Wedge or Groove Frames for Bee-ginner

[ainsof]

Hi,

We'd like to start our first pkg. on 4.9mm foundation straight off, and plan on extracting.

Whats the general consensus regarding wedge vs. groove frames and how do they differ?

[Ben Brewcat]

Well for SC foundation (good choice BTW) I'm guessing you're getting wax foundation (as opposed to plastic). That being the case you'll want the wedge. Get a brad driver; you'll thank us for it! Wired foundation in small-cell is available this year I believe.

Grooves are more for plastic fooundation I believe (and of course for hippies ;) ).

[kenr]

Ben would you relly use wired foundation on the first regression because forgive me if i'm wrong. But don't you replace the frames after the first and second cycles till you get down to 4.9mm.I'm A newbee and I might be going off on A wild tanget.

[Keith Benson]

"Get a brad driver"

Indeed, the suggestion to get a nail gun was one of the best I have ever received as a beekeeper.

Keith "they can have my nail-guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands" Benson

[Michael Bush]

>Whats the general consensus regarding wedge vs. groove frames and how do they differ?

I always buy grooved. I use a wax tube fastener and wax the foundation in. It's quicker and easier than nailing when you're doing a lot of them. ESPECIALLY if you're nailing them by hand. Also, the wedge doesn't pull out and when you put foundation in again, you don't have even more problems with the wedge pulling out.

If I have wedge frames, I use them. If they are used I put the wedge on a different frame so the nail holes DON'T match. If I have a wedge frame where the wedge isn't broken out yet, I never break it out. I just leave it attached and wax the foundation in the groove.

But really I like ungrooved top and bottom with a bevel cut ont he top the best. smile.gif

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessFrame2.JPG

[ikeepbees]

Ditto what MB said.

[Keith Benson]

If you are using the prewired foundation, can you fit it into the groove? I thought one had to use the wedge for that stuff. Let me know if I am wrong.

Keith

[Jim Fischer]

> If you are using the prewired foundation, can you
> fit it into the groove? I thought one had to use
> the wedge for that stuff.

You are correct.

The grooved type of frame is perfect for plastic
foundation, but will not work at all with any
sort of wax foundation. One can cut the frame
to convert a grooved frame to a wedge type, but
something has to clamp the wax foundation (or strip)
to prevent it from sagging, falling down, and
otherwise getting mucked up.

Wedged frames can be used with anything, but the
grooved frames are a labor-saving version of a
frame intended only for plastic foundation.

Mike's approach, waxing in the foundation, sounds
like even more labor-intensive than nailing
wedges, but to each his own. I know that any
of the vendors will swap unused unassembled frames
for frames of the same size but different type,
so if you bought the "wrong" frames, swap 'em out
and save yourself some work.

[ February 04, 2006, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]

[Keith Benson]

"so if you bought the "wrong" frames"

I didn't, but friend of mine who just got into beekeping did. They came with a kit that had plastic foundation. He wants to give small cell a try, and the small cell plastic is a disaster. I was hoping to salvage his frames. No worries, I have boxes of the wedge top frames. I find with a brad nailer it takes seconds to nail on a wedge, and no dripping wax.

Keith

[ February 04, 2006, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[Michael Bush]

>but will not work at all with any
sort of wax foundation.

It works great if you wax it in. I even know beekeepers who just pop the wax in the groove and put a wire in a "X" with one on each side and don't even wax it. But I'd think you'd have to do that just before you put it in.

>Mike's approach, waxing in the foundation, sounds
like even more labor-intensive than nailing
wedges

Yes it does sound like it. Which is why it took me so long to try it. But it's actually much quicker and easier. ESPECIALLY if you're hand nailing the wedges. Of course if you're doing ONE frame it's not, but if you're doing 100 or more it's much faster. I certainly didn't invent the wax tube fastener, so I'm not the only one who thinks so.

[mdotson]

Grooved frames were made long before plastic foundation was made. They make wired foundation without the hooks to be used in the grooved frames. Foundation for grooved frames is not as deep as wedge frames. I have only used wedge frames and I have no plans to change. I think wedge frames are simplier to use.

[carbide]

I also like the wedge frame. I use two brad nailers when I build my frames. The first is loaded with 1-1/4" brads for nailing the frames together and the second is set up with 5/8" brads to fasten the wedge in. When I nail the wedges in, I hold the nailer at a slight angle to the wedge to prevent the brad from breaking out through the top of the top board.

[ainsof]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your posts. Been under the weather a bit, so not able to respond until today.

Still haven't quite decided which type of frames to use, though everyone's input has been equally helpful.

On a related note, I've found prewired SC foundation (deeps) at a couple of suppliers, but cannot find it for mediums. Any ideas?

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=278CR

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=288

[Michael Bush]

>On a related note, I've found prewired SC foundation (deeps) at a couple of suppliers, but cannot find it for mediums. Any ideas?

Call Dadant and ask about it. I was under the impression they have it now, but I have not tried to buy any. I still have plenty of plain small cell deep I've been cutting in half for mediums (with a gap at the bottom).

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Foundation49.jpg

Here's a grooved top bar with two horizontal wires and I didn't wax the top yet. The gap is because I'm cutting plain, deep, small cell in half and putting two horizontal wires in.

[ainsof]

Hi Folks,

MB, thanks for the pic. Hmmm... how to explain this?

It looks like...

You secured a wire, punched through the foundation about a third of the way across, went across another third, then punched back though the foundation before securing the opposite end?

Repeating the process for the second wire, but from the opposite side? (a la "basketweave?)back.

Is this so, or am I making things too complicated again? ;)

[Michael Bush]

Actually the wire was put in first. All one wire. A nail to start it and a nail to end it. Then the wire was crimped with this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireCrimpers.JPG

Then the foundation was put in the frame and then the wire was embedded in the wax with this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireEmbedder.JPG

Here's a link to the basic process:

http://www.beesource.com/eob/wire_embedder/index.htm

[DANIEL QUINCE]

Michael, what wire do you use (Gage and material)? Also, is that a 24V or 110V used to heat the wire? The iron-heating element I assume is just a back up in case the wire is too long and won't get hot enough? And finally, what nail polish are you using, or are those somebody else’s hands?
Thank you
Daniel

[DANIEL QUINCE]

Sorry, I forgot to ask about grommets. Do you have a good source to recommend?
Thanks again

[ainsof]

Hi Mike,

Eureka! Thanks for the info.

So, this electric embedder heats the wire on contact, light pressure would cut them into the foundation in such a manner that the girls can easily build over them.

Cool idea!

12V device? Can it run off a lantern or car battery?

[wayacoyote]

ainsof,
I know people who use a car-battery charger as the power supply. I don't have an electric embedder (EE) but my spur embedder occassionally causes the wire to cut all the way through if I'm not careful. I figured that if I made my on EE, I would let it heat into the wax in spots (as you discribed above with the 1/3's) so at worst the foundation is perferated rather than cut all the way across.


As for gooved versus cleated top bars, as a beginner, I didn't have extra wax or a tube-fastener for melting the was into the groove. For cleaning out a frame and rewaxing it, I thing the grooved TBs would be easier to clean, but I'm glad that I started with cleats as a beginner.

Grommets: Dee turned me on to this and I love it! Regular office supply staples! Drive them on the outside of the End Bars right across the wire holes (or to the side that the wire will bend over it). Once practiced, I can put these in tons faster than grommets, and they are dirt cheap. I use a crimper, so my wire is banjo tight, but no problems with the staples versus the grommets.
Waya

[ February 15, 2006, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]

[Michael Bush]

>what wire do you use (Gage and material)?

Stainless steel from Glorybee. I don't know what gauge. But it's a lot stronger than any I've gotten from the other beekeeping supply places.

>Also, is that a 24V or 110V used to heat the wire?

http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=102

I bought iten 24 and item 109 and then modified item 109 a bit. I never paid attention to the voltage. If you look it up in the paper catalog (which I don't have handy) I believe it's specified there.

> The iron-heating element I assume is just a back up in case the wire is too long and won't get hot enough?

The iron is to save having a transformer.

> And finally, what nail polish are you using, or are those somebody else’s hands?

They aren't my pictures. I'm not sure who is actually doing the embedding. Barry might know.

>Sorry, I forgot to ask about grommets. Do you have a good source to recommend?

You can buy them from most suppliers. I've never used them.

>So, this electric embedder heats the wire on contact, light pressure would cut them into the foundation in such a manner that the girls can easily build over them.

Basicaly, yes. The embedder I use is this one:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireEmbedder.JPG

I bought it from Walter T. Kelly and added the extra metal pieces (the silver ones) that push the wire down. The current is from the ends and the rest of the metal pieces are just to push the wire down. You also need an embedding board. I use this one.

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=693

But they are easy enough to make.

>12V device? Can it run off a lantern or car battery?

Sure. But generating heat does draw some current. Most transormers that can handle a reasonable amount of amperage will work.

>I know people who use a car-battery charger as the power supply.

And they have plenty of amperage.

>I use a crimper, so my wire is banjo tight

And the other advantage to the crimpers is they increase the surface area of the wire to distribute it better through the wax. You can buy the plastic ones from Brushy Mt.

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=658

I had the welder rework them into a more serious tool. smile.gif

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireCrimpers.JPG

[Jeff]

Hey since we are on the subject of frames...I bought some split top bar frames for my cut comb. I thought this would be eaisier and better than the wedge top bars. I have never used these frames before and when I got them I can't seem to figure out how to use them properly.

Does anyone know how you get the foundation in the top bar?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I bought some wedged medium frames for foundationless. I put the wedge in verticly and stapled it in. (I love my new 1/4" crown stapler) Then I put a coat of wax on the bottom of the wedge for the bees to use for a guide. Works great.

[Michael Bush]

>I bought some split top bar frames for my cut comb.

Walter T. Kelley? Thin top bar with a slot all the way through it? If so, you need to buy the right size foundation for it and it just slips down through the groove and rests on the bottom bar. Thats the appeal. No cleat to nail, not extra work, it just sets there. smile.gif

[Jeff]

Correct Michael...Walter T Kelly. I have thin comb I bought for my cut comb...are you saying WT Kelly has a different comb for this top bar?

[Michael Bush]

Depending on what size frame you have and if it's got a solid or split bottom bar:

http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=114

#106 A (5 1/4") is for thin slotted top and divided bottom.

#106 B (5 1/4") is for thin slotted top and devided bottom bar

#102-C (4 7/8") is for Thin slotted top bar with solid bottom bar

#106-C (5 1/4") is for Thin slotted top bar with divided bottom bar

Of course you can also cut them down to fit. Many people just use the solid bottom and split top and just slide them in. Some people just do it in a very warm room and fold the top of the foundation over if it sticks through the top bar.

You can, of course, also cut it to fit if it's too big.

I think there is slightly more explanation in the paper catalog if you read it. Seems like I've also seen descriptions of this in one of the Comb honey books I have, either Killion's or Taylor's.

[ainsof]

Okay... I think I'm going to give wedge frames a whirl, SC foundation, and (thanks MB) learn to hand wire.

I'm looking at buying our first set of brood boxes / supers from Rossman (cypress wood), but Dadant sound like they have better made frames? Would this be a problem?

How do I know what to look for in quality frame construction? (ex.: Dadant boasts full 3/8" thick end bars)

Also, Do I really need a frame spacing tool? (looks like gloved fingers would work just as well)

[Michael Bush]

>Okay... I think I'm going to give wedge frames a whirl, SC foundation, and (thanks MB) learn to hand wire.

You can also buy wired SC foundation now.

>I'm looking at buying our first set of brood boxes / supers from Rossman (cypress wood)

I like cypress.

> but Dadant sound like they have better made frames? Would this be a problem?

I don't know the dimensions of the Rossman equipment precisely. Are they deeps or mediums? Except for the rabbet depth, most mediums tend to be more consistent than most deeps. Deeps seem to vary a lot on overall depth, rabbet depth etc. I've never had Rossmans frames, but I've had Western Bee Supply frames, Walter T. Kelly frames, Dadant frames, Mann Lake frames, Brushy Mt frames and Draper frames. They were all fine, but if you want to get nit picky, I think the Walter T. Kelly frames were the best by a slight margin. I have nothing against any of them.

>How do I know what to look for in quality frame construction? (ex.: Dadant boasts full 3/8" thick end bars)

I don't really know of any bad frames, but then I listed the only ones I've had.

>Also, Do I really need a frame spacing tool?

For what? The brood nest? I'd just push the frames together. The supers? You can space them by eye but if you have a lot of them to do, it's quicker to use a "comb" spacer like this:

http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=660

[ainsof]

Thanks Mike,

That narrowed it down quite a bit for me.

Of course, it raises even more questions smile.gif

<For what? The brood nest?>

When you write <push the frames together>, do you mean "nuts to butts" as they say in the Navy?

I thought there was a specific amount of space that had to be kept between any frames to minimize burr comb?

Is there a difference in frame spacing between brood boxes and supers?

[Michael Bush]

>When you write <push the frames together>, do you mean "nuts to butts" as they say in the Navy?

With Hoffman frames (self spacing). Yes.

>I thought there was a specific amount of space that had to be kept between any frames to minimize burr comb?

Yes and that amount is to shave a 1/16" off each side and crowd them even more. smile.gif

>Is there a difference in frame spacing between brood boxes and supers?

In my hives there is. I like 11 frames in a ten frame brood box and 8 or 9 (if they are already drawn comb) in a ten frame super. If they aren't drawn I'd put ten tightly together in the center.

[ainsof]

Right on, makes sense now. Always a learning experience on this forum. I like that. smile.gif

[Michael Bush]

But you can use ten in the brood chamber like everyone else. smile.gif

[Will]

[ February 18, 2006, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Will ]

[Will]

I've bought frames from Brushy Mtn., Dadants, and Rossman's. Fred Rossman has the best frames hands down. IMHO.
Will

[Robert Hawkins]

Hey ainsof,

<Is there a difference in frame spacing between brood boxes and supers?>

You probably will learn faster is you start asking why. Then if you don't like the answer you know what you can disregard. Let's take frame spacing;

In the brood chamber you want to work for the most frames surface area up to a certain limit. This limti is roughly two deeps or three mediums with 8-11 frames each. (Yes you can fit eleven if you shave the sides of the frames.) That gives lots of room for the queen to lay (brood nest) and the nurse bees to keep pollen and honey close. I'm being real general so someone else doesn't feel that I'm attacking his method.

In the honey supers you want more comb/wax and honey that means thicker comb needs to be drawn. While they're drawing a frame you need ten in there to keep the bees from goin' nuts with comb all over. But once you have drawn comb, well you saw the link MB posted with a spacer for nine frames. It's great. It makes the frames a lot easier to uncap. You just slice off everything that's fatter than the wooden section of the frame.

In fact it works so well that my spacer is only for eight frames per super. The nine spacer gives you more honey per super than using ten frames. The eight spacer gives you just about the same with less wood. Less money, more honey.

So the answer is you want as many frames as you can use in the brood chambers. For most of us, shaving is too much work so we use ten. And you want as few as you can in the honey supers. I know some people try seven but I haven't yet and I'm very happy with eight.

Did I answer your question?

Hawk