Evidence of moisture

[Barry Digman]

Temps the last few days have been in the low teens at night and mid thirties during the day. I noticed this morning that there's a little puddle of water on the landing board at the entrance, which has a reducer in place. I didn't notice any moisture last year, but I left a medium on top of the two deeps. Just wondering if this indicates a problem. No indication of any moisture on another hive nearby.

[MountainCamp]

If there has not been any rain / snow, and there are no leaking feeders, then yes the puddle would indicate moisture in the hive.
That does not automatically mean a problem. The moisture condensed and ran down the inside of the frontside of the hive and then out of the hive. This water can be usefull to the colony.
If, on the other hand the condensate was dripping onto the cluster, it would be a problem.
Many times in winter I find ice crystals formed at the corners of the top hive boxes. I don’t worry about it unless the condensate is forming on the inner cover, where it can drip back down on the cluster.

[beebarf]

I have moisture problems around here too. I had an idea I wanted to run by you guys. Do you think it would be alright to put some of those silicate packets from shoe boxes, or a dryzaire packet, into a little box with slits in it,(so the bees cant get to it),and put them in each corner, between the inner cover and top cover??? I get a lot of condensation build up there, which quickly turns moldy. The packets say do not eat, would they be harmful to the bees, or honey in any way?

[Michael Bush]

I doubt they will make a big difference, unless it's a very large container of them. But I don't think it will hurt any at all. They put the packets in vitamins and many other edible things which is why they mark them "do not eat".

Michael

[MountainCamp]

Why not put a empty super on top of the inner cover and put granulated sugar on top of the inner cover.
The sugar will absorb moisture / condensate and if the bees need to they can eat the sugar as well.
You cover two problems with one solution.

[Michael Bush]

I agree with Mountain Camp. You may as well use sugar. It is also very hydrophilic and will absorb and give off moisture in a similar manner and the the bees CAN eat it. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[dickm]

I use a piece of homosote cut to the size of a super with a hole in it for vapor to come up. It gives the water a place to go.

Dickm

[beebarf]

Ok, thanks for the different ideas. I think I will try the sugar first. There is always a bee, or 2 up top trying to drink the puddle of condensation water.

[jfischer]

Silica Gel works great in sealed packages
like electronics in plastic bags, but
trying to use any "dessicant" (even sugar)
in a beehive environment sounds futile.

While the bees regulate both temperature
and humidity with amazing precision for
brood, this control does not extend beyond
the brood area. The further away you get
from the brood area (or the center of the
cluster of overwintering bees), the closer
you will approach the conditions outside
the hive.

You could put several pounds of dessicant
in a hive, and you will simply have a
"moisture sink" that would absorb moisture
from the air mass, and remain damp long
after the humidity went down. I can't
imagine that it would have any impact on
the overall colony, other than to take
up space.

Condensation, dew point, and temperature
inter-relate in complex ways, so it is
hard to prevent condensation by any means
other than venting. (This comes up all
the time with electronics enclosures.)

I would not worry about condensation that
appeared after conditions that resulted
in morning dew or frost. Anyone who
has been camping in winter can relate
a story about waking up to a tent covered
with a sheet of ice on the INSIDE. While
this makes packing up the tent difficult
and delays the hike, one should note that
the sleeping bags are not ice-covered.
What caused the ice? The exhalations of
the sleeping hikers.

A tent full of hikers in winter has a lot
in common with a hive full of clustered bees
from a thermodyamic viewpoint.

[Michael Bush]

>A tent full of hikers in winter has a lot
in common with a hive full of clustered bees
from a thermodyamic viewpoint.

I think a tent full of campers is the nearest thing we can grasp to a cluster of bees in the winter. A heated house in no way resembles a bee hive in the winter.

[dickm]

As I read this I keep remembering the time I left 10, 4 frame nucs in my SUV overnight. It was spring and got to 40 or so at night. In the morning all the windows were thoroughly fogged up.
Any camper will know about a "Fly". It's the separate tentlike waterproof covering that mounts 6" or so above the tent. The tent itself is not waterproof. Moisture goes through the tent, collects on the fly and drips down. If you sleep in a sleeping bag covered with a poncho, you will wake up very wet.
Applying this to beekeeping would involve a dome shape on top of the cluster so that water could condense and roll to the outside of the cluster trickling down the inside of the hive. This is what some people think happens anyway.


Dickm

[2 solitudes]

>Condensation, dew point, and temperature
>inter-relate in complex ways, so it is
>hard to prevent condensation by any means
>other than venting. (This comes up all
>the time with electronics enclosures.)

I have been very interested in this topic as a Northern beekeeper. I found psychrometric charts are a usefull tool to understand what can happen in the hive with temperature/humidity/condensation. On the web, you can download excellent psychrometric charts from linric, USA (psycpro software). They have charts in different units, for different ranges, different sea levels.

>While the bees regulate both temperature
>and humidity with amazing precision for
>brood, this control does not extend beyond
>the brood area.

If I am not mistaken, humidity is regulated around 40% in the brood area. But I am wondering if such a regulation also occurs in the winter cluster. If so, what is the RH in the wintering cluster ?

>I would not worry about condensation that
>appeared after conditions that resulted
>in morning dew or frost.

Certainly, they are day and night cycles. But It seems also the risk of condensation and drops on the cluster varies between automn, winter and early spring, namely when there is brood or no brood. While venting may be required in some periods, it can be useless in another period. I may be an explanation of the eternal debate about up ventilation hole required or not required, each camp having its lot of success stories.

Hervé

[Barry Digman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A tent full of hikers in winter has a lot
in common with a hive full of clustered bees
from a thermodyamic viewpoint.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That I understand. No matter how many times we go over food, clothing, and proper sleep systems for winter camping there's always one tent full of new boys in our troop that's wet in the morning. The older ones learn to sleep outside with nothing but a tarp above them to keep the snow off.
I guess the answer is (at least partially) that as long as the moisture is not dripping directly onto the cluster it's not a big problem.

[MIKI]

Getting back to the dome idea, I have a topbar that has moisture on the bars when I opened it recently on a warm day. I thought it may be a good idea to have some moisture because I put fondant in the bottom. I was concerned about it dripping on the cluster so I lifted the right side of the hive 1/2 a bubble with the idea the water would run along the bar to one side. This was about two weeks ago and they were flying yesterday.

------------------
Procrastination is the assination of inspiration.

Gary