Newbees starting out in the spring

[Michael Bush]

http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000815-2.html

Here's a link to an old discussion that newbees might enjoy.

I would like to point out that there are many things you can easily change as you go along. There are other things in beekeeping that are an investment and are diffcult to change later.

Easy things to change:

You can always go to a top entrance. You only have to block the bottom one (with a 3/4" by 3/4" by 14 3/4" entrance block on a ten frame standard bottom board) and propping up the top. It's not like everything you have is outdated if you decide that you want a top entrance.

You can always choose to put in or leave out a queen excluder. Odds are, sooner or later, you'll need one for something. They are handy for the bottom of an uncapping tank. smile.gif Or as an includer when hiving a swarm etc. It's not that big of an investment to have one (or not). Nor is it that big of a problem to buy one later if you don't have one.

You can change the race of bees VERY easily. You'll probably requeen once in a while even if you AREN'T trying to change races, and all you have to do is buy a queen of whatever race you want and requeen. So it's not that critical what breed you pick. I doubt you'll be dissapointed with an Italian or a Carni or a Caucasian. And if you decide you want something else, it's not hard to change.

The bigger issues are things that are an investment you have to live with or you have to go to a lot of trouble to modify or undo.

If you think you want small cell (or natural sized cell) you're one step ahead to use it from the start. Otherwise you'll have to either gradually phase out all the large cell comb or do a shakedown and do it all at once. If you invested money in plastic foundation, this is dissapointing (I have hundreds of sheets in my basement of large cell foundation I'll never use). But at least you won't have to cut down all your equipment. smile.gif

If you buy a "typical" starter kit you'll get ten frame deeps for brood and shallows for honey. The ten frame deeps full of honey weigh 90 pounds. Some will argue that when they have brood in them they weigh less than that. That's true. But sooner or later you'll have one full of honey and you may not be able to lift it. If you go with all mediums you'll have to be able to lift 60 pound supers full of honey. If you go with eight frame mediums you'll only have to lift 48 pounds boxes. I started off with the deep/shallow arrangement and had to cut down every box and frame to mediums. Then I cut all the ten frame boxes down to eight frames. It sure would have been easier to just buy eight frame mediums from the start. Interchangability is also a wonderful thing.

Screened bottom boards are easy to just buy. It's harder to convert the old ones.

If you buy a lot of ANYTHING, you may decide you hate it later. Make changes slowly. Test things before you invest a lot in them. Just because one person likes it, doesn't mean you will like it. smile.gif

[John F]

Micheal, from the original post of the thread you linked:

You need to choose whether you want lighter boxes or standard sized ones.

I understand the argument for using a single common size in a beekeepers operation.

Does going with mediums cause a mismatch with other beekeepers that often? The only time I can imagine is if you buy a deep nuc.

I understand the weight argument for 8 frames. Besides because everybody does it, what is an argument for 10 frame bodies?

As a mental picture, I should imagine 3 medium hive bodies for brood and 3 for supers? (I know, probably not the first year and I also imagine more supers during amazing flows.)

John

[Michael Bush]

>Does going with mediums cause a mismatch with other beekeepers that often? The only time I can imagine is if you buy a deep nuc.

You are correct. The only common problem is that most nucs are in deeps.

>I understand the weight argument for 8 frames. Besides because everybody does it, what is an argument for 10 frame bodies?

I don't agree with the arguments, but I will play the devil's advocate on both 8 frame boxes and all mediums. It costs more to buy three medium boxes with frames than two deeps with frames and it takes more work to assemble 30 frames and three boxes instead of 20 frames and two boxes. But that aside, I think it's worth the effort and the cost.

The eight frame box would be the same argument. An eight frame box costs almost (if not exactly) the same as a ten frame box and it holds two more frames. So, in theory, you need approximately four eight frame mediums to equal three ten frame mediums and it will cost slightly more and you have to put one more box together.

>As a mental picture, I should imagine 3 medium hive bodies for brood and 3 for supers? (I know, probably not the first year and I also imagine more supers during amazing flows.)

During an amazing flow I've had them stacked up where I couldn't reach the top without a stool. I think that was about six for supers but I don't remember for sure. I do remember how heavy and awkard that top 60 pound box was getting it off when it was full.

[Barry Digman]

(I have hundreds of sheets in my basement of large cell foundation I'll never use)Ya know, we have a "FOR SALE" section here. ;)

[John F]

> But that aside, I think it's worth the effort and the cost.

I can see the cost and weight arguments. In cost I will lump needing more boxes/frames in waiting or whatever and having to add labor for 4 mediums 8 framers -vs- 2 10 frame deeps. I suppose a big operation might consider cost heavily but I figure I will have a few hives eventually and have to do all of the work myself. Light sounds good to me.

> During an amazing flow I've had them stacked up where I couldn't reach the top without a stool.

And if you're a 7 foot dude that would be tall! Seriously though, I am imagining 4 mediums for hive body and 6 for supers in this case. Is that right?

Given what you've mentioned, that is, comparing 4 8-frame mediums to 2 10-frame deeps, I get the feeling that I should figure on 30ish medium frames for the brood area, or 4 8-frame mediums.

Not trying to make your life harder or anything but if you check out http://www.westernbee.com, go to New Online Catalog (left bar, midway down) user Select Category pick boxes and then show products, find 6 5/8 super-select and choose the pulldown for 10 -vs- 8 frame, they have 4 different dimensions for 8-frame boxes. Uhm, ??? I don't even know what to ask about that.

Also, id budget stuff good enough?

John

[Michael Bush]

>>(I have hundreds of sheets in my basement of large cell foundation I'll never use)
>Ya know, we have a "FOR SALE" section here.

Since I've gone to small cell the large cell just seems wrong. I keep thinking about giving them to someone local or selling them, but then I'd rather talk them into small cell without coercing them with cheap equipment. smile.gif

>And if you're a 7 foot dude that would be tall!

Actually I'm 9 foot. (just kidding)

>Seriously though, I am imagining 4 mediums for hive body and 6 for supers in this case. Is that right?

I was still using deeps for brood back then, so I think it was two deeps and six or seven mediums. When running all mediums, since I don't use an excluder and all the boxes are the same, it's hard to say for sure what's brood, but my hives going through the winter vary from two to four boxes depending on the size of the cluster.

>Given what you've mentioned, that is, comparing 4 8-frame mediums to 2 10-frame deeps, I get the feeling that I should figure on 30ish medium frames for the brood area, or 4 8-frame mediums.

That's about right. Although, depending on the queen and the hive they may only need two or three but the also might need four or five. If you don't use an excluder it's irelevant. The queen will use what she needs and you need to give them the room to do it.

>I don't even know what to ask about that.

They didn't used to have that on Western Bee Supplies web site. They have posted here that eight frame boxes are available. Because Brushy Mt. has all sorts of acccessories for eight frame hives (imirie shims, miller feeders, excluders, bee escapes, screened bottom boards, migratory covers, telescopic covers, screen doors, etc. etc. etc.) and theirs are all 13 3/4" I've standardized on that size. You can almost squeeze nine frames in and I shave a 1/16" off each side of the end bars and do just that. I run 9 frames in the eight frame boxes for brood and 7 in the supers for honey.

>Also, id budget stuff good enough?

In my experience, in general budget equipment varies a lot. Sometimes it's pretty good. Sometimes it's warped and hard to assemble. I've only had a little budget equipment from Western Bee but it seems like it was pretty good. But I don't know how consistent it is. Commercial is very predictably good and straight with no messing around to get it to go together.

[Ross]

The single biggest item to choose is frame size IMHO. I use mediums everywhere at Michael's recommendation. It really makes my life easier being able to move a frame anywhere in my system.

[Michael Bush]

True. Frame size is the hardest thing to change. Changing a deep box to a medium isn't hard, but changing deep frames to mediums is a lot of work and changing shallow frames to mediums is not worth the effort.