Did they kill the queen?

[oregonsparkie]

I had a small hive, just enought bees to cover 2 frames. I got a call for a swarm and removed them. It was a small swarm also so I decided to add the bees to the small hive. I poured the bees directly into the hive but used a queen excluder and removd the queen.

The amount of bees I added was about the same as what was already there. When the new bees merged into the hive would they have killed the old queen thinking it was their hive or would the exsisting bees protected her???


Boy this bee stuff is a learning experience

[oregonbeekeeper]

Hmmm, they probably killed the new queen if there wasn't enough of "her" bees to protect her while your established hive got used to the new queens pheremones (sp?). One thing is for sure, there was an awful lot of fighting going on in the hive that night.

Time will tell if the queen is dead or not. In the future,in order to avoid a bee "cage match" and save lots of little bee lives you should plop down a queen excluder with a sheet of newspaper with a few little holes poked in it between the exising hive and the new super with the swarm in it.


The bees will try to fight there way through the paper but by the time they get through they have already goton used to the new bees and queen.

[oregonsparkie]

Oregonbeekeeper,

There was only one queen - the original queen. I ran the new bees through an excluder and took the new queen but I opened the hive today and didnt see the old queen so I thought the new bees(without the new queen) knew it wasnt there queen and killed her. I hoping the old bees protected her before they could kill her.

I was just wondering if anyone ever done this before and could tell me what I can expect

[This message has been edited by oregonsparkie (edited June 30, 2004).]

[Michael Bush]

Rarely I've even heard of them killing the queen and fighting badly in a newspaper combine. So if you just dumped them in, who knows. Sometimes it works and sometimes they have a war.

If they have a war the queen often dies.

[oregonsparkie]

Michael,

What is the best way to introduce a captured swarm(minus the queen) to an existing hive??

[Michael Bush]

I would put them in a minimum sized box (I have 2 frame, 4 frame, and 5 frame nucs and 8 frame and 10 frame boxes) and let them settle down for a couple of days and then do a newspaper combine with nuc introduction board or put them in a full sized box for the combine.

A nuc introduction board is simply a piece of plywood the size of a Langstroth box (16 1/4" by 19 7/8") with a hole in the center smaller than the bottom of a nuc. Mine gets multi use wth different sized nucs etc. and sometimes for feeding so it's just a 1/4" laun 16 1/4" BY 21 1/2" with a 1" by 2" cleat on each end and two holes the size of a quart jar lid. Just put the newspaper over the board and poke a small hole in the newspaper in the middle of each of the holes.

The newspaper combine is ALMOST foolproof.

If you DO want to risk dumping them all together, I'd smoke them heavily to add to the confusion or spray some HBH (Honey Bee Healthy) syrup on them so they all smell the same.

Sometimes you get away with this and sometimes you don't. The smaller both groups of bees are and the more confusion the better luck you will have dumping them in together. That's why you can do a shaken swarm from many hives. The confusion factor is high, the bees are from so many different groups that they can't organize a defensive. Every bee is a member of a minority group of bees. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[BerkeyDavid]

Michael,
Do you close up the nuc with screen or let it open?

One of my TBH's looks like it is going toswarm any minute, they are outside doing a "dance" together!
david

[Michael Bush]

>Do you close up the nuc with screen or let it open?

At what point? If I'm hiving a swarm I don't close it up. When I'm combining a nuc on a moderate day I just put it on the newspaper with no other way out. On an exceptionally hot day I would try to provide some kind of ventilation while they combine.

>One of my TBH's looks like it is going toswarm any minute, they are outside doing a "dance" together!

Could be. It also could be they superceded and the new queen is mating or they already swarmed and the new queen is mating...

They aren't just hanging on the front to get some air?

Do you have box ready to catch them?

[Darrel Wright]

"The confusion factor is high, the bees are from so many different groups that they can't organize a defensive. Every bee is a member of a minority group of bees."

You just described the propolis that has glued the great American experiment together for lo these many years. You've done Madison and Hamilton proud, Mr. Bush...you redeem the name.

Sorry for the OT-- July 4th always gets me going...

[bjerm2]

Another method that can be used instead of HBH (Honey Bee Healthy) in a pinch you can use 2 to 1 sugar syrup (two water to one syrup by volume) with a dash of vanilla extract. Spray this on both the old hive and the swarm. This just messes up their smell and everyone has got to clean them selves. I like to use the newspaper method with the swarm on top and the established hive below. Give the swarm a frame of brood with no bees and shake the swarm right on top of this with 8 regular frames (or foundation) plus the one frame of brood. This will keep the swarm put and give them something to do, taking care of brood and get rid of that nasty newspaper, plus both hives now smell of vanilla. You don't need much. In a quart sprayer I use a drop of it. It just stinks them up, by morning everyone is happy. And yes don't forget to remove one of the queens unless your doing a two queen system. This requires an extra supper. To do this have the old hive, box one, next excluder, empy box with frames, next excluder with newspaper, next swarm with thier queen. And I would still spray them. Within a week everyone will be working together. This will boost brood and honey input into the hive. The top queen will be killed later on in the year. This is a good setup now that July is here and we all know the saying. You can also combine more swarms using this method, 2 or 3 swarms once you spray them. This time of the year the swarms are getting smaller. Now that I have confused you .....
Good luck.
Dan

[BerkeyDavid]

<They aren't just hanging on the front to get some air?

That is possible. none of the other hives are having trouble, but it has been getting up in the 80's this week. Also this TBH is th3e only one with a metal roof and the entrance is in the end. So this hive might be hotter than the others. I had a piece of bright aluminum flashing and used it on this one. Others just have wood plywood tops painted white. Maybe they are cooler.

<Do you have box ready to catch them?

yep, but I have been unable to find them if they did swarm. I have been walking around looking in the trees. Tempted to put out an APB to the neighbors but don't want to alarm them!

Got down in the low 60's last night, this morning the hive was still buzzing but not near as many hanging outside....

[bjerm2]

Try shifting the second supper back about 1/2 inch. Gives the bees air and another entrance. This will stop them hanging around the outside.
Dan

[Michael Bush]

A box with old combs and a dash of Lemon Pledge (or swarm lure or Lemongrass oil) in a tree, eight feet or more off he ground, will make a nice swarm trap.