observation tube length

[BjornBee]

What is the longest tubing for a observation hive that you have used?

I have a market who want me to install a O.H. at eye level inside the store, but wants the tube to run up the wall and exit outside at the highest possible point due to customers etc.

Other than thinking a bee has a long way to drag another dead bee all the way up the tube, what other possible problems or advice is there?

Thank you.

[sierrabees]

I had an observation hive in the 80's with over 8 feet of 3/4 inch clear plastic tubing and it worked OK. The only problem was that when my wifes vacuum cleaner bumped the long tube I discovered that the tube wasn't secured well enough and since then all observation hives have been banished to the outside.

[Sundance]

Condensation has been my worst enemy as
far as the tube goes. Especially in dips
and low spots. Water will pool and the bees
get stuck and die there creating a blockage
in the tube.

I used a small drill bit to ventilate and
add drainage to problem areas and it does
seem to help.

[drobbins]

Bjorn

this topic came up a while back and was specifically about how to get the bees to use the long tube
it was suggested to initially hang a piece of string down the length of it to give them something to hang onto until they get accustomed to the entrance
might be helpful info
I think that might have been Mr. Fischer's idea

Dave

[Michael Bush]

I had a lot of trouble with a really long one. Jim's idea sounded worth trying.

[drobbins]

there's another thread running around talking about a top entrance for an o-hive
if the outside entrance needs to be high this would shorten the run of the tube

Dave

[BjornBee]

drobbins,
about top entrances...I thought of that but wonder about the cold air flow into the hive. With a O.H. width of one frame and cold air flowing from the top, could this be a problem on cold/freezing nights. With the bottom entrance the air enters at the bottom and it seems as if my bees regulate the air flow upwards by fanning and by propolizing the side air vents as they see fit, to slow air escape and slow heat loss. Would this not be an option with top entrances?

The string sounds like something worth attempting.

[drobbins]

Bjorn

I've thought about this quite a bit
I have my o-hive in my basement which I heat with a fireplace, so I know I'm pulling a negative pressure in the room and air is trying to get in anywhere it can
the o-hive entrance is the path of least resistance
many o-hives I saw had a bottom entrance and ventilation holes at the top which I figured would result in cold air coming in the entrance and being pulled thru the hive, not good
I have a bottom entrance in mine with big vent hole right next to the entrance so this outside air can come in the entrance and immediately exit the hive
I'm just now getting to test it and it works great, you can tell by just holding your hand by the different vent holes and feeling the air flow
I think you could use a similar plan with a top entrance
is the place you're going to put it heated?
here's pic of my entrance

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/oh/dsc01232.jpg

Dave

[BjornBee]

Dave, nice pics.

I don't have pics, but we are on the same page. My O.H. with the bottom entrance has the top 3/4 of the side vents blocked. The cold air coming into the hive by the cold air being drawn with negative presssure (fireplace) can exit the O.H. by one of the lower vents. I have seen no moisture concerns, the bees seem happier, and they don't lose the heat from the top by forced cold air entering below.

This is what got me thinking about this whole "top entrance" thing to start with.

[drobbins]

I'm in the middle of building 3 o-hives right now
my original 1 I built from scrap pine and now that I've learned a few things I'm building a replacement for the original, one for a buddy, and one that will be portable to show at schools, markets, etc. So I'm doing a lot of pondering this stuff
Throw any good ideas you come up with my way smile.gif
what are your thoughts on glass spacing, I'm going with 1-5/8"

Dave

[BjornBee]

Dave, I never built one....yet. So I never measured something like glass width, etc.

If I did build one, the one listed in the BetterBee catalog would be the design I would copy. I have one and really like it.

BTW...I'll be ordering two more very soon. So if you Dave, or anyone else can make me a good offer, I'm game.

[drobbins]

I read a bunch of stuff here about the width between the glass. I get the impression that most of the store bought o-hives have the glass spaced further apart than what would be the comb width plus 2 "bee spaces"
in the one I build I first shimed the glass apart to 1-3/4" and the bee's formed a layer on the comb and another on the glass, this made it really hard to see what was going on since you were looking thru 2 layers of bee's
I pulled the shims out so it's 1-5/8" spacing and now it's much better
these are small cell bee's so I'm not sure if this is the right spacing for "other bee's" smile.gif but it's something to think about

Dave

[Fusion_power]

Bjorn,

Will this be a permanent observation hive? Will it be expected to keep bees alive all winter?

If the answers to the above are yes and yes, then build it to hold at least 3 full depth frames. I've built some pretty good observation hives in the past and have repeatedly been disappointed by anything smaller than 3 full depth frames.

Don't hesitate to use the upper entrance as suggested above. Build an air baffle into the side of the observation hive. Put screen on each side of the baffle so any air movement will be inside the room and not as convective flow through the observation hive.

The longer the tube, the larger diameter it needs to be. I've used flexible radiator hose successfully in the past. I would not go larger than 1.5 inches diameter for a 6' long tube.

Consider building side covers out of sheets of thin plywood. The biggest problem I had with an observation hive in a public area was that the constant light and people staring and tapping on the glass eventually led to absconding. Covers on the sides reduce this quite a bit.

The only other pet peeve I can think of is the slide in glass some observation hives are designed with. This is an invitation to a disaster. I build a rectangular frame 3 inches wide Then I build the side glass panes with a wooden rim so the two sides slide into the rectangular frame leaving 1 and 1/2 inches between the panes of glass. It gets glued up some with propolis, but overall, is much less likely to be damaged than other designs. I just scrape the propolis off the side glass before putting it back in place.

Almost forgot, assemble with glue and screws and use some form of screw fastener to hold the side glass in place. It should be fairly easy for you to remove the fasteners and open the hive up but should be very difficult for the average person to walk up and open.

A nice design feature I've seen used is to mount the observation hive on two pieces of galvanized pipe mounted to the wall with flanges. The galvanized pipe acts as a hinge allowing the observation hive to be turned parallel to the wall. One of the pipes can serve as an entrance if it goes through to the outside.

Fusion

[drobbins]

be sure to look at Ross's design
that's where I got my idea's

http://www.myoldtools.com/OBhive/OBhive.html

Fusion,
you went down to 1-1/2" ?
wow
I had better luck going thinner but I haven't tried that much
I'm building a couple, might have to build in provisions for trying that

Dave

[Ross]

I think 1 5/8" is about right if you expect to draw comb in it, especially if you want to draw comb with foundationless frames. Anything more and they will draw at least some on the glass. Mine is having a good winter. When the wind is out of the north right into the tube, they move up a frame (medium) but no condensation and no problems. They just took a pint of syrup and the queen is laying a little.

[ December 13, 2006, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Ross ]

[Michael Bush]

I've had them 1 1/2" 1 3/4" and 2 1/4". The 1 1/2" thick one worked fine if the bees were drawing their own comb, but was too skinny for PermaComb and too skinny to take frames of brood from a hive and put in the observation hive. The 1 3/4" worked well when taking frames of bees from another hive. Sometimes you still have some extra thick comb that won't fit, but you can pick your combs to not be fat like that. The 2 1/4" had a lot of burr on the glass.

(can't type sometimes)

[ December 14, 2006, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]

[Fusion_power]

Standard frames are 1 and 3/8's inches thick. I use frames 1 and 1/4 inches. The standard frames will fit if the space is 1 and 1/2 inches between the panes of glass. Much over 1 and 5/8 inches and the bees will burr up the glass.

Here are some of the design considerations for an observation hive:

1. A built in feeder - Bees in an observation hive always have to be fed.

2. Air ventilation - They must have enough but not excess. 4 square inches of screen area is barely enough for a 3 frame unit. Add about 2 square inches for each additional frame. The bees will propolize any excess screen area. Be very careful with design of a vent. The entrance can act as a chimney sucking air through the colony and outside. This can be a serious problem! An air baffle can help with this.

3. Side covers - A convenient way to cover it up so light is excluded is needed. Wooden side panels do this best IMO.

4. aesthetics - It should look good if it will be installed inside a home. If its in a barn, you can cobble it up from scrap if you so choose. The bees don't care.

5. An external entrance - If it goes out in an unused area, go straight through the wall. If into an area people pass by, run it up high as possible so the bees exit above human traffic.

6. Glass vs plexiglass - Glass is breakable, plexiglass is much less so, but plexiglass turns very cloudy from bee traffic and is harder to clean than glass. If its in a public area, use plexiglass. For my personal use in my own home, it will be glass.

7. Clean out area - debris accumulates in the bottom and can be a haven for beetles, wax moth, etc. Its nice to have a simple method of cleaning out the bottom without having to fully open the colony.

8. Minimum size - Any less than 3 full size frames is very difficult to maintain. More than 6 full size frames is difficult to manage just from the height it reaches.

9. Swivel design – If you can permanently mount it, feel free to do so. But I always seem to find a reason to want it turned parallel to the wall so it’s a little more out of the way. There are a couple of simple tricks to do this. One way is to mount it on strap hinges. If you do this, consider using a standard P trap pipe (think sink drain) to get to the outside. It’s a simple plumbing item and it can be swiveled without problems. Another way is 2 inch galvanized pipe with 2 flanges, 2 elbows, and straight pipe enough to make swivel joints. It has about 1 and ¾ inches internal diameter for a bee exit.

Fusion

[Beemaninsa]

Local museum has a 5 fr. Entrance tube is about 10 ft.

[Jim Fischer]

The longest tube I've installed was 14 feet of
1.5-inch clear tubing, but I see no reason why
a longer tube could not be used. As mentioned
above, Dad and I do put some clothesline with
a weight (most often a machine nut) tied on
the end down the tube, as this give the bees
something to climb on, and helps them to learn
how to navigate the more vertical length.

A clean-out is also a good idea at the lowest
point in the tube where a few dead bees may
be dropped. Often, ob hives are much less
than "full strength" colonies, and it appears
that perfect housekeeping is among the first
tasks to be left undone in such scenarios.

[Oldbee]

Hi. Whatever the "length", maybe those who have removed bees from houses or whatever should respond if they can. Out of "consideration" for the bees maybe there should be "maximum" length and then after that a person needs to have a much better site for an "observation" hive.

[Oldbee]

Hi again. I would like to have an obsevation hive but right now I can't. If could I would allways take the welfare of the BEES as my first consideration and make the entrance tube as short as possible!!

[Jim Fischer]

> Out of "consideration" for the bees maybe there
> should be "maximum" length

> I would allways take the welfare of the BEES
> as my first consideration

What possible impact on the "welfare of the bees"
would a longer entrance tube have?

> I would like to have an obsevation hive but
> right now I can't.

Oh, OK, I see - you've never had one, so your
concerns are theoretical, rather than based on
any specific tangible concern.

Honestly, I don't think anyone has ever noticed
any negative impact from a longer entrance
tube, and as many folks have pointed out,
running a longer tube allows the bees to enter
and exit well above human head height, which
eliminates concerns about stinging in the very
public venues that tend to be popular for ob hives.

[BjornBee]

Thanks everyone.
Yes, the O.H. will be secured along a wall. It will also come back to my place after use and cold weather sets in.

The tube length is a request from the market owner over concerns of flight path from the back of the store which happens to back up against a pick your own field of blueberries.

I have seen other O.H's at markets just screen off a little "court yard" area, and post a sign. I personally think thats a big old "Come over here" invitation to curious little folks. So having the entrance as requested, a little higher, seems to work for me.

At most it would be no more than 6 to 8 feet. So from what it sounds, that should not be a problem.

Thank you for the comments.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I used a wall mounted TV stand that swivels. It was really convenient to be able to stow it away against the wall and be able to swing it out to see both sides.

I also had both top and bottom entrances that T'd at the upper upper entrance. I hadn't thought about putting a string in the tube, and they were having a terrible time going vertical in the new tubing, so I added the top entrance.

When I was evicted from my home and moved it to the farm I had just one bottom tube that ran flat for about seven foot. I eventuly lost them when I wasn't there for two weeks and the tube got clogged with dead and dying bees. :(

One has to be observant to maintain an observation hive.

[power napper]

We have remodeled our observation hive three times, keep making it better for us and the bees I hope. Now the 1 1/4 inch hose is level to the window sash, no uphill drag for the clean up crew.
Occasionally the feeding of pollen causes too much debris on bottom so we drilled half inch hole into the end so we can slide in a tube clear through the bottom, fire up the vaccuum sweeper and stick the tube into the end of vac hose. Using your fingers to regulate suction it works wonders for cleaning up the bottom of the observation hive without taking the hive outside.
The drilled hole is closed by a piece of pine whittled to fit because we did not have any corks.

[drobbins]

here's another possibility
make the entrance tube as short as possible, just get em through the wall
then build a vertical "tunnel" up the wall as high as you want
build it from the same material the wall is covered with so it matches
that way the bee's exit the tube and fly up the tunnel to get free
you could even put a little cover on the "tunnel" to keep rain out
check out the cover I built for my entrance. It doesn't go up but maybe it will help visualize what I mean

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/oh/Dsc01512.jpg

that's the nuc sitting next to the entrance before I installed them
the gray conduit going down is power going to my secret underground laboratory smile.gif
ignore it

Dave

[ December 15, 2006, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Where I have been wanting to put my OH is on the NW wall of my new house. I really didnt want to put a hole in the that side of my house, but Daves entrance cover is too cool. I'm gonna do it now!

I'm sure I have a really weak nuc somewhere around here needing some special care. smile.gif If not I'll make one. :D

[honeyman46408]

"but Daves entrance cover is too cool"

Bill I agree that is kul now why didnt I think of that, O cause it is in the garage ;)

[BjornBee]

Nice picture Dave. Adds to the possibilities. Thanks.

[drobbins]

mine is in an unfinished basement that I'm SLOWLY finishing off into a rec room, so it's a great place for an OH and putting a hole in the wall wasn't that big a deal as long as it looked ok from the outside
mines on the north too, I sure wish it got sun, the bee's sure seem to like it

Dave

[Oldbee]

Hello. I was only thinking about the "natural" homes of honey bees and their entrances. Of course a tube that was 14 feet long seems like a pretty long distance for a bee to make. I am sure most insects don't make that kind of "trip" unless it is inside their primary home. Again, if one needs to have a "long" tube for the bees that is above [and beyond] human traffic one is taking the human welfare first and foremost before the bees. Of course I haven't asked any bees what they think so maybe, [no OB. hive] I should keep my mouth shut.

[drobbins]

Oldbee,

I would point out that at least at my house, the bee's in an OH are among the most pampered in the world
they're fed syrup anytime they'll take it and they get pollen at the first hint they might raise brood
if it's cold I burn fossil fuel and aggravate global warming trying to keep them warm and if I see a pest on them I try to figure out what to do about it
crawling 8 feet down a tube to poop ain't to bad a trade off smile.gif smile.gif
heck, I'm afraid my other hives will try to move in for the winter :rolleyes:

Dave

[ December 15, 2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[Oldbee]

Ookay!! smile.gif :cool: :rolleyes: