purple martins and lagoon water

[ottebee]

I would like to place a couple hives near my purple martin houses. Is there some type of conflict I'm setting up? I don't want the martins eating all my bees. Plus, this same site is about 40 feet from my septic lagoon. Can that be good? I assume they'll use it as a sourve of water. Not sure I want to eat sewage tainted honey . . HELP a newbee please! Thanks

[Curry]

The martins may enjoy some of your bees, but not enough to seriously hurt the population. A population of 50,000 with hundreds added daily doesn't get decimated easily.

As for the septic lagoon- bees use water to cool the hive when needed (by evaporation), they don't add it to honey. In fact, bees have to fan the honey to get water OUT of the honey. The last thing they'd want is more water in the honey.

Everyone has bees next to a drainage ditch, or a pond that cows poop in, etc., don't worry about it.

[Mike Gillmore]

>> I would like to place a couple hives near my purple martin houses.

I have a slightly more paranoid view on this. Two years ago I placed a couple of hives near some purple martin houses which were set up beside a large pond, for mosquito control of course. Later in the summer I was puzzled when the colony populations seemed to level out and they stopped building up, even though there was plenty of healthy brood visible.

One day while driving up to the hives I stopped the car and watched as several purple martins were flying back and forth in front of the hives snatching an easy meal. This went on for quite some time with different birds moving in and out of the lunch flock.

I later did some reading and found a reference stating that one bird can eat up to 100 bees a day. Do the math and you can see what it could have been doing to the hive population.

In the winter I moved the hives about 800 yards away from the lake and have had no more issues with the purple martins.

There has been discussion here on the subject, with a split in the consensus. Maybe all purple martins do not act this way... but mine did.

[BerkeyDavid]

OK I have to weigh in here since I am both a purple martin landlord and a beekeeper.

I don't have a problem with the martins at all. In fact I haven't seen them snacking on my bees.

On the other hand, my buddy Mitch has a neighbor's barn swallows over at his beehives all the time chowing down.

I have noticed the bees chasing a particular red wing blackbird on a regular basis. The Blackbird stakes out his territory and the bees seem to oppose it.

My guess is that yes, the martins probably do take a few bees now and then, but nothing to cause any alarm. The Martin's seem to take their prey much higher up than the bee flight path.

I do think fresh water is important and I would look to provide them with a fresh source.

Also you definitly want to put your hives as far from the martin houses as possible.

[George Fergusson]

"septic lagoon"

You don't have subsurface sewage disposal systems out there in Kansas?

[Hobie]

Actually, lagoons are quite effective if properly maintained. Most use your typical tank for the, er, "solids" and then run into the pond. If your soil isn't right for percolating, this is often a good option, if you have the land.

Okay, that's enough non-bee-related work-stuff.

[jdagpatton]

I remember reading that purple martins feed high in the sky for the most part. Higher than most mosquitoes......there is a debate whether they eat a significant number of these for control. If fact, their favorite food seems to be dragonflies which may actually harm you mosquito control (dragonflies eat huge amounts of mosquitoes). That being said, I am still trying to get a colony started.

[carbide]

Get some bats. Their work schedule and the bee's work schedule are on different time clocks. smile.gif

[leamon]

David, are barn swallows a big problem? I have a hive close to the barn and see several swallows around. I've wondered about them but haven't seen then after the bees. I don't want to move them because they are well sheltered and on concrete.

leamon

[Hobie]

leamon, I have had a wild colony in my barn wall for several years now, and have a few families of barn swallows. (less now that the dang pigeons have invaded, but that's another rant.) I've never noticed any significant attention being paid to the bees. Of course, I live next to a swamp, and there is no shortage of other insect life.

[ottebee]

Yes, our soil did not pass the "percolation" test for septic tank and laterals. We do have 5 acres but still limited on the ability to move hives a significant distance. I hope to get the new hives established before the Maritins arrive which is usually early May. Thanks for the posts!

[wayacoyote]

Jdagpatton and Carbide are on the right track if mosquito control is your concern. However, Purple Martins, while they may not help with mosquito control, are practically limited to the charity of humans for nesting sites.

Regarding lagoons, they are also utilized as an alternative septic management system. Standard septic systems leach the fluid into the lower soil, and pose the hazard of allowing the leach fluid to seep too deep too quickly. In many applications, plants' roots are the last opportunity for leach to be "purified" before it reaches the ground water. Lagoons are designed to correct this deficiency and hold the leach at plant root level until it can be completely processed.

I'd love a lagoon system.

Waya

[jim b]

"Lagoon" sounds so much more appealing than "cess pool" ;)

[BjornBee]

As with any predator to bees, some may ignore them, some may turn thier entire attention to the bees. I have skunks in the area, and even a raccoon family in one of my barn attics, and never have a problem.

Birds may diet exclusively(mostly) on one thing, and ignore something else. The thing with purple martins is thier very effective hunting methods. If they focus on your bees, they will do some damage. I have found that they really don't hang out near the hives as thats where most beekeepers notice any easily found evidence of bird damage. They are just as happy hanging out in another part of the yard, picking off the unattentitive bee collecting pollen or nectar from a dandlion flower. The bees are so focused, there really is nothing more than eating them, as compared to "catching" them. They are very easy marks.

If you have any desire to raise queens, purple martins are not a good thing to have around. The queen on a mating flight is somewhat bigger than a worker bees, flies somewhat slower, and is an easy target for a purple martin.

[George Fergusson]

I've never noticed birds being much of a problem. Occasionally I'll see a fly catcher in the area but I don't think they take many bees.

The most common predator of my bees are dragon flies. They are formidable hunters. They set up a holding pattern in front of the hives and invariably snag the heavily laden, slower moving incoming bees. The faster moving bees leaving for the field are harder to catch. After a dragon fly hatch, there can be hundreds of them cruising the field. The only saving grace is they eat a lot of deer flies and mosquitoes too and they seem to be rather territorial. A few of them will stake out an area and drive off other dragon flies that attempt to encroach on their space.

[BjornBee]

Morning George,

I have a site next to a football field size pond. There are always a few dragonflies around. Two years ago, there was a bumper crop, and the banks of the pond must of had one dragonfly every ten feet. As the only water source in the area, the bees were picked doff as they made thier way to the waters edge. I had considered moving them, but this past year, there were much fewer dragonflies.

[George Fergusson]

Morning Bjorn. Happy Saturday.

I've resisted the urge to get upset about dragon fly predation of my bees though the first time I witnessed my bees getting snapped up by a squadron of dragon flies, I got quite unhappy smile.gif

Dragon flies will stake out about 10' of shoreline and vigorously defend it against intruders, it's fun to watch. Any insect that enters their zone is either driven off, or more likely, caught and eaten. Come late afternoon and early evening they will congregate in a field or meadow by the hundreds and systematically harvest the local insect life with a vengeance.

There's no shortage of honey bee predators:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/hyssop1.jpg

Notice the hovering bee dispassionately investigating her sister's fate.

Ain't nature great?

[BjornBee]

George,
Nice pic. You should send that into bee culture. They have a pic contest for the calendar every year or may just use it in the mag.

[George Fergusson]

>You should send that into bee culture.

Just might do that..

[leamon]

Outstanding picture. You must not be an amature photographer.

leamon

[George Fergusson]

I must not be, but I are.

Well I sent it off to Kim Flottum. Can't say if it'll appear in Bee Culture or not, but he liked it smile.gif

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Late last September or early October, for over a week while the martins were congregating to ready themselves for the trek south, I watched them every evening hovering over my backyard bee yard.

At the time I had about forty colonies back there that were in full swing themselves getting the last of whatever they could find for the winter.

I watched in dismay while the martins, about fifty of them, and the neighbors two pair of chimney sweeps, and a horde of dragonflies relentlessly swooped through my yard. :(

I was ready to get a shotgun and start blasting away at them, but I really could not see for sure who was eating what. I watched as some drones were caught, as I could see them further away, by the marauders. I could see the distinctive acrobatics of the birds as they made their quick flight changes to catch their prey.

Most of the martins would stay quite high, but they would also dive as close as ten feet from me too.

I was glad to see all of them move on south.

[BerkeyDavid]

Leamon - Bjorn is right, it depends. I have lots of barn swallows around and never notice them going after the bees. But at Mitch's place they seem to like them.

I think it may vary on the availability of other food or maybe some just acquire a taste for the bees.

Sounds like Bullseye Bill saw them stocking up for the flight south.

I have had martins longer than bees and have a real attachment to them, they are down in Brazil right now hanging out, can't wait to see them come back to their gourds.

I plan on doubling my colony to 16 gourds this summer if that tells you anything. And I don't expect it will have any impact on my bees.

[BerkeyDavid]

George that is a cool picture. If Barry redoes the site it would be nice if we could vote "recommend" on someone's comment / post. I am sure that picture would get lots of "recommends!"

[Hobie]

Wow, George! What type of camera/lens do you use? The clarity is incredible!

[Oldbee]

YES! George. NICE PHOTO! I have been doing photography seriously since "67 but I still use film [Nikon]. I have a digital but not quite what I would like in quality photos. I suppose one has to get one of those 8 megapixel+ and $800+ cameras. No thoughts about Purple Martins and septic lagoons. Bees get water from many sources that we have no control over. I hope they "know" what they are doing.

[George Fergusson]

Thanks All!

Hobie, it's a Sony DSC-H1 "CyberShot" 5.1 megapixel digital. Cost about $400 or so, I've had it a little over a year. It's got a lot of bells and whistles and features I paid for but either don't use, don't use much, or haven't learned how to use yet smile.gif It's fully adjustable (focus, exposure, aperature, saturation, etc.) as well as having a nice auto-focus and image stabilization mechanism, digital and mechanical zoom, etc. I keep meaning to spend some quality time with it one of these days and learn more about how to run it. A lot of the pictures I take I use the "green" button aka the Idiot Mode: Point, and Shoot smile.gif

I'm glad the "film" is free because I throw a lot of shots away smile.gif

As for septic lagoons, I'd be just a happy knowing my bees weren't sucking up coliform bacteria even if they're only using it for cooling the hive. For what it's worth, they also use water to thin out honey for feeding brood when they don't have nectar and I'd like to think they're not using sewage for that purpose too. I guess, if it was me, I'd make sure they had a good supply of clean water to collect and I'd put up a "Bees Don't Drink" sign on the sewage lagoon and hope the bees can read smile.gif