Any one out there dip? :)

[Dan Williamson]

Well, I know some of you dip already.

For those of you who hot dip their woodenware, what suggestions would you give someone who is working on getting something set up? I will only have 30 hives next season with the idea of building up to 100 in a couple of years and then taking a good look at whether I feel that it would be profitable to expand.

With that in mind I'd love to hear some suggestions. Do's and Don'ts! Tank sizes? Dip assembled or unassembled? Dipping ingredients? Paraffin, resin, copper naphanate, etc? How hot? etc...

You get the point. I'm just trying to get the lowdown from current dippers smile.gif before I get started. I'd hate to make the same mistakes others have learned from if I can avoid them from the get go.

Thanks a ton in advance!!

[ October 28, 2005, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: dtwilliamson ]

[tecumseh]

good questions dt... and I would be interested in the same kind of question.... seems like we are in the same boat as far as future plans are concerned...

I guess you should have worded your title "anybody out there dip?" perhaps that would have gotten you some positive response, or at least the image of a big chaw stain dribbling down the side of some bee keepers truck.

[Dan Williamson]

tecumseh,

Your wish is my command!!! ;)

[jean-marc]

DT:

I have dipped in the past now my equipment supplier sells the equipment dipped.

Use a paraffin with the highest flash point, about 400 F.
Mix about 1 part rosen with 2 parts paraffin.
Heat the mix to 325 F.
Submerge equipment for about 3-5 minutes until it is good and deep fried ( the water boils out of the wood)
Remove equipment and let it cool about 10 minutes.
Dip same piece of equipment for about 30 seconds.
(this will get a good topcoat on the equipment as the first coat has a tendency to get sucked into the wood as it cools).

I heat my tank with 1 or 2 tiger torches.
It is large, enough for a pallet with plenty of room to spare.
You might want to try a barrel. You'll need a skirting aound the bottom where you stand, get kinda hot down there.
You'll need to be able to channel the excess paraffin rosen mix back into the tank and not on the side of the barrel nor on the ground. (this is very important for obvious reasons.
Wear a respirator and safety gear.
Make sure you have a way to put out the fire should your mix flash.
Do this oudoors with plenty of ventilation.

Perhaps you can offer your dipping services to another beekeeper in exchange for access to his dipping tank, just so you get experience before making any capital expenses.

Jean-Marc

[Michael Bush]

I haven't dipped hives in anything, but I've dipped a lot of other things in a lot of other situations including PermaComb in Beeswax, so I'll make an observation.

A lot of the investment is the amount of parafin/gum it takes to fill the tank. Having a tank of the appropriate dimensions to make good use of that will save having to buy (and melt) as much parafin when you want to dip. In other words, if I were dipping 10 frame mediums I'd probably want a tank that is tall enough for three boxes and some room so it doesn't overflow or slosh over the side (probably about 28" or more, too much HIEGHT doesn't have to be filled) and the size of a box (with only a little room because it DOES have to be filled) so that would be about 21 1/2" by 17". Then you can stack two boxes inside (on their end) so the tank would hold five boxes without a lot of excess space. I'd also make a permanant fill line of how much it should be filled to cover all three boxes high without overflowing when filled with boxes, including a some sloshing (waves).

Ideal, from the point of view of no wasted volume to fill, would probably be to have a welder make the box exactly what you want for size.

[franc]

I don't know if it would be a good idea to dip woodware in wax/paraffin. Id be worried that the wood wouldn't be able to breath.Maybe just coating one side would work out.

[jean-marc]

I do not think the wood has to breathe. The moisture is boiled out of the wood (looks exactly like deep frying) and the paraffin/rosen mix fills the pores (cellulose?) of the wood. I woukd recommend this procedure, especially in areas with a lot of rain. Apparently some Australians have used the procedure and equipment that is 30+ years old is still sound. I do not care to paint and this is a better procedure in my opinion.

Jean-Marc

[Michael Bush]

You paint the outside and then the bees coat the inside with propolis. How does it breath?

[splash]

As for the wood breathing, breathing is in reference to the amount of moisture wood absorbs or releases, this is why furniture and other fine woods are treated with somthing {oil, wax, paint, ect}to slow down the deteration rate of the cellulose. These actions are used to prevent the wood from rotting.

[BjornBee]

Not sure if 30 years is good or not. I have seen 30 year old hives not painted, painted, and dipped. I think not letting dead-outs sit around over the winter exposed, elevating hives, good site selection and other things make boxes last just as long as wood prep. I know I have some boxes 40-50 years and older that are still good. Never dipped.

I like the idea of dipping. But it seems I break out the old paint brush as time permits. Not sure if convenience cost and time would benefit over the ease of just painting. For me too have to change from painting, cost savings, labor and a whole lot more years added onto the life expectance of my woodenware would be needed. By that time 30 years down the road, I'm not sure if I'll care, or if I'll remember if I dipped or painted.

I did dip when I played ball. I also (skinny)dipped when I had girlfriends instead of the wife I now have. Boy things change....... I guess you could say I traded two dips for a big dip. :rolleyes:

[ October 29, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]

[Michael Bush]

I agree. I have some boxes that are 31 years old that I bought new and they are still in use. I can't remember for sure if they are painted with oil base or latex, but I think it was latex. But it was just regular house paint at the time.

[Dan Williamson]

I've talked to a welder and he is going to price out what it would cost to make me a tank. I haven't heard too many negatives to dipping woodenware. I just hate to paint as it seems to take me alot of time. I think dimensions of the tank are key as you said MB. Getting the most efficient size for my size operation while eliminating excess paraffin etc that I would have to heat.

[heartbeat]

the only neg. i've heard on parrifin dipping are initial cost and the wood turning black over time. turning black probably wouldnt affect you unless you decide to go south.
good luck
martin

[Robert Hawkins]

I heard that. tongue.gif

Hawk

[Dan Williamson]

Black doesn't bother me a bit. I paint all my boxes dark brown as it is. I actually was hoping that the boxes would darken some rather than just being natural wood colors.

Anyone know if its better to dip assembled or do it unassembled?

[Michael Bush]

>Anyone know if its better to dip assembled or do it unassembled?

Do you like to glue them? Then do it after you assemble them. If you don't then you can fit more in if you do it before. But my guess is the boxes will be easier to handle assembled than trying to fish out the unassembled boards from a vat of hot wax.

[Dave W]

Greetings . . .

Ive been thinking . . .
that usually gets me into trouble smile.gif

For "small-scale" dipping, how about using a tank about 20" long x 10" wide x about 2-4" deep.

Any size (upto 9-1/8" deeps) super could be dipped one-side-at-a-time. Doing so would coat each corner twice - a good thing! Joints of exposed grain are usually a problem, right?

A large tank (made for stacking 3 or so supers) full of hot wax sounds like a BIG problem, to me smile.gif

Ill stop thinking now smile.gif

[Dan Williamson]

>>how about using a tank about 20" long x 10" wide x about 2-4" deep.

>>A large tank (made for stacking 3 or so supers) full of hot wax sounds like a BIG problem, to me

well I'm thinking of a little larger tank that can handle 3 meds on end all at one time- I'm thinking of 24"x20"x24 (LxWxH). I'll also be able to put in covers, bottom boards etc. Still waiting for a price from a guy on what it would run. I don't have any idea what something like that would cost.

[Michael Bush]

Fours sides per box. Ten minutes to soak on each side. Twice, by most accounts. That's 80 minutes per box. If I went that way I should be done about 10 years after I die of old age. smile.gif

[Dan Williamson]

>>That's 80 minutes per box.

And I'm gonna have 100boxes min to run thru the first time. 8000 minutes is a long time. 5 1/2 days working around the clock would prompt me to pick up my paint brush again!!! ;)

[Morris]

Does anyone know of a source for the rosin?

[Dan Williamson]

Here's a msg I got from Bullseye Bill on the resin:

Hi Dan,
I called the order in, (510-549-3535) and asked for gum rosin. The invoice has it listed as;
WW GUM ROSIN; BRAZILIAN
55.12 @ .85 = 46.85
handling fee 1.42
freight 28.23
total = 76.50
76.50 div 50 = 1.53 per lb delivered

That beats Mann Lake's price of 1.69 per lb plus shipping.

[ November 02, 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: dtwilliamson ]

[warrior]

Has anyone ever tried linseed oil? I'm curious as I have been told of an antebellum mansion here in the state that had an original roof of cypress shakes boiled in linseed oil (double dipped according to the tale) that managed to hold the house together for nearly a century. The story was that when new owners went to restore after over a decade of sitting empty they were surprised at the lack of water damage and realized that the original shake roof was still in place and intact. Futher research turned up a family tale of the shakes being boiled in linseed oil prior to installation. Not sure of the veracity of the story but it does stand to reason that there would be some protection. Anyone tried it?

[Robert Hawkins]

I have used linseed oil on the wooden parts of my rifle. Worked great and i would consider using it on hives if it's less expensive. I haven't bought any in years.

Hawk

[Michael Bush]

I haven't boiled the hives in linseed oil. I have put boiled linseed oil on them. The linseed oil soaks into the wood. It has some kind of chemical change with the cellulose, as evidenced by cotton rags soaked in it getting hot enough to spontaneously combust and the wood getting warm from it. The wood will still turn gray eventually but it seems to soak up less water if you get the end grain soaked up with linseed oil.

[power napper]

My father had a hunting camp in northern Pennsylvania that had an exterior of wood siding that had an appearance of logs. Every couple of years we had to paint the siding with boiled linseed oil and burnt umber. The burnt umber made the linseed oil a dark stain. If my memory serves me correctly he thinned it with turpentine. I hated the job but loved the camp.Never thought about trying the mixture on bee boxes!

[NW IN Beekeeper]

Linseed oil vs. Boiled Linseed Oil

Boiled Linseed oil is called such because the oil is heated to mix in drying agents (jap dry). This causes the oil to cure faster (days instead of months). The downside is that the drying agents contribute more chemicals to your hives.

Linseed oil is flax seed oil. It does take several months to truely cure. Linseed oil does not contain the drying agents that boiled linseed oild does.

I suppose that linseed oil could be heated and items dipped, this could drive more moisture content out of the wood and further aid in preventing rot.

Jeff

[Aspera]

Common (and beautiful) variations of this finish also include turpentine and beeswax. My brother frames his paintings with wood prepared this way. Black walnut husks also make for a dark aromatic wood stain. It also helps to keep bugs off the wood, so I don't know what the bees would think of it.

[Michael Bush]

>I suppose that linseed oil could be heated and items dipped, this could drive more moisture content out of the wood and further aid in preventing rot.

Just make sure you take into account the flashpoint of linseed oil.

[Aspera]

I think that the key is to have the wood warm when applying the oil. Otherwise it just doesn't seem to work its magic. I geuss warmed oil could also heat up the wood pretty quickly

[MikeGillmore]

DT,
I buy my supplies locally here in Ohio from Queen Right Colonies. They have been dipping woodenware for several years now, not just for new woodenware protection, but also as a treatment for AFB spores on boxes. This process has been monitored by county and state inspectors and so far has been 100% effective in killing all AFB spores on contaminated boxes - ( another source of revenue to offset your investment ). The price for treatment is much less than the cost of burning your old boxes and buying new ones, and safer then just torching them. I'm not sure where you are located but if you are not in Ohio, where you would be a potential competitive threat, I'm sure they would be more than happy to fill you in on how they got started and what it takes to start up and maintain this kind of operation. They are real nice folks. If you are interested contact.....

Queen Right Colonies
Densil StClair
43655 State RT 162
Spencer, OH 44275
440-647-2602

[guatebee]

A couple of doubts for those who have dipped:
Is regular wood glue OK on the joints if they will become waterproof by dipping?

Will glued joints not weaken under very hot paraffin exposure?

Have you kept temperature eye-metered, or is it necessary to have a thermometer/thermostat device? What are the clues to watch for to keep the right temperature?

Is dipping with paraffin/resin a one time deal?

Thanks for helping out. I am preparing to put out 10,000 new, 3 story hives next year in tropical Guatemala as part of the Stan storm reconstruction effort. The wood will have to be pine, which will not last more than 2 years if untreated. Mexicans treat and their wood seems to last quite longer. Have not succeeded locating Mexican info source on this.

[ December 23, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: guatebee ]