bees in the wall

[DANIEL QUINCE]

One of my coworkers asked me if I can get the honey bees out of his house wall. Apparently they’ve been there for about 3-4 years. They use a small hole (about 2” dia.) in the wall, about 18-20 feet high. Is there a method that does not damage the house?
Thank you.
Daniel

[Kieck]

You could use an insecticide to kill them without doing physical damage to the house. Otherwise, be prepared to make some repairs.

Maybe someone else knows of a way to remove them without damaging the house? The only way I know if making a hole in the wall large enough to remove the comb and the bees if you wish to keep them alive.

[Michael Bush]

Do a search on the "cone method" and you'll find some info. It's not foolproof, but sometimes it works.

[george dilley]

would it be possible to attach something like a bee escape over there hole so no bees could get back in when out foraging?

[janvanhamont]

Do not use pesticide as this is not allowed by the law if you do not have the pesticide license. This also applies to pesticides available over the counter.
Also if you "could" kill the bees with an insecticide you will have a mess of dead beas and honey and eventually the rodents, ants and wax moths. This produces a terrible smell.
I said "could" because in most instances you will fail to kill the bees as you cannot get into the nest. You may even drive the bees further into the house.
A better way and this is what I will recommend is the funnel method. Make a funel with hardware cloth such as window screen wire and attach this funnel over the opening. The point of the funnel should have an opening the size of a drone.
Set a beehive close to the opening of the funnel. This should be a beehive with a queen and enough brood and bees so it can support itself.
Make sure there are no other openings where the bees can escape.
The bees will leave the funnel and when they return they will go to the base ao the funnel and can not enter. As most of the bees are loaded with pollen or nectar they will have to drop their load somewhere, and eventually they will enter the hive and are in generaly accepted as they carry a load.
It will take three to four weeks untill there is no longer any bees leaving the funnel. Afer four weeks one can assume that there no longer any bees in the wall cavity, only combs and honey.
At this point you can remove the hive and bring another hive, remove the funnel and theoretically these bees will remove the honey.
If you are sure the colony is located in the wall, it would not be a disaster if the honey melts. However if the bees are in a ceiling the honey may melt in warm weather and do a lot of damage.
Very often the bees entering at an 8 ft level in a two story house are located in the 10 inch ceiling cavity. Drilling holes to access the colony if here the only solution and is easy to patch up and repair.

[Kieck]

I shouldn't disagree with what Janvanhamont said. The principle is correct.

Pesticide uses vary by states, definitely. In most states, home owners are allowed to use insecticides around their homes for whatever reason they see fit. For instance, you don't need a license to spray roaches in your kitchen or set out a bait station for ants. Same goes for most other situations, as long as you're the owner.

>>I said "could" because in most instances you will fail to kill the bees as you cannot get into the nest. You may even drive the bees further into the house.

I've used insecticides to kill yellow jacket colonies in walls with great success, especially when they're using one primary entrance/exit. I usually soak a cotton ball or a paper towel in the insecticide of choice, then put it into the hole in such a way that the insects have to brush against it as they come or go. No spraying, usually works within a few days, and I've never had problems with them working their way into homes because of this method.

>>Set a beehive close to the opening of the funnel. This should be a beehive with a queen and enough brood and bees so it can support itself.

The problem that I saw with this method earlier was the height of the colony (claimed 18 to 20 feet off the ground). Either that's one really long funnel, or you've got to have some way to support the hive up at that height.

Of course, if you just wanted them out of the wall, it should work fine. I don't know, maybe 20 feet away is close enough to position the hive that they'd still be likely to take up residence there?

[MountainCamp]

If you have honey bees in a wall, you will sooner or later have to open that wall up and clean the mess out.
The honey and wax left behind when you just kill the bees will attract ants, mice, flies, etc.
If the space gets to hot and the wax melts, you will have honey and wax stains on the walls.

[iddee]

Read through this thread I started last year. It helped me trap out about a half dozen hives and I have not had a complaint about the mess. My guess is the bees eat all the honey before the queen comes out.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003489;p=1#0000 00

[TwT]

If you have honey bees in a wall, you will sooner or later have to open that wall up and clean the mess out.
The honey and wax left behind when you just kill the bees will attract ants, mice, flies, etc.
If the space gets to hot and the wax melts, you will have honey and wax stains on the walls.
This statement is what I think best fits, now I have never removed a hive with the funnel method, but I have done some removals, sooner or later you the home owner might have to do some repairs, since its in the wall, it might just fall between the wall studs one day and never any damage be seen, but just knowing it's there, I would find the easiest way the get the entire hive out the wall (bee's and comb). I would never kill a hive in a house, will get messy later.

[Michael Bush]

>would it be possible to attach something like a bee escape over there hole so no bees could get back in when out foraging?

That would be the cone method.

[janvanhamont]

It was the coworker who was asked to remove the bees. Yes the owner can use all pesticide he wants but the coworker becomes the contractor and the pesticide laws apply here.
The funnel should be about one foot long. A leightweight beehive (some suppliers have a five frame styrofoam box) should be hoisted to the level of the funnel and attached in some fashion.
I have done many removals using the funnel, in particular removing bees from trees which cannot be cut down. It is not a cheaper method as many visits are required to assure that no other exits are found by the bees.
When removing bees from a tree using the funnel method, I drill a new hole at a convenient place in the tree, stick in a 3/4 inch plastic pipe in this hole and put a very small funnel on top of the pipe. Then I seal all the openings with plaster of paris.
I have also used this pipe method for removing bees from inside a wall. Sometimes it is easier to drill a small hole in a mortar joint and seal up all other openings with silicone caulking or plaster of paris. Then use a oiece of wood with the pipe mounted in the center and mount it over the new opening, or use a funnel. If you want to avoid making a funnel you can use the pipe method providing you put a few small holes at the base of the pipe so the bees can smell or hear the colony and do not look for the tip of the funnel. A cricket container sold at sports stores can also be used as a funnel.
Sometimes it is just not possible to open a wall and the funnel method is the only way. I never had any problem with the honey afterwards, as somebody said it may have been consumed by the time the bees are removed.
Sometimes bees come out of the funnel at one second intervals. Only once I have seen a bee crawl back in through the tip of the funnel.

[Walt McBride]

Daniel, ascertain if you can where the bees are infact. Second story wall or above ceiling. Feel out the area on the inside wall directly opposite the opening on the outside, moving your hand back and forth from side to side and slowly moving it upward to the ceiling. If the nest is in fact located in the wall you should feel the warmth of the cluster as warmer than the rest of the wall area. Then you have the option to open the inside wall or the outside wall to transfer out the comb and bees when weather permits. If you feel that would be too much involvement opening, transfering and closing, then try the trap out method posted above. I have been doing structural, bee colony removal for many many years now and find it rewarding both in live stock (bees) and income.
Walt

[fuzzybeekeeper]

First...I have used the funnel method to remove a nest from a wall before. The hive you place near the funnel needs to be less than 6 feet away from the original entrance. I leaned a ladder against the house and hoisted the two-deep hive up with ropes using pullys hung on one of the rungs of the ladder. After 6 weeks when I untied the ropes, the hive was so heavy that it almost pulled me off the ground. I don't know if you can do this at 20 feet, but it worked at 10 feet.

Second...the queen does not come out. You must put a fully functional hive WITH A QUEEN near the entrance. The queen in the wall will eventually die when there are no more bees to take care of her. All you are doing is transfering the worker bees to your hive.

Third...after there are no more bees exiting the funnel for a week, you assume that everything inside the wall is dead and you can remove the funnel. You can leave your hive where it is and the bees in your hive will rob out the honey in the wall. You better have several supers ready to add or trade out on your hive because they will try to remove all the honey in the wall.

If you must open up the wall to remove the "mess", you can do it after the bees have removed the honey and you have removed your hive. Presto...NO MORE BEES! It's much easier to work once the bees are no longer in the comb.

[DANIEL QUINCE]

Woo, I didn’t realized this is a real industry. Thank you all. It looks like I’ll never stop learning on this forum. I am in Michigan, this morning there were 22 deg. F. I guess my next question is about timing. When is the best time to do this? I only have 2 hives and I’ll get another 2 or 3 packages in April. Should I use one of my hives or should I wait for packages and use one of them?
Also, turns out the entrance is actually at the bottom of the upstairs window, so is more likely 12 ft high. Apparently they never made it inside the house. I’ll drive there this week to take a look. I’m pretty exited about this.
Thank you again.
Daniel

[iddee]

One thing I will disagree with. All the ones I did last summer, and many hives I have had in the past, when the stores run out, the queen WILL come out. Some went into to box when it was a fresh hive and the stores ran out within a week or so. Others took the remaining bees and absconded. All came out.

Secondly, I do not start with a queen in the catch box, just in case she does come out. I start with a frame containing eggs, but no bees.
I have found that the returning bees will enter the box and care for the brood soon enough to keep them from chilling if the weather is warm when it is done. If the queen absconds, the bees in the box will raise a queen from the hatching eggs.

You will want to start when the normal daytime high is above 60 F, and the nights are above 40 F.

[Bill Ruble]

One point I have not read on here that I wonder about. why can't you use the product that drives bees from there suppers when you collect the honey in the fall? I forgot what it is called but I think Bee gone or something similar. That way, seems like you might even drive out the queen.

Bill

[DANIEL QUINCE]

Yes, and build a tunnel between the old entrance and the hive long enough so the fumes won't get in the hive. Hmmm. Would they all leave the brood behind? And how much of that stuff to use? And what if they move somewhere else in the wall? I only know what I've seen on this forum, but my feeling is that you can't really do this by force and save the bees. The "cone" solution kind of let them make or at least feel like they make the decision. What about actually connecting the cone to the hive and still provide a way out of the hive, a second entrance. That way you don't rely on them finding the hive. It will look like a transit stop they can't leave.

[Kieck]

I've had good luck cutting bees out of walls and transfering them into Langstroth hives. They seem to accept that sort of forced move pretty easily. Of course, I generally have to either put siding back on or patch sheetrock/lath-and-plaster when I've finished cutting out the bees.

[iddee]

As some of the first posts said, you can have a very big mess in the house with honey and scavengers if you aren't careful. Trapping them naturally uses up the honey stores and the plain wax doesn't leave a big mess. Forcing them out with chemicals would cause them to leave the honey if it did force them out. I doubt if it would cause the nurse bees to leave the brood, tho, and would probably just add to your troubles.

[DANIEL QUINCE]

Forget the chemicals. Why can't I extend the cone all the way into the hive? I understand that the end of the cone needs to point up. What's the logic behind that? Can I pop a hole in the hive bottom board and bring the cone to it?

[iddee]

My cone only rises about an inch, which I got by bending in the wire on the top about a half inch. It is just easier to set the hive entrance a couple inches from the base of the funnel. They do not go in the box when leaving the hive, but rather when returning to it and finding the entrance blocked.

[Bill Ruble]

My idea of using the chemicals was of course connected with the next idea of using other bees to rob out the honey after forcing out the colony. I still think it would work because I read that if you use to much of it to drive out the bees from the suppers, they whole colony would go outside the hive and just hang there. Exactly what you would want.

The only objection I can think of would be the possiblity of lingering smell of the chemical. Which would not be a problem out in a bee tree somewhere.

[Michael Bush]

>Forget the chemicals. Why can't I extend the cone all the way into the hive? I understand that the end of the cone needs to point up. What's the logic behind that?

Bees tend to fly up when they can't find their way out. Dead bees tend to fall down. If the cone faced down you'd have more dead bees clogging the exit and less bees finding the exit.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I had a customer last year that had bees in his deck over the patio. The deck was enclosed underneith as a cieling for the patio.

They baulked at the extraction price and the repairs that would have to be made and called another beekeeper who advised they put mothballs in the cieling/deck. All the bees absconded in short order. I expect another call next spring when a swarm finds the old hive and wax.

The cone method works eventully if all goes well. The hive will use most of it's resources raising the brood as none is coming in. The nurse bees will age and start foraging and will not return and soon there are no bees left to care for the queen. The most important thing is to keep good track of the exit hole to make sure it does not get blocked. I had one get blocked last year on a 100 plus day and the entire hive died. What a stink, the cone was packed with rotting dead bees. :(

[Michael Bush]

To me, the big problem with the cone method is that it takes several (sometimes many) trips and a lot of babying. If this is on your way home from work, it's no big deal. If you have to drive 60 miles or more to get there, it's not worth the trouble. Then the circling confused bees usually freak out the humans, who mistake confusion for anger, and they spray the bees with some pesticide and I've wasted all my time.

[DANIEL QUINCE]

A trip will add 30 mi to my commute. However, I'd like to do this as a learning experience. They won't spray them. They volunteer for the humane society; they have all kinds of pets, including baboons. And I can clarify all the issues with them with no problem. After all, he's my subordinate.
I would also like to start catching swarms. Behind my 10 acres is a gentleman that has 30 acres used just for hunting. On the other side in the summer time they bring 50 or more hives from down south (Florida and Georgia) for the farms around. I assume they will be some swarms around and I can place some traps on my neighbor property. How far from the original hive do they travel when they swarm? I’ll need to learn how to build and what to use for a trap. I can use any help that I can get. I am in a sponge mode.
Thanks
Daniel

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>How far from the original hive do they travel when they swarm?

They try to get out of the forraging area of the parent colony. Traps are most effective a good distance from the parent colony, 1/2 mile to 1 1/2 mile away.