Almond Pollination 2006

[TwT]

Just wondering what the price this coming year is for the almond fields, for those of you that already have contracts, whats the going rate for 2006 and how many hives you sent or sending?

[LSPender]

Currently I have not signed a contract with a price because its to early to know what the supply of hives is going to be. Reliable info is beekeepers have signed contacts from a low of 125.00 per hive up to 165.00 for large contacts, 3000 + hives, which all sounds great but reality will be setting between now and Jan. on the surviving # of hives available for pollination. As one keeper told me he's feeding 3 to get 1 for pollination. Also hearing from many large operations the quality of the hives currently is worrying them, worst ever. So in short terms the price is not relly an issue, the growers need bees to get a crop and we the keepers need the hives to get paid and I forcast a large shortage in the # of hive this 2006 pollination season. I do suspect I will be recieving between 160 & 185 per hive this season.

[fillmiller]

I take it that Is for the season and not per month.

[Robert Hawkins]

Almond pollination is early part of the season not the whole season. Then you can move on to other crops or go home and lick your wounds.

Hawk

[BjornBee]

I know two big outfits here on the east coast that are sending hives out west. All they have to do is have them on pallets, and they will get 70 dollars each hive. They will be picked up and returned. Doesn't get any easier than that. I guess the rest is split up between the hauler and the outfit taking care of them out west for the month or two.

[Robert Hawkins]

And if they send out 3,000 hives and 1500 come back alive????

Hawk

[tecumseh]

hawk sezs:
And if they send out 3,000 hives and 1500 come back alive????

tecumseh replies:
just trust me... right? and I hope those trusting folks send out junk hives cause that is likely to be what they get back.

[BjornBee]

Sure losses are part of the business. And thats why some keep bees. For business, ie. profit.

You say 3,000 colonies? At 70 dollars each and you do nothing but get them ready for pick-up. Thats $210,000 dollars. Lets assume you lose half, raise no queens of your own and just buy 1500 queens at say 10 dollars each. Thats $15000. Now your down to $195,000 dollars.

Will some of your hives come back built up from the early pollination of almonds. Sure. Are these ready to be split. Sure. By the beginning of April your bees will be back on the east coast, requeened with young new queens, and all your losses(hives) will be made back up. You will still have them for pollination and/or honey production. The new queens will no doubt make more honey and be better layers than the queens you over-wintered so some losses are actually made up with a higher honey yield. Feeding and building them back up is a constant anyways for alot of operations.

I think if your sitting around with 3,000 hives and your not pollinating as much as you can, your missing out. And you mention a 50% loss if your hives go to california. If you subtract what some beekeepers lose over the winter, whether in the northeast or down south, from 50%, the difference is less.

I am sure that cost of prep, taxes and other considerations could be discussed. But small details can be cast in many ways. I'll leave all that alone.

[Bob Harrison]

Pa is a tough place to possibly dig hives from a snowbank and ship to almonds (see my article in ABJ April 2004 "Loading Hives in a Missouri Snowstorm" or the picture on the cover of the Jan. 2005 Bee Culture).

Migratory beekeepers are movers of boxes and they do the job with ease.

If you send good strong hives with young queens, mite & disease free, properly prepared for winter(and prepared for being sent to almonds) and with plenty of stores your hives *should come back in decent shape*.

Cold can kill hives enroute from so far if temps are around zero and extreme wind chills.Figure zero temp plus wind chill times 70 MPH. We try and tarp the front of the load (those are the most likely to die)

Most losses are the problem of the sending beekeeper. Sending junk bees is a mistake. Because for each hive which dies enroute you will lose the pollination fee and still pay the trucking and handling fees. The bees coming out of Pa in late January are a small ball many times. Two hives might need be combined to get the amount of frames needed to get the pollination fee. Then you lose one pollination fee , hive and queen and still pay trucking and handling.
The migratory beekeeper hauling the Pa bees will pop all lids most likely to observe the cluster. Combining is common practice. Junk bees could drop from 3000 to 1500.
When you hear of a beekeeper having trouble over getting his pollination fees its usually (not always) because he has brought (in the night) junk bees which are almost dead.
We send only the best properly preparred hives and get back the same. Send early and you had better arrange for at least one feeding in California. We even had to feed in almond pollination one year.
A beekeeper in south Missouri dug two semi loads out of a snowbank and sent to California a few years ago with Lyle Johnston. All were dead but around 20% and those were even too weak and dying to combine. Both loads were returned without a pollination fee. The beekeepers hives were dead and he had to pay two roundtrip trucking fees to California. Lyle felt sorry for the beekeeper and waved the loading and unloading fees in California. The beekeeper has not sent bees to California since. Tough first trip to almonds.

We have always had good luck with sending bees to almonds but are due for a problem year as most beekeepers which send on a regular basis do get a problem year and bees come back in bad shape.

The avoid a problem year do not send junk bees!

[loggermike]

Then again it may get into the high 70s every day and the problem will be hives ready to swarm at the end of bloom! Send good hives and that will likely be the problem you have to deal with.Weak hives wont pull ahead much unless conditions are ideal and the queen is exceptional, which she probably isnt or it wouldnt be a weak hive.Junk in -junk out.I dont know where prices will end up , but at these price levels, you can be sure the hives are going to get a good looking over by the growers.Weak hives can be rented as long as evryone is up front about whats in the boxes.
----Mike

[Brian Suchan]

Currently I have not signed a contract with a price because its to early to know what the supply of hives is going to be. Reliable info is beekeepers have signed contacts from a low of 125.00 per hive up to 165.00 for large contacts, 3000 + hives, which all sounds great but reality will be setting between now and Jan. on the surviving # of hives available for pollination. As one keeper told me he's feeding 3 to get 1 for pollination. Also hearing from many large operations the quality of the hives currently is worrying them, worst ever. So in short terms the price is not relly an issue, the growers need bees to get a crop and we the keepers need the hives to get paid and I forcast a large shortage in the # of hive this 2006 pollination season. I do suspect I will be recieving between 160 & 185 per hive this season

Arent you at all worried that there will be tons on new guys & bees coming out there & that will drive the price down. you know just the opposite of the way things worked outlast year.

[Bob Harrison]

Mike is correct in his points.

As I said in my article in the April 2005 issue of ABJ "Pro's & Con's of almond pollination" hives returning to the Midwest or Pa with 8-12 frames of brood in March can be a big problem especially if you are not interested in increase.
Normal overwintered hives in Pa would I suspect be on 3-4 frames of brood then.

Bees which have raised a huge amount of brood in almonds have starved before after almonds waiting for the broker to ship back to the midwest.Normally almonds is more of a pollen event than a honey event.

No broker I have met will give your bees the same kind of care you would!

They are movers of boxes or contract the movement of boxes.

[jean-marc]

I'd cetainly be tempted to stay home and let other beekeepers do all the loading, unloading of hives. However some bees have been contracted out at $140 and more. I'd say the beekeeper (owner of 3000 hives) should be able to negotiate a better fee than $70. If the price is 140 per hive, then there is 210 000 going to the other outfit to truck and place hives out and return them. I know it can be a pain in the a**, but once trucking fees are paid (14 x 4000 = 64 000) it leaves about 150 000. Seems to me the owner should do the job or get himself a better deal. 150 000 to load hives unload and place in the field or about $50 per hive after trucking is paid. That $50 is the full amount paid for other sets (apples and blueberries, more or less) and many guys would be happy to do that job (loading/unloading) for $20. On the other Brazil is a great place about that time of year and to be able to collect a fee without having to be personally involved can be tempting.

Jean-Marc

[Bob Harrison]

In my article I left out the theft problem. Opps!
Also pallets set in areas of flooding and also pallets set in an area where they do not get any sun. Some of those pallets of bees die for reasons i am not sure of and the inside of the comb has a serious mold.

Pa is a long way from California. Many days on the road for bees both ways. The longer ride means for a higher queen lose in general.

I do not want to scare Pa beekeepers but rather let you go into almond pollination with your eyes open!

I have had problems with alomond pollination and learned from the mistakes. Mistakes are expensive when involving numbers of bees. If the south Missouri beekeeper had called myself or my partner we would have advised and perhaps he would not have been in the situation he found himself in.

I am a gambler but I never bet more than I can afford to lose.

As I said it is not easy to find quality people in California to place and remove your hives. Most do are simply box movers. A few will treat your bees as they would their own!

The beekeeper from south Missouri I talked about almost went bankrupt from his total hive loss.

His equipment which the bank loaned money on was sold at auction (except for the equipment he collected insurance on from the fire which destroyed one of his buildings after his bees returned from almonds).Many of the beekeepers which attended the auction (my partner) said they only saw his junk at the sale.

The good news is the beekeeper has rebuilt and is back in the commercial bee business but has lost credit with his banker I have been told by beekeepers from the area. Not sure as to his standing with his insurance agent after the terrible fire which gutted his main building.

[BjornBee]

First everyone is looking at just one set of circimstances.

Snow drifts....Bees are loading and leaving on November first. Anyone want to guess the relevancy of comments dealing with snow drifts in southcentral Pennsylvania. About Zilch. We only see snow about 10% of the time before Christmas in any given year.

As for the breakdown on who gets what...70 is just a cut. I understand that the deal included loading, trucking, and delivey back to Pa. I personally know the trucking firm. Hackenburg apiaries. I think they know what they are doing. The deal also includes them being placed and maintained by beekeepers in California until placed for pollination. The two beekeepers are also planning on flying out and doing some hive maintainance in January. I think the bees will do fine.

I personally inspected these operations and they are not sending bad hives. I know some beekeepers in the northeast who send their bees to Georgia and Florida just to over-winter them. I see nothing more than just a longer trip. I know outfits that lose 10 to 50% of their bees going through winter, and not paid a cent.

[Bob Harrison]

I know Dave also. First i ever heard of Dave hauling hives into California but he might have been and hauling back Cowen machines on the return trip. The California/ Pa trip would not be profitable for a trucker without a back haul.

We have sent hives to California in November but had to make a couple trips to feed as they fly every day. Found out pulling out of a snow bank was better.

The bees used less feed and less theft in California.

Dave has friends in California so he should be OK.

[BjornBee]

Rob, my mistake. Hauling on Dec. 1st.

[Robert Hawkins]

Aha, BjornBee;

See the probability of snow drifts goes up to 3%. tongue.gif

Hawk

[tecumseh]

first off when I made the comment as to JUNK I was referring to the equipment and not the condition of the bees. so, sorry about adding that bit of confusion.

correction direct to jean-marc... 14 X4000 is 56000 if my calculator still calculates, but more importantly what does the 14 and 4000 represent?

bjornb adds:
Snow drifts....Bees are loading and leaving on November first. Anyone want to guess the relevancy of comments dealing with snow drifts in southcentral Pennsylvania. About Zilch. We only see snow about 10% of the time before Christmas in any given year

tecumseh replies:
you have evidently never crossed the rocky mountains from october on I would assume... and a good artic express is just as likely to waylay you anywhere west of the missouri river... and while you are actively dodging that bullet in real time it is NEVER really clear that the southern route is any better than the northern route.... for example last october I encountered a small snow storm in lubbock texas which I ended up waiting out for 24 hours....

even with optimal weather I would assume within any profit equation a 15-20% loss due to shipping one way. a one way trip would have to be 4000 mile from pa, so I would expect the above numbers to be extremely consevative. anyone got any better number for this one consideration? if you encountered truely bad weather you could even loose the entire load and still be legally committed to fulfilling a contract.

but my ultimate question to Rob Harrison is: given that you could average out all the casualty concerns, if you had in hand a contract for say 1000 hive for the almond pollination and a project transport distance one way of 2000 miles what is the magic number of hives that you would start out with to complete this committment?

[BjornBee]

Hawk, It feels good to laugh sometimes more than other times. That hit the spot. :D

[Bob Harrison]

tecumseh,
I think you covered the enroute issue very well. years ago we were caught in three foot of snow on I 80 outside of Cheyenne. When those across the interstate gates swing shut you sit. I have seen the road so icy 10MPh is too fast. Can't move without chains. Not allowed to move without chains. We get on I80 in Nebraska. The weather can change by the time you get to Cheyenne or around Salt Lake.
I70 can be worse as the snow control across Kansas is terrible but excellent around Denver.
Dave H. is a professional driver as i am and those situations don't scare us but can be nerve racking with a load of bee hives on.

As to your question.

I would never commit to a 1000 contract as over a 2 semi loads. 900 might work. or 1300 for 3 semis.
Most beekeepers bring extras but usually in semi loads if coming a distance. They might bring extras on a flatbed 10 wheeler pulling a forklift. If doing a large almond orchard and you can only provide say 900 of a 1000 contract you simply try to get another beekeeper doing pollination in the area to provide the rest. Happens all the time.

The higher pricing for pollination makes all things possible. Every beekeeper from the Midwest I know simply has a flatbed trucker haul his bees. In even semi loads. The number on a load is controlled by weight. Some loads scale with 480 doubles, some with only 450.
I have heard of 500 doubles but never seen a load scale with 500 if the hives have been fed up.

So if you are sending two loads tecumseh I would simply load and send to a broker
or
load both semi loads and then travel (with your truck & loader) along behind with the loads to California and unload myself in a holding yard. Then fly back. fly out and put in the almonds and fly back. fly out and remove from almonds into a holding yard. Then follow the semis back and unload.

Many independent flatbed drivers are dependable but you have to furnish nets and front corner wood strips. The driver usually has cross straps for the front and a tarp for the front. You might get a driver which has never hauled a load of bees.

Regular bee haulers are usually booked a year ahead and have regular beekeepers they haul for but you could ask around. They carry the nets etc. for hauling bees. They will usually help with neting as they want it right. Independents usually will not even touch a strap.
If you have never loaded and netted a semi you will need a beekeeper which has to help unless the driver has hauled bees before.

[LSPender]

Update to my first reply
For those of you stary eyed by the price of pollination, you should first do a season then reality will set in and you will be prepared for the life of pollination. For the first timer that is sending bees on a truck to CA what do you do with the bees and when? I recommend developing a business relation with someone in CA that can handle the hives in ca, from unloading, holding yards, locations, forklifts, trucks, feed tanks, pollen substitute, medications, etc. If you don't you need to hire your own crew and put them up in CA. Ask large commercial beekeepers how this works for them, they have people on both ends and equipment on both ends because it takes TIME and equipment to do the work.
I have working business relations with a few beekeepers from MN & ID and handle the CA almond pollination for them because there are many variables that come in to play. From delays with truck to rain storms. I do this for a profit which means I also take a risk that the variables will not cause problemes so both the beekeeper from MN and I make a profit, which as a reminder comes after expenses. Which range from disiel, motel rooms, HFCS,etc and trucking which costs about $ 10.00 per hive each way, that includes the outs. So if a semi truck has 408 doubles and only 80% qualify for a pollination fee (326) you still have to pay to ship each way, now the cost is $ 12.31 per hive sent to pollintion each way or $ 24.62, sure does eat into the 140 real fast.
Next question is what to do after the pollination which some have addressed before, if you don't you may not have much left to work with.

Best regards to all, I appreciate everyones feedback on Beesourse. I have learned a lot from all of you. Look forward to more.

[LSPender]

P.S. someone ask if I was concerned about the price going down with all the "new Guys" coming to CA. The answer is easy, NO. In recent weeks I have spoke with more than 10 commercial beekeepers and I gather that as a industry we will be short, and it will take few years to ketch up.

[Bob Harrison]

LSPender,
I am getting many reports of deadouts from commercial beekeepers. Seems each time they feed they are returning with a bunch of deadouts. not what I am seeing but what I am hearing.

[jean-marc]

tecumseh:

The 14 was trips of bees, 7 each way, 14 return at about 4000.00 each way. I do not know the true cost, just a guess. If I were a new guy going in I would want the going rate, perhaps more especially that most of these new guys are coming from further on down the road. They carry more risk and expense. This sounds just too darn exciting. Someone open the border, please.

Jean-Marc

[Bob Harrison]

Jean-Marc and i have had private converstations about the border. I say let Jean-Marc take my place as moving bees up and down the highways and living out of a suitcase does not excite me like it did at one time.

I do enjoy the motel time in California. Sitting around with beekeepers from all over the U.S. waiting for the phone to ring saying its time to move in or out of almonds.

The players change from year to year but the game is basically the same. The new beekeepers on the scene get the groves the others do not want for a variety of reasons. The ideal situation is to be able to place all your hives with a single grower which is close to your holding yard.

Weak and dying hives will always be a problem. Bring good bees!

These growers can spot poor bees from their pickup trucks. Trying to BS them will not work! Many are hiring beekeepers to evaluate the new beekeepers hives. Many times the only way get your hives placed is to combine hives if they are visably weak on say three frames of bees. Top money is for bees covering 8 frames. Read the small print of your contract! Don't let a broker or another beekeeper BS you about how dumb these growers are. All I have talked to are very knowledgeable!

[jean-marc]

Hotels???? I was thinking more along the lines of truck cabs. (just kidding) I'm not a big fan of being away from home, but the money seems irresistable. The benefits seem to outweigh the risks. I think I should go to California this February and check it out.

Like Bob said, farmers are not dumb. Say a farmer hires 1000 hives a year for the last 20 years, eventually even the slow ones figure out what is good and what is not. They may not know a lot about bee biology and why should they, but I'm sure they have a very good feel for good, medium and poor bee activity.

Jean-Marc

[Bob Harrison]

If it were not for the fire ant craziness then we would return to going to Texas and then on into California. Those hives really turn growers heads.

Best bees the growers said they had seen in years!

When we went back to direct shipment from the Midwest they were not pleased. But our bees were the same as the other beekeepers from out of state so the subject was dropped.

Talk about hives ready to pollinate almonds. Texas has late flows and California does not. Or at least we never found any!

Syrup & pollen pattie in California is not the same as a Texas late season intense flow for making strong hives. We tried one year to get a few barrels of the Texas fall honey and did. Had a light color and wonderful flavor BUT smelled kind of like dirty soaks so we dropped the idea!
Have no idea of the source only local beekeepers said not honey to sell but being from Missouri we had to see for ourselves.