Homemade foundationless frames (picture)

[mudburn]

I just purchased two hives in January and have been waiting for it to be warm enough to give them more room in their brood nest. If the weather is nice tomorrow, I'll be adding a deep super to each of my two hives (they are currently housed in a deep and a shallow). I want to move them to foundationless frames, but I didn't have enough deep frames like I thought I did. So, I made some. I used some poplar boards that I sawed a year ago. I ripped and planed them to the thicknesses and widths I wanted and then brad nailed them together (it's nice having the equipment to do this). I made 22 of them one afternoon. I think they look good, so thought I'd share a picture.

Darryl

Homemade Foundationless Frame (http://www.intergate.com/~dapifer)

[jim b]

Very nice!

I make my own foundationless frames from poplar too.

Might i suggest some glue? It might be there and i can't see it. I use lots of glue and i hope it lasts. Time will tell.

I really like foundationless alot. I've got a few packages of foundation that i bought when i first started(not too long ago) and i don't know what i'll do with them- roll them into candles maybe.

I had one swarm start building across frames on an angle once. I removed what they had built and turned the hive to line up with how they wanted to build and the rest went just fine. What fun!

Welcome to this awsome site. There are some truely amazing people here to help and answer all questions. Enjoy!-j

[Michael Bush]

Nice looking frame.

When I get cross combs I just cut the combs and tie them into frames. The drawn combs then act very effectively as comb guides. The bees remove the strings or rubber bands later.

[mudburn]

I didn't use any glue -- I just shot 1-5/8" brads into the joints. They seem more stable than the regular frames I have, so I didn't glue them.

I gave both hives more space today. I moved the shallow super to the bottom, put the deep hive body on next and the new deep on top. I alternated existing deep frames with the ones I made in both deep boxes, leaving the core of the brood area in the original deep.

Both hive seem to be doing well. One is larger than the other, which I noticed in January. I didn't find the queen, but I didn't search every frame for her -- just the ones I moved to the top. It seemed like enough disturbance for them as it was. There was capped brood and some larvae that I disturbed which were between the two hive bodies.

I'm anxious to see how they do with the foundationless. Thanks MB for comments you've made elsewhere that pointed me in this direction!

Darryl

[Tom Chaudoir]

Nice work, mud. Snap another pic when they start construction.

[drobbins]

glue is a really good idea
it's cheap and it makes the frame a LOT stronger
keep in mind you want these frames to last many years and you'll be prying them loose from the hive a lot of times

Dave

[Bill Warren]

drobbins,

nice pics. i'm going to look at them all tonight when i get to work. 1 question...is that a top feeder? and if so, did u make it yourself? thanks.

bill warren-maine

[Tia]

I'm with drobbins on the glue thing. I always glue and nail my frames and so far, so good. The frames I got from my beekeeping teacher were nailed only and a lot of them have started pulling apart when I go to take them out to inspect them. The nails alone seem to work loose after a couple years' use.

[drobbins]

Bill,

not sure which pic you're refering to but I don't think there's a pic there with a feeder I've built
there is a pic of an observation hive I built with a built in feeder

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/Dsc00958.jpg

Dave

[Sundance]

Glue is a must in my book as well. As is nailing into the top bar from the sides. Prying frames up can raise heck over time.

Nice frames. Sure wish someone made them for sale reasonably. Like Browning Cut Stock.

[ainsof]

Nice work indeed Mud.

BTW, what's "cross comb?"

[Michael Bush]

>what's "cross comb?"

Comb that is not in the frame. In other words running in some other direction.

[Bill Ruble]

No, actually crossed comb is half bee wax and half parifin!!!!!! :D :D :D :eek:

[guatebee]

What is the width on top and end bars? I assume 1".
Do you smear some wax on the guiding edge?
If wired, how well do bees build comb leaving wire IN?

I too love playing around with tools. Nice picture, thanks for sharing.

[guatebee]

Why using tapered end bars, instead of straight bars, maybe 3/4" wide? The Hoffman type spacer idea seems to work if and only if you use 10 frames.
Many beekeepers use 9, and some like MB are suggesting we play with 11 for brood.

Straight end bars ARE much easier to cut. Would you still make them 1"?

[wayacoyote]

GuateBee,
When I made frames like Mud's with the tappered top bar, I did, as you said and coated the sharp edge with wax. I just rubbed a block of wax on it.

Now I use regular Hoffman frames and a thin strip of foundation as a starter strip.

Yes, I wire my frames and the bees do a great job just building the comb down, around the wire. It helps support the comb during inspections even if the comb isn't fully drawn and well anchored on the sides and bottom.

Straight end bars would be easier to cut, but the tapers allow the bees to walk around the sides of the frames instead of only allowed to go through the tops and bottoms. this can be done with a router table or edger.

Waya

[guatebee]

Bees will walk around the end bars at the narrow part OK. My point is why not make end bars same width (narrow)from top to bottom.

I`ve made simple frames where top bars, end bars and bottom bar all are 1" wide. Using glue and nails and square cuts yields super strong frames.
I figure brood comb is always drawn to a specific depth. Only honey cells can be drawn deeper depending on available space.

So if the beekeeper uses 11 frames, with equal spacing between them, there will be a 5/16" gap for bee transit all around the frames.
(5/16" is half way between 1/4" and 3/8").

[Michael Bush]

>Bees will walk around the end bars at the narrow part OK. My point is why not make end bars same width (narrow)from top to bottom.

It has been done. They just get glued together more and are harder to separate.

>So if the beekeeper uses 11 frames, with equal spacing between them, there will be a 5/16" gap for bee transit all around the frames.
(5/16" is half way between 1/4" and 3/8").

Comb Width by Cell Size.According to Baudoux (note this is the thickness of the comb itself and not the spacing of the comb on centers)

Cell Size mm--Comb width mm

5.555--22.60

5.375--22.20

5.210--21.80

5.060--21.40

4.925--21.00

4.805--20.60

4.700--20.20

ABC XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition Pg 126

Small cell comb is 2mm less than large cell comb. So you end up with more then 5/16" If a 4.9mm cell size is 21mm thick and you have 32mm (1 1/4") on center then you have 11mm beespace between, which is closer to 7/16".

[Keith Malone]

Hi,

I have found using foundationless frames and frames with starter strips the bees will never connect to the bottom bar. So far I have not seen the bees connect to bottom bar not to say that they won't but I have not seen it done yet. This season I am going to use Charles Martin Simon's design shown at;
http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/stinging-insects.htm
or at;
http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/frameinstructions.htm
His frame design incorporates a wedge on the bottom bar just like on the top bar and this is supposed to help the bees to connect to the bottom bar.

[Michael Bush]

With honey they seem to connect it more, but in the brood nest they do seem to avoid it. I'm wondering if it has to do with having a dance ground. Often they don't attach one side also.

In the Dadant deep foundationless frames I've build I put a bevel all the way around and a 1/16" welding rod horizontally down the center. These seem to work pretty well to get them to attach it all the way around and to give some more support before they get it attached:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/DadantDeep1.jpg

One could put a bevel all the way around and down the center vertically like Langstroth did:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/LangstrothFrame.jpg

[mudburn]

>What is the width on top and end bars? I
>assume 1".

The top bar is 1", and the side bars are 1-5/16" at the top.

>Do you smear some wax on the guiding edge?

I didn't.

>Why using tapered end bars, instead of straight
>bars, maybe 3/4" wide?

I made things up as I built the first couple. I used a regular wired foundation frame as a guide and copied the tapered part. I thought there must be some reason for it, probably making pulling them out of the hive easier.

>The Hoffman type spacer idea seems to work if
>and only if you use 10 frames.
>Many beekeepers use 9, and some like MB are
>suggesting we play with 11 for brood.

Well, actually, it ended up that 11 of these will fit in the box. I wasn't aiming at that, but it happened.

>Straight end bars ARE much easier to cut. Would
>you still make them 1"?

What I made was very easy. I cut the end pieces to the 1-5/16" width (probably aiming at 1-3/8" but the table saw isn't exactly accurate). I then set the fence on the table saw to about 1/8", cut the pieces a distance that looked good and then moved them laterally away from the fence. I didn't figure they needed to have a smooth, non-sawmarked taper.

I'm new to this stuff, but I thought I'd give it a go. I don't like to spend money, so this was my answer. I'll probably build the other wooden ware I need as I need it.

Darryl