Checking the hives

[Les Evans]

Hi,
I went out today to check the hives and to see if the Queens are laying.
They are drawing the comb out great and are already capping some cells.
They have already had a quart shy of a gallon of feed as well and I am thinking about letting them finish the last quart and then letting them fend for themselves. Blackberries and other sources are starting to bloom.

The plan was to remove the end frames where there wasn't many Bees working and then slide the frames over to get to the frames with the most bees on them so I could pull them and check for any eggs or larvae.
Here's where I messed up...I chickened out on pulling the frames with the most Bees on it for fear of maybe smashing the Bees or Queen or losing her. So now I have no idea if she is laying or what is going on. I don't even know if she is in the hive as I didn't see her either.
It has been 2 weeks since I hived the packages and 1 week since the Queen was let out of the cage,although she could have been out longer as I am unsure when the Bees released her.
So where do I go from here?

I need to get over the fear of doing something to the Queen and the bees or I will never know what is going on with the Hives.

I would sure appreciate any suggestions thrown my way.

On the upside I have no fear of working with them gloveless of without a suit,but that doesn't help much with the welfare of the hives does it.

Thanks for putting up with me everyone.

[Neubee]

I understand your fear. Smashing the queen is the last thing you want. Just be really slow and gentle when taking out and putting in the frames and the bees will get out of the way.

Working gloveless is nice if you don't have mean bees. I started doing that after I dropped a frame wearing big leather gloves.

Hope this helps!

Neubee

[fhafer]

I started using a frame rest last year and I like it a lot. I bought it on ebay but they are available from the bee supply companies.

I start by pulling the least occupied outside frame and place it on the frame holder that hangs on the side of the hive. Then I pull three more, one at a time, and place them in the frame holder. That will leave you a big hole in the hive to pull the remaining 6 (or 5) an just slide them out of the way. If in the course of pulling a frame you find the queen you just return that frame to the hive body and slowly reassemble the hive. I like to drop in a frame and slide it into position. Only the last frame gets pushed in on the end. This should be the first frame you pulled so it will have the least number of bees to squish and since you saw the queen on another frame you know you won't hurt her. JMO.
Cheers
Fred

[ May 07, 2006, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: fhafer ]

[Les Evans]

Hi Neubee,
So far I haven't used gloves or a suit,they are pretty gentle.

I'm going to give it another try tomorrow(weather permitting) and this time try to keep it in my head that by moving slower then slow I wont harm the Queen or the bees.

Hi Fred,
I have a frame rest that I was using. I built it when I built my hives as I thought it would prove to be handy.
I did exactly as you said you like to do it but I had only pulled 2 frames and not 4.


Tomorrow I will go back out and start all over and stick with it until I find the Queen and the larvae.
One more quick question,When pulling the frames do I leave the bees on them or is it best to brush/shake them off so I can see the larvae better?
I guess doing that I might risk hurting the Queen right?

I put the last quart of feed on for them today and don't think I will be putting any more on for them as I mentioned above the blackberries and other sources are starting to bloom. I will see how they do.


Thanks for the help guys

[tecumseh]

les evans ask:
One more quick question,When pulling the frames do I leave the bees on them or is it best to brush/shake them off so I can see the larvae better?

tecumseh suggest:
I never remove the bees from a frame unless this is essential for the purpose intended (for example I do remove the bees from a frame that is used in another hive to boost population).

I think the lowest risk process for throughly inspecting a hive (and I would caution you or anyone else that the number of inspections should be minimized) is to remove the frames closest to the wall which I lean up against the hive and then begin inspection one frame at a time and sit the inspected frame directly back into the box after viewing (and into the slot of the previously removed frame-the first frame will typically end up on the far side of the box from in's original position). In most cases you really do not need to see the queen, but only need to see the evidence (eggs and larvae) that she is functioning. typically this information is revealed to you by frame 3 or 4.

ps... it is also good training (for you) to reflect on the disposition of the hive (sound, site, smell) when you first open the hive. most times variation from these benchmarks will alert you to the fact that something is amiss.

[Tia]

tecumseh gave you a lot of good advice. When I need to see down to the frame and the bees are piled up on it, I simply gently push them aside with my finger. A couple of times when I've done this, I've found the queen!

[Les Evans]

Hi tecumseh,
I will give your method a try. Right now I am waiting on the wind to die down before I check the hives.
Like you said all I want to do is see evidence that the Queen is there and is laying but hopefully in doing this I will get to see her as well.

You mention that I should reflect on the disposition of the hives when I open them.
When I opened them the other day they were quiet and very calm going about there business as if I wasn't there of course I did get some bees that were curious about me and had to check me out but then they went right back to whatever they were doing.
As for the smell,I didn't smell anything,at least anything that I could identify.
Seeing a hive in this state am I safe to assume that everything is doing fine?


Hi Tia,
Thanks,I'll give 'em a nudge so I can see the cells better.

I really appreciate all of the help. I feel much more confident now
Thank you

[xC0000005]

Start by watching the entrance. If the foragers aren't coming and going, there's two things: 1. There will be a lot more bees in the hive if the foragers are all in. 2. The weather might not be ideal for an inspection.

Are foragers coming in with pollen? That often means brood (though it can equally mean you've got some bees in that box).

Smell the scent coming up from the hive. Mine smell like lemon (very faint). Some people say that the alarm scent is like banannas, but I've not noticed.

I usually just look for eggs, though tomorrow I'm going after a queen to ahem, remove her. If there are eggs, and the egg pattern looks good, I'm going to think the hive is ok.

[Les Evans]

Hi xC0000005,
Thanks for the tips.
I didn't inspect the hives today as I felt it was a bit to windy to be doing it,although it was warm out and the bees were heading into and out of the field.

Yes,they are bringing in pollen. They were bringing pollen in just shortly after I hived them.
When I was in the hive the other day(before I chickened out) I noticed some pollen stores as well.
I am pretty sure they are still bringing it in but I will check tomorrow to be certain.

When I am able to go into the hives next I will be sure to try and notice a smell.
I hope all goes well and that I will see some eggs/larvae.

Thanks for the help,it is most appreciated

[tecumseh]

howdy les...

les evans sezs:
When I opened them the other day they were quiet and very calm going about there business as if I wasn't there of course I did get some bees that were curious about me and had to check me out but then they went right back to whatever they were doing.

tecumseh replies:
the hive appeared to be focused, not nervous, and very intent on their purpose. this is the type of behavior that you should look for in a nectar flow. do not be surprised when their disposition becomes a bit more defensive when the flow stops. on the other hand casual aggressive behavior should be a clue that someting is amiss.

then les evans adds:
As for the smell,I didn't smell anything,at least anything that I could identify.

tecumseh replies:
smell a bit harder. there should be the smell of brood a makin'. I have always had a difficult time describing this smell. like newly plowed bottomland this brood smells like fertility (which sounds like it should not smell). and certainly the most important thing to smell for is the smell of rot (putrid) which will never be associated with a hive that is healthy. any putrid smell is telling you that something is very much wrong.

les evans finally ask:
Seeing a hive in this state am I safe to assume that everything is doing fine?

tecumseh replies:
yes. as tia has suggested (or perhaps implied) most time I do not dismantle all the hives I might look at during a day. many time a bit of smoke to clear the girls from the top bar allows me to peak down between the frame and see capped brood which along with the hives behavior tells me that all is fine in the bees little world.

wishin' you luck...

[Marcus Griffin]

One thing I do is use the toolbox from BrushyMountain. It looks like a nuc and I put the frame that has the queen in there and then go through the rest of the hive without fear of injuring her. it costs something like $40 and is well worth the peace of mind. She can't get out either and her attendants take care of her while in "seclusion." A nuc by itself would do the same thing if the entrance were blocked, but isn't quite a portable as the toolbox.

[wayacoyote]

Les,
I'm sorry that I didn't understand, but going back to the original inspection, did you get any frames out at all or did you but stopped when the frames got crowded?

As for developing a sense of security with the bees, I won't elaborate again, but I've posted many times of the benefit of having 2 hives over 1, largely for dealing with concerns such as yours. directly, if you loose the queen in one hive, you can steal eggs from the other.

congrats on your hive.
Waya

[Les Evans]

Hi tecumseh,
Thanks for letting me know what my hives are doing...and what to look for and smell.
I still haven't been able to check the hives,I'm getting impatient and things got busy so it may be another day or two. I hope this wont be a problem...?
I will most definitely take note as to the way they act whenever I look inside the hives and when I finally can check them I will be sure to take a minute or two to stop and smell the Bees smile.gif
I know that if I ever smell anything rotten that it is Foul Brood or like you said something else very bad.
I will report back to you what smells I believe I am smelling and how I think they are acting when I check them...if for anything to see if I am correct in what I believe to be happening.


Hi Marcus,
I built a pretty neat tool box when I built my hives(I love building things)complete with comb and Bee pictures on it.
I will give your suggestion a try if or should I say hopefully when I find the Queen.


Hi Waya,
Yes,I took two frames(the ones with no bees or a couple on them) out so that I could slide the others over and out of my way but stopped when they got crowded.
I do actually have two hives,and hope that I learn the hobby well enough to expand to a few more.

Thank you everyone for all of your help.
I now feel more confident that when I check the hives I can do it without fear of hurting anybody and to actually be able to asses the hives better.

[wayacoyote]

One caution on the *smell test*, Les.
Many beginners, myself included, confuse the smell of goldenrod (late summer/ autumn nectar source) with AFB. Definately err on the side of caution. Just remember that goldenrod does smell putrid to some. Even after my state inspector checked things for me, i wasn't convinced until I drove past a field in bloom.

As for tips and techniques:
When inserting frames, I often slide the end bars of the one I'm inserting down along the end bars of the adjacent hive. This pushes bees out of the way and keeps the frames close together. It's easy to squish them when sliding frames together in done carelessly.
You ARE going to mash some, especially while setting down that 90 lb deep full of honey just as a girl stings you on the back of the neck. But you'll develop your own tricks to get the job done.

Waya

[Michael Bush]

>I know that if I ever smell anything rotten that it is Foul Brood or like you said something else very bad.

Yes, goldenrod smells pretty bad. So does a pile of dead drones on the bottom board. I had a hive I was sure, from the smell, must be AFB but it was a pesticide kill a big pile of dead bees rotting on the bottom. I would use the smell test only as a reason to inspect further.

[Les Evans]

Hi Waya,
I'll keep the smell of goldenrod in mind...I have seen reference to it smelling like week old dirty gym socks.
The sliding technique you use when inserting the frames is the one I used and felt safest doing.
With things being so busy right now I have set aside Saturday as the day to go back in the hive and put all of your guys help to good use.
I cant wait to feel the deep at 90 lbs...right now it feels like that is a far off dream but then I sit back and think about what progress I have seen from them and know that it will soon weigh that.


Hi Michael,
Right now the Bees are keeping house real well,not a speck of anything to be seen. Kind of like a surgery room...only cleaner.
But I know that will soon change.
So now that I know what I should and shouldn't mostly be smelling I will use that as yet another tool and reason to dig into the hives.

Thanks a lot guys I will keep you updated on my progress and the Bees when I get into the hives.
More questions? probably but hopefully only to see if I am comprehending things correctly.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Kyle]

adressing the earlier part of this post: I found that when inspecting the frames and leaving the bees on, if you want to check the cells but the frame's covered in bees, give a light blow (not physical blow lol like blowing air onto them). The bees just move aside a little allowing you to take a look. Of course though, I wear a veil smile.gif though that's all I wear.

[Les Evans]

Hi,
Instead of starting another thread I thought I would update this one...
Packages were both hived on 4-23 and the Queens were out within 7 days Unsure as they were let out on there own sometime between the 23rd and the 30th .

I went out today and checked both my hives,this time with confidence. Everything went great without a single hitch.

In Hive #1 which I had previously thought to be the weaker of the two hives they are getting along great lots of pollen and they are still bringing it in.
Now I am not really sure what I was looking at in terms of capped and uncapped brood(I have done searches to clarify this but its still murky)but I am assuming that what I seen was a real good amount of sealed brood in the center of about 3-4 + frames. I also seen a couple of big capped cells as well,maybe 2 or 3 cells in diameter?
I found the Queen and she looked healthy and seems to be laying well.
I plan to add a second brood box in about a week.
I took the feed off as well.

On to Hive #2 which I thought to be the strongest hive turns out to be the weaker of the two.
They are building and storing pollen but haven't touched about 3-4 frames.
When I reassembled the hive I put the untouched frames in between frames that they were working. From what I understand this will set them a couple days behind but figured this would be ok as I am not planning on harvesting any honey.
I found what I assume to be capped brood in a pretty good pattern just not as big an amount as Hive #1. atleast 2 frames.
I found the Queen in this hive as well and she seemed to be doing ok.
Now in this hive I also found a really big capped cell about the size of 4-5 cells in diameter. Any clue as to what this might be? A superceder cell?


Both hives were pleasant to work but towards the end of each I could tell they were ready to be left alone.
As for the smells I again couldn't smell anything that I could readily recognize.
I also noticed in both hives that they are chewing the foundation(not in big amounts) and in one hive they chewed two big holes clear through to the other side of one frame. They are also building wavy on some frames and perfect on others. Also on some frames it is like the foundation has shrunk away from the sides making a gap.

I guess now I will let them be for a week or two and then see what they are up to as at this point I'm not sure of what I really need to do.

Sorry for the long post. I'm sure there are some other things I haven't mentioned that I wanted to ask you all but I didn't have a pad to write notes on(I will in the future)so I am going by memory and I usually don't remember things till I am laying in bed trying to fall asleep.

Oh,and it wasn't hard at all finding either Queen. I found them both by the second frame I inspected. Pretty cool seeing her,I was excited.

Thank you

[ May 14, 2006, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Les Evans ]

[Quint Randle]

What I've seen and been told is that if you need them to continue drawing comb then keep feeding.

Quint

[Les Evans]

Hi Quint,
I have taken the feed off as there is a flow going on right now but have been tempted to put feed back on the weaker of the two hives. I will see how their progress is the next time I check them and decide then if I should leave it off.

Thank you.


I'm still curious as to what I should do about my other questions/actions in my above post?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.