Regresion to Small Cell

[Beemeister]

I began the first phase of regressing my bees late March of this year. I inserted medium depth frames a couple at a time into the brood nest. Some frames were foundationless with a spline glued into the groove of the top bar as a guide. I also used WTB frames and 3/4" starter strips of small cell foundation. Usually the first frame or two they decided to draw out as drone comb. Afterwards they usually settled down to drawing mostly worker sized cells in the range of from 5.1 to 5.4 mm. At this time probably 3/4 of the frames in my brood nest (3 medium depth supers) have been replaced. They have had ample time to raise several generations in these new combs. Within the last week I inserted some frames of small cell foundation into the center of the brood nest to see if they would now draw out the 4.9 mm cell size. All my frames are medium depth. Of the frames of 4.9 mm small cell foundation that I'm now inserting, some are crimp wired foundation and some are umwired, deep small cell foundation cut in half and wired horizontally. I checked on their progress today and was a bit disappointed. Some swarms from this year are doing a pretty good job. Some nucs that I started this spring did their 1st regression and are now doing a decent job of drawing out the 4.9mm foundation. Other nucs are not getting with the program! They are rebuilding all different sizes of cells and making a general mess of the foundation. That is of course this beekeepers opinion.... They are probably loving life and thinking they are doing a fine job! I've read that early spring build-up is the best time to get established colonies to draw smaller sized cells.I would really like to get my colonies established on small cell combs this year if possible to aid in varroa control.....I'm tired of being a varroa farmer!... Although the main flow is over here now, sumac and white Dutch clover are providing some nectar so they will still draw foundation and I will feed them 1:1 sugar syrup if they need it later to draw foundation. I could take the queen, a couple of frames of brood, some small cell foundation and shake a bunch of young bees at the old hive location and move the old hive to a new location. Has anyone had any success using this technique at this stage of the season to get them to draw 4.9 mm cells? Any other suggestions that have worked for you? I'm hoping to not have to wait until next spring to get them to 4.9mm size.

[Michael Bush]

You could do the shaken swarm thing as late as the end of July here and have a reasonable chance of them building up for winter. If they don't you can combine in the fall.

My opinion on regression is just go at a slow steady pace. They will get there eventually.

[peggjam]

If there isn't any real nector sources available, ie, no steady flow, putting feed on them now will help them get interested in drawing foundation. This is one of those sooner rather than later deals, the sooner you get them drawing foundation, the better it will bee.

[tecumseh]

I must admit I have NO information about this 'small cell' hypothesis. must say that my first impression of this concept sounded a bit like alien bioliogy. is there any site or information out there that might explain just what and why of this idea????

[Beemeister]

Hi Michael! Thanks for your response.I've been reading the posts here for the last 6 months and have especially enjoyed and learned much from your responses. Your web site has been very helpful also.Thank you for being so generous with your time and knowledge.

I have been using powdered sugar, genetics, and screened bottom boards the last couple of years to keep the varroa mites in check. I would really like to eliminate the powdered sugar and use small cell and hopefully get back to just enjoying keeping bees and stop feeling like much of what I'm doing is struggling to keep varroa from overrunning my colonies.


My goal for this year is to have the colonies ready for winter with about 50%-60% of the combs in the core of the brood nest small cell. The rest of the combs will be from the 1st regression. By small cell size I mean a size small enough to give the bees a greater advantage over the varroa. From my reading here it looks like this would be around 4.9mm. About 1/3 to 1/2 of my colonies are on track to do this by the fall.

The other colonies may need some help if they are to have this configuration by this fall. Michael, I know that I can do the "shaken swarm thing" and have them strong enough to survive the winter, but will they go from the 1st regression to drawing 4.9 mm at this time of the year? What has been your experience with this?

" My opinion on regression is just go at a slow steady pace."

That was how I was planning on doing it this year. Now, some of my hives seem a little reluctant to make the next step down in size. I'm wondering what I can do to to encourage them. I can just keep feeding either small cell foundation or starter strips into the brood nest over the summer, but are they likely to build the 4.9mm size at this time of the season? Should I wait until late summer or early in the fall and feed a few more frames into the brood nest then? Are they more likely to draw more small cell then as they are gradually backfilling and contracting their brood nest and thinking about their core brood nest?

Thanks for for the help.

Tim

[Beemeister]

Thanks Peggjam for your response.
At this time, there is still enough nectar coming in that they are still drawing out the foundation. Some of my colonies are drawing it out as the 4.9 mm that is imprinted on the foundation. About half of the colonies are reworking the foundation into a variety of sizes other than the 4.9 mm that is imprinted on the foundation. These same colonies have had foundationless frames and frames with small cell starter strips inserted into the brood nest every week or so since late March or early April. I would have thought that they would be through with their 1st regression and ready for the 4.9 mm cell size by now. I also thought that they would have built enough drone comb to satisfy their need for drones. I'm not culling drone comb as a part of varroa control as I really want alot of drones out there with good survivor type genetics to mate with the extra queens I'm raising to have on hand. The combs that these bees are drawing have some drone cells, and worker cells of various sizes...Some are 4.9 mm like embossed on the foundation, but most are a larger size.

[peggjam]

Have you tried any foundationless frames? I find as MB suggests, they will draw out a varitey of different sizes, depending on what they are going to use them for. You proably won't get straight 4.9mm cells on an entire frame, but what you would hope for is 4.9mm in the area of the frame used for worker brood. I find that I get a combination of sizes in that area, but that the majority of the cells are 4.9mm.

[Beemeister]

I haven't used any foundationless frames in the last month or so. Initially I guess half of my 1st regression frames were foundationless and half were small cell starter strips (3/4").The foundationless frames had a wooden spline glued into the grooved top bar. As you say Peggjam they built a variety of sized cells on both of these types of frames. I was pretty happy with their progress on the 1st stage of their regression. Recently I've given them 4.9 mm foundation hoping that pattern would encourage them to construct more 4.9 mm cells. Over the years, when I put 5.4 mm foundation in the brood nest they usually draw out mostly beautiful sheets of 5.4 mm cells. I was hoping that they would do this with the 4.9 mm foundation. My thought was that the sooner I can encourage them to build more 4.9 mm cells in the core of the brood nest, the better they will be equiped to handle varroa. My ultimate goal is to have them on all foundationless frames in the next couple of years and on all natural combs. If encouraging them to build 4.9 mm cells by using foundation works and helps to get varroa under control, then I'm willing to invest the time ,energy and expense to do it now and I'll get them switched over to natural cell after I'm over this hill. One third to one half of the colonies are drawing out the small cell foundation as 4.9 mm. It's the other colonies I'm scratching my head about.

Thanks for the help.

Tim

[Michael Bush]

>is there any site or information out there that might explain just what and why of this idea????

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm

The highlights are this:

5.4mm (standard comb size) is not natural sized cells.

On natural sized cells the brood is capped a day sooner and emerges two days sooner.

There is some speculation (and some research) that smaller cells affects the ability of the male Varroa to mate. There is also some studies to show that less varroa will infest smaller cells. And, of course, a shorted capping time will decrease the number of viable offspring.

http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2002/01/Martin.pdf?access=ok

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm

>but will they go from the 1st regression to drawing 4.9 mm at this time of the year? What has been your experience with this?

If they are forced to draw brood comb (as they will with a shakedown) my experience is they have drawn smaller cells.