can be broadcast overseeded into ditches and roadsides the way that white and yellow sweetclover can be seeded?

Yes.

>Around here the ditches never get mowed, so any Hubam that grew could bloom and seed all summer.

I did the ditches all around the farm just after we burned. Planting for next year... yellow and white is cheaper, so I broadcast a bunch all around the place. Huban is more expensive so I take greater care in sowing it.


>Another question: How is clover seed spread in the wild?

All the usual ways, birds, wind, washed by rain, troded under hooves, etc. Remember, it does not have to be sowed deep, basically just in contact with the soil. It also helps to either reduce the competition or plant where there is none.
http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/book/index.html

http://www.beeculture.com/beeculture/book/chap3/vetch.html

[beekeeper39]

I talked to my co-op, but they did not know anything about huban clover. I ordered 4 puonds each of ladino and yellow sweet clover.

[Oxankle]

I can get Hubam or any of the clovers around here--there is a specialty seed house in Tulsa with a branch in Muskgogee.

One of the articles Bullseye provided above states that Hungarian Vetch provides "more nectar and for a longer time" than any other cultivated plant.

Another article reported that vetch produces nector in the flower, at the base of the flower and on the leaf stipules. This would explain a previous post here where one of our members reported seeing bees working the plant itself rather than the flower.

Who knows anything about Hungarian Vetch? Seems to me that a planting of Hubam with Hungarian vetch climbing all over it would just about produce a bee climax.

Ox

[aufingers]

Hey, Bullseye Bill
I have already checked all the local seed sources, They just don't use it around here anymore. I have resigned myself to the fact that I will have a big freight bill. I was told by the seed sources here that they use hubam clover in the South but havn't used here in Southern Idaho for many years. So I will be happy to pay the freight just to get it. Like I said I found some back in the central states but it was $4.50 a pound plus the freight.
I will be attending an advanced stone setting course in Emporia in August if all goes well, I am a Jeweler and try to catch a good course when I can. I would be pleased to drop by while I am in town.
Have a great week

Earl White

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I will check a local source for you and see what ups will charge for shipping. E-mail me your address and most important zip code so I can check rates. I will e-mail you info in a couple of days after getting your zip.

[aufingers]

Bullseye Bill

Hope you had a pleasane weekend. My email is ewhite@pmt.org, the zip is 83336. Thanks for the response.

Earl White

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Earl,
I am sending this in e-mail form also, but for anyone else who needs hubam clover at reasonable pricing contact;

Valley Feed and Seed
1-800-658-1775
Ask for Terry, he knows Bullseye Bill "from over there at the gun thing"

They will take plastic.

They can get it in to them in three days. Cost on a fifty lb bag is $137.20, and they will ship UPS to any destination. The shipping charge is actual freight plus $1.90 for repackageing.

Earl, your freight is $24.93, IF they tax you, your total is $170.77.

Sorry for the delay, personal crap getting in the way...

Hopes this helps.

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited April 21, 2004).]

[Alvaro Ferrés]

Hullo, everybothy! Excuse me my errors, I know only a bit of English. I live in Montevideo, Uruguay, a small country between Brasil and Argentina. Here there is something like "gold feber" with the honey, because of its good price. But it will not be any longer.
The most important plants for bees are the lotus, "trebol" and Eucaliptus. I am now interested in the White Locust (Robinia Pseudoacacia) with its variety of benefits. Here the foresters plant Eucaliptus because it grows quickly, but the honey is dark and bad in taste. I have heard about Robinia's honey and I am now planting a thousand of small trees.

Excuse me again, I feel happy to be in contact with all you.

Regards,
Chem. Eng. Alvaro Ferrés

[aufingers]

BullleyeBill,

The Huban clover came in and will be in the ground soon. Thanks wo much for your help.
Last week our local soil conservation district had their yearly plant sale. This was the first year they had any bush honeysucle. I bought 60 and have them planted along the west fence line of my pasture. I just trimmed my hybrid willow and will plant a bunch on the same fence line, they were the first thing to bloom this year and the bees were really working them.
The soil conservation charges $1.50 each for their bare root plants. I will see if they have any next year. Again, Thanks for your help.

Earl White

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Glad I could help.

[Michael Bush]

>I have heard about Robinia's honey and I am now planting a thousand of small trees.

I think certain trees are about the most promising honey plants for the area and the nectar output.

[Oxankle]

Alvaro:

Greetings, glad to hear from you.

I have a long fenceline with about a 50-foot border of black locust, our name for the Robinia Pseudoacacia.

It makes delicious honey, but on flat land it has a very short bloom period--less than two weeks--in my area about one week. In addition it blooms early and the honeyflow often coincides with inclement weather.

I heard recently about a newly developed locust that has a very long bloom period. I think it was called Robinia Perseverens.
I have no idea of its honey producing qualities as I have not yet been able to get any information concerning it.

However, if you are situated in hilly or mountainous country the common black locust should do wonders for you. It will begin blooming at the lower levels and work up to the top of the hills as the season moves along.

As for me, I need to find out more about the Robinia Perseverens.
Ox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Is this it?
http://www.thetreemanpr.com/plants/deciduous_trees/robina_ambigua_purple_robe.html

OK, here it is!
http://www.forestfarm.com/search/closeup.asp?PlantID=rops014

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited May 07, 2004).]

[Oxankle]

Bullseye:

This looks good, but I am almost certain it was Perseverens, not Semperflorens. Even so, Semperflorens would be a good start.

I am going to call the local paper's garden editor.
Ox

[Keith Benson]

I emailed the folks at Forest Farms re: this plant - they have it listed as an ornamental, and did not have any info re: nectar production or suitability as a honey plant.

Keith

[This message has been edited by kgbenson (edited May 11, 2004).]

[Alvaro Ferrés]

Ox:
Thanks you very much for your reply. I understand the problem with the black locust (Robinia Pseudoacacia) because its short blooming. Near my home there is a street with a lot and I now remember their bloom is very short.
I continue investigating about planting for bees. There are other posibilities: I am thinking and learning about salix, acer or tilia. Anyway I am now seeding Robinia and Eucaliptus Robusta, which is a good nectar and is beautiful.

Here in Uruguay nobody thinks about planting for bees. There are 700.000 hectareas of planted trees for pulp. Most of them are Eucaliptus Globulus, Grandis and Teretricornis. The Eucaliptus grows very quickly on my country, it gives up to 30 cubic meters per hectarea year; and gives very much nectar but Eucaliptus honey is black and not considered of good quality.
There are lots of clover and lotus fields. Beekeepers are always looking for these places.
So when I speak about planting for bees, people think I am crazy. But as Bill writed, if is not a good business, is a good hobby. And sure is important and good for society.

Well, I keep in contact with you all. Best regards, Alvaro

[Ricko]

I've read all through this thread and have only found one comment in regards to the taste of the honey from the Russian Olive bush which was that it was very inferior. The bush did produce water white honey. This is the next big bloom for me which should occur any day now. There are hundreds of these bushes in the fields around me.
Can anyone else confirm that the Russian Olive produces such bad tasting honey?
Thanks

[BerkeyDavid]

Alvaro:
Have you considered American Basswood?

Tilia americana Tiliaceae

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Education/ohiotrees/basswood.htm

If you search the forum you will find lots of posts about it.

I just planted 50. They are just starting to leaf out. I got some real nice trees this year from Cascade Forestry.

http://www.cascadeforestry.com/

Using the County tree planter my wife and I had them planted in an hour. All except the 4 I hand planted around my bee yard.

I always get the biggest they have. They are sold out now of the bigger ones.

[danno1800]

I planted 25 Basswood I got from Cascade and they are all leafing out nicely. I am very pleased with the quality of trees they sent me.

[BerkeyDavid]

Hey Danno, glad to hear it! I went through last night and hoed them. It looks like we have to watch out for Japanese Beetle damage.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/forestry/Education/ohiotrees/basswood.htm

Cascade only charged me for the smaller trees, even though the size was really pretty good. I ordered the 2-3 foot size but they graded smaller. I was surprised how many had multiple trunks.

[franc]

I just picked up some small nuc's I had in a Black locust patch and they each collected about 5-15 lbs of nectar of honey in about 2 days.This year hasn't been the best for locust too.Locust can start blooming their 3rd year for transplant and Ive seen them have a few blooms their 2nd year.

[danno1800]

Hey, Berkey, I went out to check them for Japanese Beetle damage last night and, knock wood, none so far. I was amazed to see that every single tree was alive and doing well. Didn't lose a single seedling. That's a first for me when planting this many trees. Stay tuned and thanks for the tip! -Danno

[BerkeyDavid]

Danno & franc

Danno: Yeah I was very impressed, I have not (double knock on wood) lost any of the bare rooted basswood stock yet either. It probably helped that the spring was cool and wet. Last year I lost about 10 % of my sugar maples right of the bat, and another 10-15% to rabbit damage during the fall and winter.

Franc I drove down to Cincinnati last weekend and could not believe how strong the Black Locust bloom was. The Black Locust was blooming heavy as far north as Dayton, OH as of May 15th.

[Billy Y.]

For those of you who are planting clover in pastures that are burned - Does the clover tolerate the burning the next year? If the pastures are burned say, in April, will the clovers survive?

Billy Smart

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Yes, we burn almost every year and it causes neither clover or alfalfa any problems. It will come back strong.

The only time you might have a problem is when the ground is too dry or you burn before the crown starts to green up.

[BerkeyDavid]

Bill and Billy

Why do you burn?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

It's a tradition. You should see the great Flint Hills of Kansas in the springtime. Prairie firestorms, flames fifty foot high, racing across the hills and ravines, animals running terrified for their lives, smoke so thick it causes auto accidents on the Turnpike killing thousands of people, well, a few now and again. :rolleyes: You just can not immagine how much fun you can have with a lighter and a pitchfork!

But the real reason is to clear the fields of old vegetation to make room for new growth. The old grass stocks livestock will not eat need to be removed as well as old weeds and immature tree saplings.

It really is wonderous to see the different stages of renewal. The blazing fire. The blackened land. The new growth. Then the soft lush green fields interspursed with prairie blooms and cowpatties.

AH, Kansas!.

[Billy Y.]

Some of my acreage is in the CRP program and I am contractually obligated to either burn or mow the CRP grass every few years. For the sake of simplicity though I burn the whole lot rather than just the CRP portion. If you could see how lush and green the new growth comes back you would understand why.

It is believed in the prehistory of the region that large, unbridled, prarie fires were a common occurance on the plains of Kansas, hence the unbroken, treeless grass land that met the Spanish explorers who first wandered here. It was this grass prarie that produced the gargantuan herds of buffalo that once wandered in these parts. Since the area was settled these prarie fires have become less frequent, and in the opinion of some, to the detriment of the ecology of the grassland prarie.

A lighter and pitchfork is old school. I use a butane torch. ;)

Billy Smart

[Michael Bush]

>It is believed in the prehistory of the region that large, unbridled, prarie fires were a common occurance on the plains of Kansas, hence the unbroken, treeless grass land that met the Spanish explorers who first wandered here.of the grassland prarie.

The American Indians used to light them every spring.

[Terri]

Yes, the Plains Indians DID burn. They used to send messages to any friends they may have had down wind.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>They used to send messages to any friends they may have had down wind.

Yeah, like.... RUN!!! :D

[Matthias Smith]

I don't know if this was asked before but how much of a honey flow would you expect from a few acres of wild raspberry ,wild rose and wild black berry/dewberry ?

[jaydee]

Is the mimosa tree good for bees.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Contrary to my previous posting, I do not recomend that you burn off your clover field.

I lost my hubam field due to overcrowding last year and was concerned that my yellow clover had too much competition from the broam that came back after planting the field to clover. The weekend before Easter I burned my field, the clover was 6 to 10 inches tall in places. It must have been too late to burn as I have no bloom in that field this year. The plants are growing well and so is the broam. I guess we'll have some feed for the cattle and horses.

The CRP fields we burned all have both alfalfa and clover blooming. Somethings just don't add up.

I have a beautiful field of hairy vetch blooming! I'll get pictures up in the near future. The bees are going crazy! I'm adding a super about every two weeks. This is a great year for honey.

[David Stewart]

<Is the mimosa tree good for bees.>

I've been curious about that myself. The bees are working them over heavy at first light then tapering off through the afternoon. Searched the forum and found several mention mimosa but can't find many opinions as to quality/quantity. They "seem" to be working hard fighting through the fringe part of the flower (with the pollen) to get at the center of the flower presumably for nectar. Whole yard is fragrant with the smell.

[power napper]

How about butterfly bush--around here it is just starting to bloom, the flowers are almost flourescent orange and the seed pods look like miniature canoes. The bees really go to them and since they are perrenial and self seeding no work involved. White sumac is really good also and the goldenrod plants of many species are abundant here but the bees almost totally ignore them for some othe more attractive nectar source. In the fall the wild asters are are really appreciated by my bees. I have tried buckwheat and the bees ignored it, whatever suits them best is where they go in my opinion.

[Ronnie Elliott]

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Sun/Shade: full sun
How to Grow it: Since this is a desert species, give it sharp drainage. It demands full sun, and appreciates dry conditions. Plant in spring.
Etc: This lovely lavender flower is more a curiosity than major colormaker in any meadow. It also should be used sparingly, since it can easily become weedy.



MIXTURES INDIVIDUAL SPECIES ON-LINE CATALOG

[Billy Y.]

BILL:

I think if there was clover already in the green when you burned then you burned too late in the season. I read that cattle will eat the clover down too much and kill it eventually - better to cut it and feed as hay.

Your honey flow is going much better than mine this year. My scale hive gains only around a pound a day if at all. Only a super or so per hive. Too dry for me in April and too wet in May methinks.

[ClatsOre]

Phacelia tanacetifolia
Common name(s): Lacy Phacelia
Genus: Phacelia Species: tanacetifolia Variety: Cultivar:
An annual wildflower of sizable portions that grows under creosote and other desert shrubs in the Mojave, Quercus dumosa, Q. Douglasiana and Juniperus californica and other dryland trees in the California interior, and drier sections of Southern California. On of the many plants that you cannot figure out how exists in such a harsh site looking succulent and full of blue flowers in spring. Come back in July and there is nothing there, it disappears back into the earth. Give sun to part shade and a bush or tree to hang around, good drainage and this plant may work for seeded in spring color.

[DZE]

What about pecan trees?
I noticed my wild hive working mine this year to the point I thought there was a swarm in the tree.
I have not found it listed as a pollen or nectar producer.

[ikeepbees]

I must admit that I've never seen honeybees working pecan tree blooms.

As to the mimosa question, I've seen honeybees working mimosa and bottlebrush. Don't know what or how much they were getting from it though.

[Matt K]

I did notice on one of the lists that bees work bind weed has anyone ever seen this? It seems to me this might be the one good thing about the nasty stuff.
Matt

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I've seen them on bind weed. I don't know what they get from it though. I wish I could remember what time of day it was, that could tell me wether it was nectar or not.

[Mabe]

In July and August the anise hyssop (purple agastache) is covered with bees. This plant is a prairie native, grows from seed and spreads easily and is gorgeous. I sell scads of it at my native plants nursery. They also love lavender. There is a hardier one that we can grow in WI.

I also overseed all of my lawn area and meadows with white dutch clover. That is "lawn sacrilege" here in the midwest, but my lawn looks better than anyones around here and I don't fertilize.

[BerkeyDavid]

Mabe
We had a long discussion about anise hyssop on here last year. Have you ever started it from seed?

[Matt K]

I would guess nectar from the shape of the flower and the little interaction I have had with it ripping/digging it out of the ground.

Mabe, funny you mention lavender I just planted some in front of my hives. I just planted about 400 square feet of dutch white clover in my back yard good ground cover if nothing else.
Matt

[Mabe]

David,
Yes, you can easily start agastache from seed...in fact, once you get it, it reseeds itself EVERYWHERE! I have about a million plants in my gardens (not where they need to be). You can easily pull up the seedlings, but I hate to compost bee plants. Will be slowly moving them all to my meadow.

Matt,
We lived in Colorado for years...the white dutch clover really helps get the grasses established. In Lakewood you probably have a real lawn. In Black Forest we grew the xeriscape grasses with the clover. Hint - trim back your lavender a few times until it thickens up and then let it bloom in July-August.

[BerkeyDavid]

Mabe
Can you tell us when the best time to start Agastache from seed is (Fall or spring) and a good cheap source for seed? also ground prep, etc. Thanks!

[Matt K]

I kept my eyes open this weekend and indeed bees in the bindweed flowers and they could be getting pollen for sure lots of white power.

Mabe,
Yes I have a "real" lawn. I want to get rid of the bulk of the bluegrass in favor of perennials. The clover was a long strip that nothing much was growing on in my back yard close to the bees. Thanks for the advice with the lavender will you remind me next year please?
Matt

[Gregory_Naff]

DZE,
Bees work pecan tress and produce a very flavorful honey. (it makes an amazing mead).

I just found this site about a week ago and have spent the last couple of days catching up.

I am looking for a nice fall planting for about 2 acres. It needs to be low water use, but able to survive VERY base soil. Any suggetions?

[Robert Hawkins]

How about buckwheat?

http://www.seedland.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=WG-BUCK-WH-50&Category_Code=

They say any soil.

Hawk

[Mabe]

David,

Call around to your garden centers right now and see if anyone has agastache to sell. Even one plant will get you stated nicely...it will bloom soon and then will seed all around itself. You can also spread the seed where you want it. I carry the stalks around my meadow and shake them as I walk.

I'll check some suppliers I use for seed and post the info.

As far as planting the seed, there are no special needs other than some open soil, a light cover of soil on top of the seeds, and water till the seedlings take off. They don't need coddling. Hope this helps.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Here is an update on my little field of dreams.

I planted the field in three sections, the alfalfa did not fare well, between the aphids and the brome grass it turned out to be a waste of land use. I did start sowing the worst part of it into buckwheat. The buckwheat reseeded itself but it sprouted too early (or late) and froze leaving no seed for the next spring.

The Hubam white clover is an annual when planted here. It bloomed the first spring it was planted. The seed produced came up that fall and bloomed again but was too late in the season to produce seed and the next year there was almost no white clover. That fall I planted that area to harry vetch and had two good years of vetch until this year when the late Easter freeze killed it. Now I had two useless areas.

The third area where the yellow clover was (was being the optimum word) had been weakened by the planter (me) burning the field off of heavy ground cover, (mostly brome), two years ago in late winter. :( and the brome grass crowding the clover out. Again the late freeze killed any chance of having a bloom from any surviving clover.

The cure.

The coop told me last year that it would take two treatments of Roundup to kill out the brome grass. They treated last fall and the next application was this summer, (should have been spring but that is another story). The field had been totally killed and sat dead for one month. This weekend I burned off all the weeds and hopefully the weed seeds too. Then the field was disced and surprisingly it worked up very well.

Next weekend I will plant twice, once with buckwheat and harry vetch using a standard seed drill, and then planting yellow clover with a grass drill rented from the soil conservation district.

My hope is that there is enough time for the buckwheat to come up and make a fall crop for the bees to pack away for winter stores while the vetch and clover should come up and get enough growth to make bloom set next year.