Lew Best,: State Inspector is looking for you

[Ronnie Elliott]

I returned a call to a State of Texas Inspector tonight. A list with our names had been presented to be investigated. He wanted to know if we were using chemicals to extract bees from houses. After I explained we were just hobby beekeepers looking for a free hive to be moved to our personal apiaries, and a bonus of some free honey. The only chemicals we use are for maybe cockroaches, and a yellow jacket nest on the front porch. He said he would call you, to get your reply, but I would probably never hear from him again. He just wanted to know if we were encroaching on the licensed pest control exterminators.

[BjornBee]

Reminds me of a few years back when as part of a promotional/marketing idea for a company I managed, we passed out free will kits to seniors. We were contacted by the local lawyer group and advised to stop. If we did anything more than hand one out, like saying how to fill it out or what to do with it, that we could be assuming the role of legal council. It wasn't like anyone couldn't go into a bookstore and buy a will kit that included instructions. I guess they didn't like us telling people that going to a lawyer was not needed.

I wonder who is collecting names of beekeepers?? Is there a beekeeper in your area that also runs a certified/licensed extermination business?

[Ross]

Texas does have a law on the books that says you can't remove bees from an inhabitable building without a pest license. They include mechanical and chemical (including smoke) means. The only way it gets enforced is by someone, usually an exterminator, turning you in. Just another one of the many special interest groups that run our state government down here.

Texas Bee Law overview (maybe somewhat out of date)
http://www.burger.com/beelaw.htm

More current
http://honeybee.tamu.edu/regulatory/pdf/fy2004_apiary_inspection_report.pdf

Texas Agriculture Code, Chapter 131. Bees and Honey
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/ag.toc.htm

[ December 22, 2005, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Ross ]

[janvanhamont]

Let my clarify some points. The "little Red Book" available from the Structural Pest Control Board in Austin states that beekeepers cannot remove bees from a dwelling unless they have the pesticide license and carry a hefty insurance. They can remove bees from a tree. In both cases no fee can be charged. No mecanical or electrical devices can be used. This means things like high pressure injection devices as such other mechanical devices. It is my opinion that devices used in beekeeping such as smokers, blowers and vacuum cleaners can be used.
Using pesticides which are available over the counter cannot be used on any removal job, being it bees, wasps or cockcroaches, at others peoples properties.
Usualy it is other beekeepers in the area, area here is vague as some work with an 800 number, who have the pesticide license who turn you in. They want to have a monopoly on the fees they charge.
You will not hear from the inspector again but you will hear from the Pesticide Board in due time.
Do not be surprised that entrapment is used by these unscrupulous individuals.
There is irony in all this because a pesticide controller who does want to touch bees or is afraid of the liability, when he kills bees in a ceiling and the honey starts coming through the ceiling, can and will ask a beekeeper to do the job for him, license or no license.
The TBA officials were asleep when the pesticide laws were written.

[Kieck]

Does the Texas law against removing bees from an inhabitable building include anything about monetary compensation? I understand some places prohibit charging for removal services unless the person removing the bees has a pest license. In those places, simply removing the bees for the bees (taking them for a hive) does not constitute a pest-control violation. The key issue is the money. Any idea if something similar might be true in Texas?

[Kieck]

Just thought of something else: what if you remove bees (or any other insects) from your own house? Do you technically need a pest control license for stomping on ants in your kitchen?

[janvanhamont]

No monetary compensation can be asked for removing bees if you do not have the pesticide controllers license.
You can remove any insects from your own house with available over the counter insecticides, but stomping on ants in your kitchen will not eliminate these pest, they will keep on coming.

[iddee]

What if you gave the homeowner $1.00 for the bees, honey, and comb and had him write out a bill of sale. Could you not take your bees, which you purchased, home with you, whatever the manner in which it was done?

[janvanhamont]

Regarding the unhabitable building, the way the law reads is as follows:
a) must be registered with the chief apiary inspector and the board (which board is not clear to me)
b) does not use pesticides or electrical divices other than smokers or other equipment defined by the agricultural code
c) collets, removes , or destroys honey bees not attached to a dwelling or structure occupied by the public

About the mentioned loophole refered to by Iddee, one has to more clever than the inspector and must not be on the list of the beekeeper who has the license.
Now for these beekeepers who have the pesticide license, it is for them perfectly normal to have a beekeeper who has no pesticide license to do the bee removal for them, provide them even with pesticides he can normally not get and pay him 1/10th of what he charges the customer. I mentioned in another mail that we are dealing with unscrupulous people.
There is one loophole in this law: in case of emergency you can remove bees from anywhere. About charging for it is a question I do not have an answer for.

[Kieck]

How difficult is it to obtain a pest control license in Texas? Is it expensive? Is the test or course you have to take very time-consuming or difficult? If it's not too hard, it might pay off to get your license even if you want to remove only a single hive. In SD, the applicator's license is about $50, which is less than the cost of an average package of bees, and the test is "study-material aided" (what I call "open-book").

[Ronnie Elliott]

Lew Best, myself, and others in the state of Texas have put our names on a list for bee removals. I think Lew's add reads that he will go 25-miles for free. Mine reads that I will rid you of your bee problem for a fee. That's where the kicker was. Someone found this web site, and wanted an inspector to look in to it. I started in October, just before hurricane Rita, when I set the bait hive up. It was December before I found out the woman's insurance would not cover her damages, nor would they write her a policy till the problem was taken care of. She was also a widow. I told her that I wouldn't charge for my services under those circumstances. I have decided after this case, which was this month, December, that it is not worth the time, or effort. I got 9-pints of honey, most of the bees died. The rest flew off somewhere. I did not get one bee, even though the frame feeder was in place. They did empty the feeder once, but cold weather set in. It is a lot easier to just buy packages, to be picked up April 1.

[Ronnie Elliott]

I think better timing, maybe starting in March, running through October. Here in Texas would be the best times to do cutous, and swarm removals. Past those dates, IMO is only for the money. The money is nice, but in my case I want the bees.

[Ross]

Remember, swarm removal is still legal, as long as they aren't "in" the building.

[George Fergusson]

>not attached to a dwelling or structure occupied by the public

Is a private residence/barn/shed a "structure occupied by the public"?

[tecumseh]

jonkieckeifer sezs:
The key issue is the money. Any idea if something similar might be true in Texas?

tecumseh replies:
yea it is typically always about the money in some form or fashion. and to my limited understanding a licenses typically cost about $2500 per year (if someone needed an exact number I could check with a friend who runs a business here locally).

sure warms the heart to discover that them 'free market' republicans have decided once again to keep their fingers out of my business, but it does make you wonder how many free golfing trips to Ireland were required to get the kind of legislation that someone wanted?

[NorthALABeeKeep]

tecumseh writes:
but it makes you wonder how many free golf trips to Ireland were required ....

If you keep telling the truth somebody somewhere is bound to coming looking for you and probably figure out you own more taxes than you a currently paying. I like to read your replies.

[Kieck]

Wow! $2500 per year?!? I didn't imagine it would be that high. You'd have to do a lot of removals before the costs of package bees would equal that! ;)

Maybe the key is the "structure occupied by the public" part. For example, as a member of the public, I occupy my house, but the general public does not occupy my house. tongue.gif

[Brent Bean]

It’s not a problem here in Michigan they got rid of our state inspector, however we still have a lot of lawyers here, no insult intended to all you lawyers out there.

[wayacoyote]

I don't think that the problem is in the inspector. I think it is in the laws that limit home and property owners from making decisions for themselves and laws that cater to special interest groups.
Waya

(added) I guess Big Brother needed something else to use the department of Homeland security for.

[ December 23, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]

[NW IN Beekeeper]

Brent -

Do your lawyers do inspections for mites or pests? or is that a little too much like cann-of-bullism or something? - had to get one shot in at 'em.

Jeff

[iddee]

95% of my calls come from pest control companies. If I were in Texas, I think I would simply say I'm doing it for Acme Exterminators,
or whatever the name might be.

[Ronnie Elliott]

**** Lawyers, that's what got this whole country in the shape that it is in. When McDonalds got sued for the coffee being to hot, and spilled in someone’s lap. TV ads claiming, "One call that all". Hobby beekeepers wanting a free bee, and will take the honey, and all the wax to keep the rats, and bugs from entering a home, that the exterminators won't touch. I think America is waking up to all this, and have had enough of high prices across the board, because of the **** greedy lawyers. I have several friends that are lawyers, judges, and politicians. Like everyone else, please don't forward this message to any of them.

[Lew Best]

I've been away from this forum for the last coupla days. Haven't heard from the inspector yet. Had quite lengthy discussions with both one of the the apiary inspectiors and the pest control folks (structural pest control or something similar?) and was given the laws; upon asking for clarification the way it was described to me I'm only allowed to use a smoker on inhabited structures & am not allowed to charge. If I remove bees from a tree, etc. I can use a bee vac. I asked about getting the license & it involved a bunch of fees, tests, business insurance, etc. & when he started mentioning the fees a quick "head calculation" told me to forget it; just do them for free or if too far away forget them. I had no desire to charge to do removals/swarms until fuel prices shot up so high. IOW I paid 64 bux for a package last spring; if I can get bees & maybe a little honey for 3-4 hours work (plus possibly some already regressed bees with survival genetics) I'll take all I can get unless the fuel cost gets high (get bout 23-24mpg in my truck so a few miles is negligable diesel). Now if I have to go 30-40 miles each way it starts to add up so can't do them free. BTW most of the removal calls I got this year were from a pest control operator; once I went & looked at some & they were probably africanized; MEAN! Told him I wasn't interested. He borrowed my jacket/veil to go poison them. He paid me for coming out. Maybe I can just get him to pay me to "work for him" and that would be legal? Plan to talk to him about it next time I hear from him or in the early spring; whichever comes first.

Lew

[Lew Best]

Here's the info from the Structural pest control board:

"§ 1951.056. BEEKEEPERS. (a) Except as provided by
Sections 1951.212 and 1951.457(c), this chapter does not apply to a
person acting as a beekeeper, as defined by Section 131.001,
Agriculture Code, who:
(1) is registered with the board and with the chief
apiary inspector as provided by Subchapter C, Chapter 131,
Agriculture Code;
(2) does not use pesticides or electrical devices
other than conventional bee smokers or equipment as defined by
Section 131.001, Agriculture Code; and
(3) collects, removes, or destroys honey bees not
attached to a dwelling or structure occupied by the public.
(b) A person described by Subsection (a) is not considered
to be engaged in the business of structural pest control.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1421, § 4, eff. June 1, 2003."

For the entire regulations of the structural pest cntrol board go to:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/OC/content/htm/oc.012.00.001951.00.htm

Lew

[George Fergusson]

>too much like cann-of-bullism

I'll be laughing over that for the rest of the day. Thanks smile.gif

>**** Lawyers, that's what got this whole country in the shape that it is in.

Sigh. I share your general attitude of contempt towards lawyers, and I wish I could agree with you Ronnie, but I can't blame lawyers for our mess. We brought this situation on ourselves. We've become a litigious society obsessed with laws, rules, and regulations. In any escalating conflict, the proliferation of weapons (lawyers in this case) is inevitable. Early on, had people stopped suing each other, lawyers would have assumed their proper place in society, but it's too late for that now. Lawyers proliferated in response to a need and because conditions were favorable.

In this particular situation (pest control laws and bee-removals) it's clear that the politicians that make the laws and the lawyers that interpret them have been busy doing what they do best: feathering their nests in the guise of protecting the public.

>please don't forward this message to any of them.

Hehe.. My father who was a spy during world war II and for some time afterwards worked for the NSA as a data communications specialist, among other things, used to tell me, "Son, never say anything on a telephone or radio (he was a ham) or in the presence of people you wouldn't trust with your life, or put anything in writing, that you wouldn't want to have repeated back to you on a witness stand." It was good advice 40 years ago, and it is still good advice today.

George-

[Michael Bush]

>Maybe I can just get him to pay me to "work for him" and that would be legal?

That is the way licensing works for most things in most states. The plumber who comes out to work on your plumbing, likely had no license. The plumber who owns the plumbing company does. It's just a monopoly. It's the inspectors who make sure the work is correct (in theory).

[Ross]

Lew, I think you're ok working for an exterminator, but make sure his liability covers you.

[Jim Fischer]

> He wanted to know if we were using chemicals to
> extract bees from houses.

Well, quite a few people have mentioned using
Bee-Quick in removals, both in these forums
and in e-mails. One could say that it was "a
chemical", as it comes in a bottle.

But not to worry, such use is clearly allowed
under the existing Texas law.

The reference to Section 131.001 of the
agricultural code in the "beekeeper exception"
defined in Section 1951.056 of the Texas code
says:


"'Equipment' means hives, supers, frames, veils,
gloves, tools, machines, or other devices for the
handling and manipulation of bees, honey, pollen,
wax, or hives, including, storage or transporting
containers for pollen, honey, or wax, or other
apiary supplies used in the operation of an
apiary or honey house."
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/AG/content/htm/ag.006.00.000131.00.htm

From this, it is clear that the intent of the
regulation was to limit Texas beekeepers to the
use of "apiary supplies", rather than
"pesticides", for which a pesticide license
must be obtained.

So, if someone wants to use Bee-Quick (http://bee-quick.com) in a
bee removal from a structure, the law clearly
allows this, as it is available only from
apiary supply houses. Even though "Bee-Go"
clearly is a pesticide, the same goes for
"Bee-Go", and the other formulations of
butyric anhydride, but I doubt anyone would
be dumb enough to try to use butyric in
the walls of any house not scheduled for
immediate demolition. smile.gif

Who's the inspector that called?
I should drop him a note, as I don't want any
beekeepers being intimidated by a question that
should have been worded "Are you using any
PESTICIDE chemicals in bee removals".

[Lew Best]

This is where it gets so complex; dealing with 2 separate agencies (apiary inspection & structural pest control). According to structural pest control bee vacs (imho normal beekeeping equipment) are a "no-no" on an "inhabited building." He considered a barn in a rural area a "grey area"; wouldn't commit as to whether considering it inhabited or not. One of my removals was from an abandoned barn but the guy's cow water trough was next to it & the cows wouldn't come to the waterer because of the bees in the barn wall. According to my understanding I can charge & use the bee vac if bees in a tree in the pasture but if I use it for an "inhabited structure" I can't charge.

Lew

just wishing for control by only one agency with regulations in "simple English!"

[BeeCatcher]

here is another way that they will try to get you, i had one of the licened beeremovers wife call me asking me to remove some bees from her house and how much i charged, i told her a small charge because of the miles i would haft to drive, the she ask if i had a licens. i said no and boy she jumped all over me. "the next thing" i get a call from the "state comptroler" wanting his share of the money. then out comes a inspecter from the "state pest control". checks me out, says everything is ok. next state comp. guy calls again wanting his share again. long story short, if there in a house i won't do it, i will only do trees, water meters and such.

[Lew Best]

By "licensed bee remover" do you mean a pest control company? Also curious what the state comptroller had to do with it. Do you need a sales tax permit? I have one of those permits & am registered with the State Apiary Inspection office in College Station.

Lew

[Ross]

Services are taxable in Texas. So yes, the State Comptroller wants a cut at the rate charged in that locality.

[Lew Best]

What Next!

Lew

[Man O' War]

As I have always said, It's all about the money!

I'm also listed with Lew and others for bee
removals in my area of Texas, but my ad reads "swarms only,
no established nests" (I'm paraphrasing here).

IMO saving the price of a package is not worth breaking the law over.
I always try to abide by the law, even if there are some put on the
books that I don't agree with.

As far as holding a license in Texas to do any
type of public service goes, the state has now
forced everyone to have insurance for liability.
If you work for someone else, they pay the
premium, if you are self employed, you can only
operate (legaly)if you can get the minimum coverage
the state requires for your type of service.

Try making freinds with a small pest control
company. They can hire you as a honeybee
specialist and pay you for your removal.
You get to keep the bees and get compensation
for your time. (there is however the drawback
of the additional income to report) I darn
sure don't want trouble with those IRS boys!

Most guys I know in the PC business are like
most people, they don't like bees and are glad
to let you help them out. You work under their
insurance so there are no risks for the bkpr
and you stay within the law.

[Lew Best]

I have no problem reporting the income; if I report the income I can deduct expenses so no big deal. I've always reported "extra income" such as my Ebay sales, etc. anyway. I thought we had 2 agencies to pacify but now it turns out to bee 4; Apiary inspection, structural pest control, comptroller & health department. I think I'll just stick with local removals (within 10-15 miles or so?) and swarms this year; that way I'll have no reason to charge. Maybe by next year (2007) I can just do splits & swarms & get out of the whole removal mess (as much as I enjoy doing the removals).

Lew

[ December 25, 2005, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Lew Best ]

[Lew Best]

UPDATE

Talked to the inspector today; wasn't the apiary inspection department as expected but the structural pest control agency. He was quite nice; said he'd been given a list of names to contact from "higher up." Just needed to be sure that I wasn't using pesticides without a license, wasn't using anything other than a smoker (as in no pesticides OR bee vac) and wasn't charging for the services. This applies only to "inhabited structures" as that's all their jurisdiction covers. Uninhabited structures (hollow trees, farm out buildings, etc.) do not come under their jurisdiction so bee vacs are allowed there & we are allowed to charge.

Lew

[Walt McBride]

Lew Best, What is their hang up about a bee vac being used? I am realy glad I live in California.
Walt

[ December 28, 2005, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Walt McBride ]

[Lew Best]

Hey Walt

I asked the same question; he said he didn't understand it either; "just the law he has to enforce" & would require an act of the legislature (which meets only every two years; not again until 2007) to change it. :(

Lew