Ventilation

[BoBee]

In "Beekeeping for Dummies" the author suggests using popsicle sticks as spacers on the bottom side of the inner cover so as to provide a gap of about 1/16" all around for ventilation. My local beekeeping guru thinks that the spacers might better be placed on the upper side of the inner cover. What do you all think? A gap around the underside of the inner cover or around the upper side?

[BILLY BOB]

The spacers on the bottom side of inner cover will give you more ventilation. If you put them between the inner cover and the outer cover the air will have to go through the hole in the inner cover. I would think more air would be able to flow through the bottom space of the inner cover. It depends on how much ventilation you want.

BB

[Dave W]

Greetings BoBee,

Welcome to beesource.com

I read and followed the same info in BFD. I also added #12x1/2 sheet metal screw in each corner of my top-cover (heads used as spacer). I have ventilation above and below my inner-cover. When the bees REALLY started bring in propolis, they tried to fill (close-off) the gap created between the IC and super. Maybe they dont want extra ventilation, I dont know.

[Daisy]

Hi Dave W, I can relate to this.

I've decided not to worry about ventilation this winter. I didn't create a ventilation last winter.

I'm just placing natural fabric on the top rack. Over a bag of sugar. Over spacers.

[Daisy]

Opps, Sorry I forgot to welcome Bobee

Welcome Bobee. "wave"

[Bill_newbee]

I have read a lot of different thoughts related to hive ventilation, and since I just set (4) active hives at my place here Saturday, and since three of four of the hives are low in honey already, I am wondering what I can do besides feeding them to help them get through the winter.

Here are some thoughts I have related to insulating hives....

First note...I am a registered professional electrical engineer by trade, I design building electrical systems, and work closely with mechanical engineers, those guys and gals who design heating and ventilating systems for buildings. I would like to think that in the past 15 years I have gleaned a few things from these professionals about mechanical systems design...so the following is, although not in my direct field of expertise, is closely related, and I believe an accurate assessment.

I believe we can compare hives favorably with human occupied structures, to better understand what's going on related to humidity, condensation, ventilation and heat retention. You have a mostly enclosed space, maintained at a higher temp than the outdoors, and interior occupants generating both moisture and heat.
It is understood we "build in" a certain amount of natural ventilation, when buildings are designed, (codes specifically state the amounts of required air changes required per hour in order to accomplish this goal) which passes through building materials such as drywall, window frames, batten insulation, etc., and the ventilation is aided by door and window openings...have a "too tight house" or improperly designed ventilation system, and you get some of the things you may have seen in the news, such as explosions of mold, condensation dripping from the ceilings and walls, and other air quality problems. Just this past year, my firm provided an engineering analysis on a brand new doctor's office, located just a mile from my home, which turned into a big moldy mess within 2 months of completion - the cause? Improperly designed air conditioning systems, designed by the contractors without proper experience or training, oversized such that they would cool the spaces so fast, that there was inadequate time to remove the moisture in the spring and summer. This is a common mistake in HVAC design, by the way, and a good example of where too much of a good thing is really bad. But I digress...

Also the reader is likely aware that the warmer a space is, the more moisture that air can hold before condensing out into visible moisture. Therefore, for the same amount of moisture, heating a space to a higher temp raises the temperature higher above the dewpoint, or more simply put, moves you in a safer direction to avoid condensation, whose bad effects can lead to mold, freezing moisture, etc in the hive if moisture is allowed to raise too high.

I suggest that humidity and heat retention need to be seen as 2 separate issues, this will make the problem more easily examined and understood.

A house kept nice and warm, but with a couple windows left partway open may still stay warm in winter, and will certainly not have trapped humidity problems (unless a sideways rain occurs ;) but will cost a lot of energy to maintain the thermostat set temp. On the other hand, a super-tight structure (like some new houses being built as "energy efficient" but with improper ventilation) which doesn't allow for proper air changes will retain too much of the moisture given off from everyday living, from plants, pets, cooking etc., and will condense its trapped moisture (you may see it first on the windows indoors)...and cause aforementioned problems.

So what I am getting at, is how this knowledge might be used to greatest advantage to aid the bees in winter. From all the posts I have seen about ventilation, it appears that the topics and facts mentioned above are not well ujnderstood by beekeepers in general, and it is my hope that we can get to a "better place" by matching all the vast experience and talents of you beekeeping experts, with some sound engineering practice and experience, and aid the bees in achieving a greater likelihood of getting through the winter alive, and hopefully using much less "fuel" doing so.
So....
Here is what I propose.

It would seem to me that, if a rigid insulation wrap around a hive was implemented, such as some "blue board" 3/4" or 1" rigid insulating foam, was taped around the sides in (4) separate pieces, and say, (2) thicknesses of the same were fastened to the top cover, the insulation value of the hive would be greatly increased, no doubt. The bees would use less fuel maintaining their body temp due to greater resistance to the structure's heat loss, again, no doubt. The important caveat is that the blue board would be kept an inch or so below the top cover, and an inch or so above the entrance slot, so as not to affect ventilation. The outside corners would not be taped airtight, but simply taped horizontally around the hive, with duct tape, affording the possibility of maintaining any existing ventilation at the seams. Your normal ventilation means would then be simply unaffected - propped open top cover or whatever... Additionally, this would permit a higher mean temperature in the hive, and/or at least permit the little heat generators to expend less energy and consume less stores keeping the same temp as they always try to maintain.
The blue board additionally, would not be an invite to mice as much as other insulation methods would be, such as batt fiberglass or straw, both of which would also absorb and maintain moisture. And no changes to the interior of the hive are required, another plus.

Somebody mentioned recently about their bees propylizing cracks shut which were deliberately placed there for ventilation...I do wonder if that means that bees understand their own requirement for humidity, were taking appropriate action, and therefore, whether we as managers are better off deliberately erring on the "slightly too much" ventilation side, allowing the bees to propylize the cracks to their own desire...they seem to know everything else they need to survive, and certainly can't modify the hive to any extent to add ventilation, especially when they are closed up in a ball in subzero temps keeping warm.(wow that was a long sentence) I would think the bees could fine tune the ventilation if they were allowed to.

I know this was a long post, but I thought it is an important topic that needs discussed. I may be missing something important here, with respect to the bees on this issue, and certainly welcome experienced opinions. I plan to give this a try with my hives....we will see what happens.

I edited this post for spelling and clarity...

[This message has been edited by Bill_newbee (edited November 16, 2003).]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>...they seem to know everything else they need, to survive,

Yes...
And if you want to engineer the perfect hive, study what nature provides and the bees have survived in for thousands of years. It might look like a hollow wooden structure with dry pithy insulation above and below, and small entrances.

Or in another area it might look like a wad of wax hanging on a tree limb. It just depends where you live.

------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Bill_newbee]

The post is specifically intended to discuss over-wintering in cold areas.

[Michael Bush]

There are other factors involved with bees than the ones with humans. One is that getting some sunshine gets them going on a warm day so they know they can do cleansing flights etc. One of the contridictary ideas of wintering is whether it's good for them to get some solar heat from a black wrap.

Another issue is water supply. The condensation in a tree tends to soak into the pithy wood and then get sucked back out for a water supply by the bees.

Also a pound of bees gives off a lot more total condensation than a pound of humans. Just due to surface area etc.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>The post is specifically intended to discuss over-wintering in cold areas.


Actully this thread is about ventilation, but as with so many topics related to bees no one aspect can be studied without taking into account other aspects that affect both positively and negatively on that topic at hand.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

Some but not all of the ventilation of a hive is up to the bees. Certainly in warm weather they fan to control a lot of it. They also put holes in combs sometimes, I assume for improved traffic or ventilation. They honestly don't seem to care that much about traffic, so I have to think it's ventilation. But then when they are clustered they are not fanning much. Now the bees are more at the mercy of whatever convection currents exist in the hive and drafts coming in the door and cracks.

[Ian]

>>since three of four of the hives are low in honey already, I am wondering what I can do besides feeding them to help them get through the winter.

You must satisfy them with feed. Food store is probably the most important factor in honeybee development and survival.

>>rigid insulation wrap around a hive

Sound like a good idea. As we beekeepers say, talk to 10 beekeepers and get 11 way of doing the same job. I have seen hives wrapped that same way, have not done it myself so cant comment on its effectiveness. Guess it all depends on what climatic conditions you have to face. I dont know how cold it gets in Cornwall, Pa USA, but I can take a guess.
I wrap my hives in packs of four, with bat 4" insulation on sides and 6" ontop, wraped with heavey construction tarpaper. Other than the mice, which I poison, it works great. I do not have exact uniform hives like some do. The hives are all deep equipment but some are taller, some shorter, some with tall bottom boards some with hardly any, I think everyone knows what I mean. I see a great importance in having the insulation pressed up against the hives. It insulates them better and prevents drafts. And that can be done best with fiberglass insulation. I can get at least 3 years ave outof my winter wrap, which ends up costing only 2-3$ per hive per year after replacing damaged wrap. I have a vent enterence in my innercover and feel for that bit of heat lost through the hole, the escape of the water vapour is more important.
Beekeepers winter management depend on your climate mostly. And by guaging your climate, you guage the stores needed to winter. The wrap is mainly used to protect the bees from the extreems, not to reduce the amount of feed needed to winter them,

Ian

[Bill_newbee]

Bullseye, I guess I meant that my long thread was about over-wintering in a cold climate, in response to your own comment, "I guess it depends where you live" I believe you said. Michael, you indicated that most of the ventilation is left up to the bees by fanning, and I agree, but without sufficient air movement in and out of the hive itself to enable the moisture to escape, the bees can't do the job themselves...


I have (4) hives, each approx. 24" high, minus the top and bottom board heights, and laid out some blueboard wra dimensions on 4x8 sheets, such that I can get exactly 2 hives per 4x8 sheet with almost no waste, using (1) thickess of 3/4" for the sides and (2) for the top. I believe it should last longer than fiberglass bat, although has less insulating value. A little duct tape, and we will see how well it works.

Hope I am not too late, three of the hives were really sluggish today despite it being warm enough to fly (about 60 degrees), and (1) of the hives was extremely active, going after all the sugar water I placed about 75 feet away from the hives. What gives? Do you think the other bees simply didn't find the sugar yet, or are they just too weak maybe?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>(1) of the hives was extremely active, going after all the sugar water I placed about 75 feet away from the hives. What gives?


Different strains of bees fly at different temperatures. I have some that will fly at 40 and some that won't come out until it's at least 55.

When it's really cold outside, I'd just as soon stay in by the fire and enjoy a nice warm drink.

Bill

[Russ]

That is the nice thing about starting out with 4 hives. You can compare them to one another. If you just had 1 hive, you couldn't do this. Dale

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Some but not all of the ventilation of a hive is up to the bees.

>Now the bees are more at the mercy of whatever convection currents exist in the hive and drafts coming in the door and cracks.


I can accept the above statements IF we are speaking of bees kept by humans in a box. But the point that I have been making and one that MB has also stated in the past is that the bees know what is best for them.

In their natural environment they are in control. They, like all God's creatures, have the ability to adapt to the changing seasons. They can not put on fat for the winter so they store food like squirls. They reinforce their nests like rodents to keep the wind and cold away. Their clustering is like a hybernation. It is a system that works for them and they have been doing it for thousands of years.

I have yet to see a bee tree with only one entrance. With the use of propolis they are able to close the entrances down to control the amount of air flow through the hive. They regulate the environment inside their hive.

I have two bee gums in the backyard, both have lids that I placed on them. On one of them the eight inch opening on the side has been closed down to about an inch. When I first brought it home it was totally open.

The worst problem they face is when the beekeeper comes along and opens up the box and breaks the seal they so carefully made between the boxes. If it is too cold they can not work the propolis and a leak of cold air starts breasing through chilling the hive.

I believe that you can learn a lot from observing your bees and can learn what is necessary for overwintering in your area. We only get down to about -5 here in the winter, not much snow, more ice than I like, and way too much wind. Our ferral bees here do not paint their hives white and they don't wrap insulation around them either, and I don't see a need to either.

If I lived in Pa. or Wa. I might do things differently, perhaps not. I don't know your weather but I am pretty sure that bees live in trees there too.



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Michael Bush]

>Michael, you indicated that most of the ventilation is left up to the bees by fanning, and I agree, but without sufficient air movement in and out of the hive itself to enable the moisture to escape, the bees can't do the job themselves...

I guess that was my point. They start getting clustered and don't have the control they have when they can fan. But they do seem to design some airflow into things. They certainly close off the cracks and reduce the entrance. They also leave paths in the comb here and there that I assume are for air, since the bees seem content to walk the long way around all the time.

I honestly have tried to provide ventilation in the past. I'm rethinking that. As far as wrapping, I've never done it and I've had bees in Laramie Wy and Mitchell Ne where it was -30 F at times. I just reduce the entrance to 3/4" wide or so. I've seen enough bees on a clear cold sunny day fly out to do a cleansing flight and crash in the snow. Because of this it seemed like a bad idea to put black wrap on them and have them get warmer sooner. But watching my observation hive I see that they are warm most of the time and they don't seem to do it any more than any other hive.

Mine have always wintered well. I have had mites kill them, but they never froze or starved that I could tell.

[Tia]

I'm a new beekeeper, but this is my experience. I have one very strong, very crowded hive--two deeps and the bees are shoulder to shoulder. I had done the popsicle shim thing on the inner cover, but it was obvious in the warmer months that they needed even more ventilation: They were bearding on the front of the hive and would stay out all night and even in the rain! So following advice in "Idiots," I pushed the top deep back just a little bit less that a bee space. Sure enough, they all moved inside at night! Now that the weather's getting cooler, I thought I'd close up the space, but the bees didn't like it so I opened the space again.

With regard to the hive being crowded, due to SHB--which is not here yet but threateningly close--the state inspector recommended I leave the hive crowded for the winter and split it in the spring.

[Dave W]

Tia,
Please dont take this as "advise".
This is my first winter w/ bees too.
Im just "thinking".

Pushing back supers, as you have described, is something I think of doing in very hot summertime. Now is the time when most are closing-up for winter. Whats your weather like?

Last winter (maybe Feb???) I found two hives in the stripper pits. They had been left w/ (during summer or fall??) the supers pushed back. During spring mushroom season (late Apr?) I checked the hives again, they had died. Why? I dont know.

If your hive is very, very full of bees, maybe you could add an empty (no frames??) brood chamber on top. Maybe leaving inner cover between #2 and new #3. They could use the space if they need room, and you would not have disturbed their present nest.

Ill bet next spring, you should be prepared for an early swarm.

Good Luck!

[Dave W]

Tia,
Please dont take this as "advise".
This is my first winter w/ bees too.
Im just "thinking".

Pushing back supers, as you have described, is something I think of doing in very hot summertime. Now is the time when most are closing-up for winter. Whats your weather like?

Last winter (maybe Feb???) I found two hives in the stripper pits. They had been left w/ (during summer or fall??) the supers pushed back. During spring mushroom season (late Apr?) I checked the hives again, they had died. Why? I dont know.

If your hive is very, very full of bees, maybe you could add an empty (no frames??) brood chamber on top. Maybe leaving inner cover between #2 and new #3. They could use the space if they need room, and you would not have disturbed their present nest.

Ill bet next spring, you should be prepared for an early swarm.

Good Luck!

------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.

[Tia]

Dave, thanks for the input. We are very warm (and humid) here in Coastal NC--it gets above 55 degrees most days during the winter so the bees break cluster often. I know of no one in the area that "closes up" for the winter. I was thinking just like you--that pushing the supers back in the winter was weird. I got the idea from Beekeeping for Dummies and it was specifically recommended for winter ventilation. I did it out of desparation when I saw my bees sitting outside in the rain! I knew there had to be a problem that they didn't want to go inside. I asked my "teacher" (45 yrs keeping bees) his opinion--he agreed that it was a ventilation problem and his only reluctance to pushing the supers back was that when he's done this he's found mold on the front board of the box come spring (like I said, it is very humid around here).

Pardon my ignorance--what are "stripper pits"?

I thought about adding a box on top but have been advised against that. Heat rises and it just makes the bees' job of keeping hive temperature even more difficult.

I am expecting a swarm next spring--if I don't get to split them first! I'll have my swarm trap hung and baited on the chance, though!

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[dickm]

Coyote, you made me laugh again and you didn't say anything.
BTW what ARE stripper pits?

Dickm

[wfarler]

Much as you might like it to be something exotic and covered with feathers and such- I think the 'stripper pits' Dave is referring to are shallow surface coal mines where the surface has been stripped to get at the coal seam and what is left behind are pits that are rocky, usually filled with water and generally unfit for most anything but dirt bikes or something like bee hives.

[loggermike]

All my hives have 3/4 inch ventilation holes in each box.One yard I checked recently had acorn meats stuffed into the holes.Bluejays maybe?

[Tia]

Thanks, wfarler! I should've known that with my family having worked in the coal mines in NW Pennsylvania!

[Dave W]

Tia,

Have you thought about Screened Bottom Boards and Slatted Racks, they increase ventilation.

Stripper pits: The BEST fishing, BIGGEST bucks, and LONGEST bearded old toms, found in southern Indiana. Sometimes, the "pits" (area) are gentle rolling hills, or may be piles of dirt creating "mounds". A "pit" dug to remove coal, if not reclaimed (filled-in) will sometimes fill with water, creating a landscape dotted w/ lakes. Stripper pits offer one of the few places (nearby) that I can find solitude.

Dave W

[jgd]

Strip pits are:
Where you learn to swim, fish, hunt, and fall in love.

[Tia]

Dave W and jgd, thanks for your explanation of stripper/strip pits. When I read the definition that they fill with water, I seem to remember seeing and hearing about them before. Sounds like a rather idyllic life you have going on there!

So far as the bee help, I do have SBBs on all three of my hives. I was looking at the slatted racks, but was advised against them. That was when I was first starting out and I don't remember the reasoning behind the caveat. Maybe I should do some new research. I thought it sounded like a good idea when I first read about them. Thanks for reminding me.

[Michael Bush]

The only arguments I know of for not using slatted racks are mite drop for a SBB being blocked (buy the ones from BetterBee if this worries you) and cost. Otherwise I don't know why you wouldn't want them.