new package on small cell

[jah72577]

I have a few questions on this topic that after a long search, still cannot find the answers. (they might be out there but my eyes are hurting)I am planning to start a package on small cell foundation, my questions are: At what time do I begin swapping out the brood? And what do I do with the brood I take out? Do I have to throw it away, or is there a way to clean of the foundation and put it back in to be drawn again? (if not than I will go through two sets of foundation?) Also, will I need to worry about treating for mites at all during this process?

Thanks
Jason

[Michael Bush]

>At what time do I begin swapping out the brood?

You don't. Just work the larger frames to the outsides and pull them when they are empty or full of honey. If you reallly can't seem to work them out, you can try moving them above an excluder and wait for them to emerge and them remove them.

> And what do I do with the brood I take out?

Don't.

> Do I have to throw it away, or is there a way to clean of the foundation and put it back in to be drawn again? (if not than I will go through two sets of foundation?)

If I had first regression combs (5.1mm or so) and I had any shortage of 4.9mm drawn combs (which you probably do) then I'd keep the 5.1mm combs to reuse with other hives eventually to save them drawing them. Of course if you have drawn 4.9mm you can melt down the 5.1mm and forget it.

>Also, will I need to worry about treating for mites at all during this process?

Monitoring is the key. If the numbers get high, you can do a drone magnet frame or some powdered sugar or something. But you may or may not need to DURING the process. I would monitor the mite levels (by watching the tray in your SBB or using a sticky board or doing a sugar roll) until they have stayed acceptable for at least a year. Then I'd still periodically check.

[jah72577]

Alternatively, could I use beveled top bar frames with a full sheet of 4.9 foundation in the middle for each box? Will this work with package bees, for each box all the way up through the supers?

[Michael Bush]

>Alternatively, could I use beveled top bar frames with a full sheet of 4.9 foundation in the middle for each box?

Yes.

>Will this work with package bees, for each box all the way up through the supers?

Yes. I don't even use the frame with the foundation in it, but it will probably help insure they get started straight.

[jah72577]

So if I start a package on all beveled frames is there a greater chance for a beginer such as myself to have problems with this or to have hive falure alltogether?

[wayacoyote]

jah,
Actually, you'll probably do better than Most at getting it right. Why? because beginners like to be in their hives. It is good way to learn. And to keep on top of troubles.

What you're discribing, we call "foundationless" frames. And for them, you can use bevels just fine, or a 1 inch wide strip of foundation (cut with a pizza cutter and a straight edge). Here's another method with less work for you: the wedges that hold the foundation to the topbar can sometimes be turned (depending on the maker) on to their side. This will leave an edge hanging down which serves the same purpose as the beveled strip without you having to cut strips. Either way, if you have a wad of wax or a beeswax candle, just rub it along that bottom edge to give them a bit of motivation.


The main problem I've seen reported, and I experienced it myself, regarding foundationless frames is that sometimes the sides of the comb will curl one direction or the other. I'm not sure why they do that, but once it starts on one frame, it will be followed on the others. By constant monitoring, you'll catch it before it gets to far and you'll correct it. Just take a sharp knife with you to the yard.

You've been talking with Michael. He is a great promoter of not giving the bees too much hive too early. He, and scientific papers I've read, report that they'll draw foundationless frames faster than others. (Interestingly the scientific paper mentioned that unembossed wax was second, ahead of store-bought foundation. So don't "throw out your wax", use it to make your own foundation or starter strips.)

Something that might help kill two birds with one stone would be to fix yourself a follower board. You might just take an empty frame and staple a sheet of masonite to the side of it. Put in a few frames to get your hive started and put this on the side. As your bees start drawing comb and expanding, slide your starter board over and insert another comb. This will give them less room to have to tend to, and may help keep those combs on the sides straigher.

As for those mis-sized combs. DON't toss them for another reason: If you don't care to store them, you can use them to get your next packages or swarm started. They'll be semi-regressed and will have the benefit of pre-drawn comb. Otherwise, you'll have to regress each package you purchase until you get many established.

Waya

[Michael Bush]

>So if I start a package on all beveled frames is there a greater chance for a beginer such as myself to have problems with this or to have hive falure alltogether?

The risk is that they will build the combs off of the frames. You can minimize this with one frame of foundation or one frame of drawn comb or by putting them in a five frame nuc until those five frames are started and then move them into an eight frame box until all eight are started and then move them into a ten frame box. You could, make a division board and just increase the size as you go with that.

>The main problem I've seen reported, and I experienced it myself, regarding foundationless frames is that sometimes the sides of the comb will curl one direction or the other. I'm not sure why they do that, but once it starts on one frame, it will be followed on the others.

That's the main problem.

> By constant monitoring, you'll catch it before it gets to far and you'll correct it. Just take a sharp knife with you to the yard.

If often cut the curling ends losse and just push them back square with the frame.

>You've been talking with Michael. He is a great promoter of not giving the bees too much hive too early.

This also helps keep them straight.

>He, and scientific papers I've read, report that they'll draw foundationless frames faster than others. (Interestingly the scientific paper mentioned that unembossed wax was second, ahead of store-bought foundation.

I'd be interested in finding that. Jim thinks I'm hallucinating. smile.gif

>So don't "throw out your wax", use it to make your own foundation or starter strips.)

That works too.

If I get a totally messed up comb of honey, I just scrap it. If I get a totally messed up comb of brood, I cut it out and tie it into a frame.

Another trick that gets straight combs and prevents swarming is to feed empty frames (they don't need starter strips or comb guides) between nice straight drawn brood combs. They make these nice and straight and even. Just don't feed more than one in at a time.