More small cell questions.

[TRC]

I'll have my first hives in the spring, and am trying to get this SC thing straight. I'll tell you what I'm thinking, and where I'm getting lost.

Brood
2 deeps with 9 frames each. 5 with full sheets of Dadant small cell foundation, and 4 in between with starter strips made from the same.

Honey Supers
Here's where I stumble. For my first year I plan to go with cut comb or crush and strain. I'm pretty sure that the Dadant foundation is wired, which would be miserable for cut comb.

Can I go with starter strips of plain wax? Do I have to alternate between full sheets and strips, or will they build up the starters without the guides on each side? If I have to alternate, what's the strategy for harvesting honey?

Best,
Tom

[drobbins]

Hi Tom,

I just started beekeeping last spring so I'm no expert, but I have been paying a lot of attention
you want 10 frames in your brood box
I haven't tried interleaving foundation and starter strips like you describe but it sounds like a good idea
I'm gonna try it
shove the frames all together in the box, you want em as close together as you can get them
some folks actually modify the frames so they can get 11 in a box but I think that's to much trouble
This will be my first spring expecting a good honey crop and I plan to use starter strips in my supers
I'm gonna do cut comb and crush and strain also so why waste money on foundation?
If they draw it pretty its cut comb
if they bugger it a little its crush and strain
simple, easy, and all natural
what could be better?? smile.gif

Dave

[george dilley]

this is my second year and first making starter strips i am using the candle magic from wally world and melt my wax and pour it over a 1x6 that has been soaked so the wax comes off easy and then cut it into strips and pour a little wax in the top groove to hold it in place

[Michael Bush]

>2 deeps with 9 frames each. 5 with full sheets of Dadant small cell foundation, and 4 in between with starter strips made from the same.

I would put ten in also. Or, if you don't mind the work, plane off the end bars 1/16" on each side and put 11 in. The bees will be less likely to mess up and more likely to build small cell if the combs are spaced like they percieve brood comb to be. Natural brood comb on natural sized cells is typically 1 1/4" (32mm). Somtimes it's as small as 30mm. 9 frames is more like 38mm spacing and the bees percieve that to be honey storage comb when they are building it instead of worker brood comb. They also build less drones spaced 1 1/4" than they do when it's 1 1/2".

>Here's where I stumble. For my first year I plan to go with cut comb or crush and strain. I'm pretty sure that the Dadant foundation is wired, which would be miserable for cut comb.

Buy some 7/11 thin surplus from Walter T. Kelly for comb honey and you won't need an excluder. The only reason really to use small cell in the supers is so you can get drawn small cell and in case the queen lays in them. Using 5.4mm (standard brood) in the supers has the risk that the queen will lay in it.

>Can I go with starter strips of plain wax? Do I have to alternate between full sheets and strips, or will they build up the starters without the guides on each side?

Starter strips work fine. One full sheet down the middle is helpful. I wouldn't bother alternating and I'd put ten frames in the supers whenever it's foundation. With starter strips, you might get by with 9. The reason for ten frames with foundation is that it doesn't give them enough space to build a comb OFF of the foundation between the frames. This doesn't make any difference with starter strips because there is space anyway to do what they want. You just want to encorage them to build it where you want it.

> If I have to alternate, what's the strategy for harvesting honey?

Take it when it's capped. Cut it into 4" squares to sell cut comb. Cut the whole thing out and crush to do crush and strain.

[LEAD PIPE]

I am making the switch to sc this spring. Is there any problem using the large cell that is in the brood chamber now for the honey super? This is my first year and the combs are only a year old. I haven't used any chemicals in the hive, I have used honey be healthy in the syrup during feeding.

So can I? Should I?

Thanks

[TRC]

Hi Michael,

Ok. Is this (http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=114) the foundation? What does 7/11 mean?

Best,
Tom

[Michael Bush]

>I am making the switch to sc this spring. Is there any problem using the large cell that is in the brood chamber now for the honey super?

That depends on the overall setup. If you don't use an excluder (and I don't) then what if the queen decides to move up. You might end up with brood back on large cell. It's your choice.

>Ok. Is this the foundation?

Yes.

> What does 7/11 mean?

711 cells per cubic decimeter. They used to round them off to the number of hundred cells (hence the 7) and the 11 is the remainder. What it measures is about 5.6mm.

[TRC]

>711 cells per cubic decimeter. They used to round them off to the number of hundred cells (hence the 7) and the 11 is the remainder. What it measures is about 5.6mm.

Oh dear. Not what I expected at all, and a source of more questions.

Will the bees regress and build small cell in the brood chamber, yet draw comb on huge cell in the honey supers?

If I want them to produce drone in particular frames, and they are regressed, should I use huge cell or standard drone cell?

That last question was inspired by the latest issue of Bee Culture. The article is a prety convincing arguement for using drone brood to draw varroa mites. Then again just having regressed bees might be enough measure against the mites.

Best,
Tom

[Michael Bush]

>Will the bees regress and build small cell in the brood chamber, yet draw comb on huge cell in the honey supers?

With natural cells they tend to build a large variation of cell sizes with large cells often being built for honey storage. 5.6mm honey storage cells are not unusual. If you have all the same size boxes, and if you want to extract and if you want to try to get some 4.9mm drawn comb, then I'd use 4.9mm for everywhere. If you have different sized boxes for supers and you don't want the queen to lay in them, I'd use the 7/11. If you want to extract, then you could wire it (or not). If you want to do cut comb or crush and strain then I wouldn't wire it. If you want the option to extract or do cut comb, then I wouldn't wire it.

>If I want them to produce drone in particular frames, and they are regressed, should I use huge cell or standard drone cell?

I'd put an empty frame in the brood nest. They will build natural sized drone cells. You CAN use the 6.6mm drone foundation. They will build it. The queen will lay drone in it. But if you let them build their own you'll get drones in cells all the way from 5.9mm up to 7.0mm or more. I'd rather have natural sized one. The smaller ones will outfly the larger ones. There is also a certain amount of size preference, from the studies I've seen, so having a variety of sizes is probably a mating advantage.

>That last question was inspired by the latest issue of Bee Culture. The article is a prety convincing arguement for using drone brood to draw varroa mites. Then again just having regressed bees might be enough measure against the mites.

I was planning on a drone magnet for a fallback while regressing, but I didn't need it. Once they are regressed it's a real waste of resources.

[TRC]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for being patient. I see what you mean now.

I'll take your advice, go with natural cell size, and stop worrying about VM. With a bit of luck, my bees will be regressed somewhat before their first winter.

What about thracheal mites? Do you use menthol?

Perhaps that should be a new topic.

Best,
Tom

[LEAD PIPE]

I Think I will use sm in the brood nest and I will put 5 frames of sc right above where the queen is laying and see what happens. I haven’t had a queen go any higher. If she does I will adjust.

[Michael Bush]

>I'll take your advice, go with natural cell size, and stop worrying about VM.

I wouldn't stop worrying about them until you've watched the numbers and they have stablized from regression. You MIGHT need to intervene. If you don't monitor the mites you'll never know. A simple SBB with a tray is good enough. Check it from time to time. If you start seeing any number of mites, just pull it out and clean it off and put it back for three days and then pull it out and count the mites and divide by three to get a 24 hour count. Uncap a few drone brood now and again to see what's in them.

> With a bit of luck, my bees will be regressed somewhat before their first winter.

Maybe.

>What about thracheal mites? Do you use menthol?

Once I used a grease pattie. smile.gif Basically I've never worried about them. I've never used menthol. I had Buckfasts mostly before I went to the Feral survivors. Niether has ever had a problem with TM. Buckfasts were bred for that trait. Dee Lusby believes that small cell takes care of the TM. I can't say if it's the small cell or the survivor bees since it's a trait that is fairly easy to breed for. But one way or another I've never had a problem with them.