How do I keep these grooved bottom bars from splitting?

[Jeffzhear]

I have always wondered what others do to keep these bottom bars from splitting when nailing to the end bar. I have tried to angle the nails from inside to out to get them away from the edges to keep them from splitting and that doesn't always work. I am using inch and a quarter nails provided by Dadant for this purpose. Now, I do glue everything...but I would like to be able to figure out how to stop the splitting. Maybe I should only use one nail in the center of the bottom bar over the end bar? I imagine this has been discussed a million times here, but I've never seen it...would appreciate your input.
Jeff

[Panhandle Bee man]

When I nailed, I used 3/4 wire brads, sometimes 1" wire brads, with glue, a lot less splitting, nowdays I just staple them with a gun.

[paintingpreacher]

I have been using a staple gun this year. The problem I am having is splitting the end bars when I staple the bottom.

[wayacoyote]

Soaking in a bit of water will sometimes help. If you're gluing, it might affect your glue's performance.

Waya

[IndianaHoney]

Like wayacoyote said, soak them in water first. But wait until they dry if you want to glue them.

[Troutsqueezer]

Pre-drill.

[clintonbemrose]

I soak them for 15 minutes in warm water and use Gorilla glue for the bottom bars only. You use water with Gorilla glue so there s no problem. Just do not get the glue on your skin because it almost never comes off.
Clint

[Walt McBride]

What gauge is your 1-1/2" nail? I use a 3D 18 ga.
Maybe my wood is softer than what you are using. Very few times out out of thousands have split.
I have heard of using a blunt or flat end on the nail tip to stop spliting. You might try that. Nail is turned up side down on hard surface and tip is blunted with hammer blow before applying to wood.
I just realized you asked about GROVED bottom bars. I use solid bars. I have nailed groved bars using two nails on each end staying away from the kerf cut. I don't recall problems.
Walt

[ February 02, 2007, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Walt McBride ]

[George Fergusson]

It is mostly a problem with the wood unless you're trying to nail them with 8d nails. Southern Yellow pine is quite hard and will split easily. This is not a problem generally with white pine. Soaking the wood will help and as Walt said, blunting the tip of the nail will cause it to punch a hole in the wood rather than slipping in between the grain and forcing the wood apart, splitting it. This is one reason flat-tipped staples work so well.

I use 1 1/4" wire nails and white pine frames and splitting is not a problem.

[Michael Palmer]

I agree that soaking and Gorilla glue will help. But, if you soak them too long, they will swell, and split the end bars.

Try this...The reason for the splitting is that the point of the nail acts like a wedge, forcing the grain of the wood apart. Of course, pre-drilling would work, but takes too much time. Instead, dull the point of the nail. I have a steel block on my bench. Place the head of the nail on the block, and tap the point of the nail with your hammer...just hard enough to flatten the tip a little...but not hard enough to bend the nail. If you tap it twice, the nail will bend, and won't drive straight. The flattened tip punches some of the grain as it goes through the wood, and most splitting will be eliminated.

[Michael Palmer]

Oh yeah...I didn't see what George and Walt said. Guess I better just go skiing. :)

[George Fergusson]

>Guess I better just go skiing. :)

Finally get some snow over your way Michael?

[DoubleB]

Picked up my "very first" couple of boxes of frames yesterday, and after examining them, I had the exact same question. Thanks all again for your input. Seems someone is always posting the "right questions". Small world! I have been reading (and learning) here daily for some time. So, I am glad you folks take the time to share as it sure helps ME. Two degrees and full sun here in So. Wisc this morning.

[Sundance]

"Soaking in a bit of water will sometimes help. If you're gluing, it might affect your glue's performance."

Like others have said. I use Gorilla glue and
always soak the ends prior to driving crown
staples in. I use the glue at every joint. As
water is required for a good bond you get the
best of both worlds, a great bond, and little
if any splitting.

[Ruben]

I got a brad nailer and compressor from Lowe's and it works great. I read to soak them and it helps, but when I did that they still broke.

[Michael Palmer]

>Finally get some snow over your way Michael?

Yeah, we've had snow in the mountains for awhile. Been skiing since early January. Lately, it's been too cold. Lots on -20s and -15s at night, and single numbers above and below during the day. Too cold for my poor nose, that has got frozen so many times. Just found a little felt nosewarmer, that velcros under your goggles. Saved the beak this morning, as it was about zero when we took the first few runs. I love my winter break from the bees. Just scraping and sorting combs for my nucs, and painting the boxes. Ten combs in a box, set up in two groups of five. Each group goes with a four frame nuc. Should have enough for about 300 nucs.

[bluegrass]

Where you skiing Mike? Jay must be the closest for you! I didn't get into the skiing much, played around on Burke some, but mostly was into snowmobiles. That was until Vast got carried away with their TMA prices.

[ February 02, 2007, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: bluegrass ]

[Michael Bush]

Flip the nails over and hit the point with the hammer head to blunt them. Then nail them.

[Sundance]

Good point MB, I routinely do that for
bigger nails, just never thought about
it for the little fellers.

[George Fergusson]

>Flip the nails over and hit the point with the hammer head to blunt them.

That's what I do. It's usually not necessary with white pine but often a good idea when driving wire nails through wood near a knot or where the grain is other than straight because the thin nails tend to follow the grain and can slip off to the side, sometimes even curving enough to come out through the side. Blunting the nail has the effect of allowing the nail to cut through the cross grain and drive straight.

[Michael Palmer]

>Where you skiing Mike? Jay must be the closest for you!

Smugglers Notch. On the other side of the mountain from Stowe. $400 season pass! Nice area...unpretentious, unlike Stowe. Never crowded during the week. Cheap enough so we can go other places on deal days, and not break the budget. Go to Burke once in awhile, but they're in a huge expansion, with condos etc. Too bad, they tore down the old lodge.

[bluegrass]

Why do you guys nail and glue? If I build or buy unassembled I just glue.

[ February 03, 2007, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: bluegrass ]

[Michael Bush]

I glue and staple with 1" long 1/4" crown staples. But I USED to nail them...

[Michael Palmer]

>Why do you guys nail and glue? If I build or buy unassembled I just glue.


Because, I use Gorilla glue. It expands as it cures, and pushes the surfaces apart.

[Fuzzy]

The last batch of frames, I borrowed a brad nailer. It took a bit of tweaking, but lowering the pressure to about 40-45PSI was just enough to sink the nail and leave the head at the surface of the wood. Anything more than that would embed the head 1/8in or deeper.

I use glue and then put one T nail into the center of groove to hold in place. I also nail the end bars from the side into the top bar. Not from the top into the end bar. You never pull a top bar loose that way.

Fuzzy