Freezing jars of honey and expansion

[mpjourdan]

Will freezing glass jars of honey cause them to crack due to the expansion of the frozen honey. I fill my jars pretty full, so there's not a lot of room for expansion.
Thank you - Mark Jourdan

[betrbekepn]

I put my honey in little plastic milk jugs that I bought from Better Bee and freeze them to keep it from granulating. Honey does not expand when frozen. If it does it expands very little.

[ August 26, 2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: betrbekepn ]

[nursebee]

I'd leave room for some expansion. Due to low water content it should not expand as much as ice.

[cphilip]

I just froze 10 Pint mason jars of Comb chunk for a day or so before filling the rest of the jar with Honey without any incident of cracking. They were closed jars when frozen. But I avoided any concern by just freezing the cut chunk and then coming back and filling it later.

[honeyman46408]

I freeze "chunked" honey in pint jars with no trouble, I don`t think honey has enough moistuer to "freeze" it just gets stiff.

[drobbins]

I don't think it actually "freezes"
I think the low temp slows the process of crystalization which is essentially "freezing"
I could be wrong, I thought I was one time but I was mistaken smile.gif
when you add impurities to water you lower it's freezing point, kinda like anti-freeze
honey is water with a LOT of impurities
I think honey has a low enough freezing point it doesn't freeze in your freezer

Dave

[cphilip]

I am pretty sure it freezes. The freezing point of water is 32F and or 0C. A typical freezer gets well below that. A freezer is designed to freeze food. Not water. Althought it does that quite well. So you can't base your calculations on the freezing point of water as to what happens to Honey in a Freezer. \

A typical home Freezer is set to 0 degrees F. And I can tell you the comb that I took out of there was hard as a rock. So it was at its freezing point. Whatever that may be. Its somewere between 32 and 0 F I believe.

[drobbins]

interesting
I stored a few frames in the freezer till I could borrow the club extractor
some honey leaked out of the frames and much to my wifes dismay I haven't cleaned it up good yet
(yes dear, I'll get to it) :rolleyes:
I just stuck my finger in it and it's not solid, it was actually quite tasty, maybe I need to turn my freezer down smile.gif

Dave

[edit] this calls for an experiment

[ August 27, 2006, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[Grant]

I've had jars of honey sit outside on the honey stand, year-round, in all kinds of weather. We've had single-digit temperatures at times, and I've had no cracking problems.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[cphilip]

Yes... It do... I would like to know the freezing point of honey. I suppose you could calcuate it in some way? And of course I don't know the actual temperature of the Freezer I used. It could be well below zero. I know that the maximum temperature you advised to keep you freezer is Zero. But its recomended it be lower than that. I know ice cream gets nice and hard at about Zero. It's a sugary solution. Would be interesting to find out.

Of course the reason we freeze is to affect the pest, not to freeze the honey. So we need to determine the vulnerability of the pest and meet or exceed that is all we have to do. So what is the survival minimum of a Hive Beetle or Wax Moth? Does it need to be below 0F?

[drobbins]

I certainly don't know the answer for sure but my guess would be just 32F would do the trick for bugs

my jar of honey is in the freezer, how bout yours?? smile.gif

Dave

[cphilip]

No... mine are out. I just do not have room in the freezer for them. I even had to take these over to a friends to freeze the comb this past time. Left em in there a few days and then brought them back and filled them.

I did leave 10 boxes of cut comb over there that is still there... at least I hope its still there!

[drobbins]

hmm
your ice cream comment is interesting too
ice cream isn't sugary water, it's more like sugary cream
I don't think cream is just stuff dissolved in water, it's more complex than that, but I don't know anything about it
where are all the chemists when ya need em
maybe if I say "evolution" they'll all dive in smile.gif
Dave

[drobbins]

I put a half pint jar of honey in a baggie in case it busts in the freezer
will report tommorrow

Dave

[cphilip]

Oh yea. I didn't mean it was a close compairison. Just came to mind as another fluid with a sugar base. Not sure how it will relate. But I do know that milk is primarily water so that would make if further apart as Honey is very little water. So that may be totaly apples and oranges there. Hmmmm....

[cphilip]

I got a dollar says it don't. Even if it does get solid or not...

[drobbins]

I'm really more curious if it gets solid
busting the jar is an issue of the strength of the jar which I have zero interest in
I just know it made a mess of the freezer when it ran out of the combs and I wonder how to prevent it
(put the frames in a garbage bag dummy) :rolleyes:

Dave

[ August 27, 2006, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[iddee]

If you used a mason jar, you are cheating. They are made to can or freeze. You can freeze water in them and they will not break. Use a mayonnaise or honey jar, if you want an honest test. My opinion is the solids in honey will contract as much as the water expands, and the jar will not break.

PS. I notice no one has mentioned the contraction of the solids. Why???

[drobbins]

doh
now we're gonna talk about physics
Mr Fischer will be in here to straighten us all out smile.gif
honey is sugar in solution in water (dissolved in water)
there's actually more sugar dissolved in the water than the law will allow so over time the sugar will come out of solution and crystalize
the water and sugar seperate
ok, that's one process
cooling the honey below 57F slows that process
on a different front we have freezing
when you freeze water with something dissolved in it the whole thing freezes, not just the water
most materials, when they "freeze" shrink
water is highly unusual in that it gets bigger, that's why the jar breaks
when you dissolve stuff in water you lower it's freezing point
how low is the freezing point of honey
I think it's below the temp in my freezer
update tommorrow

Dave

[ August 27, 2006, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[cphilip]

Good luck Dave! :D

I did find this number though... but note this is not 100% honey. Have not found that number yet


A 68% honey solution freezes at 21.6 °F (-12.01 C)

and a 15% solution freezes at 29.44°F to 29.25 °F (-1.42 °C to -1.53 °C)

If one was to speculate its linear one would expect then Honey to freeze at around say 15 to 10 F?

[ August 27, 2006, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: cphilip ]

[beedeetee]

I still have two pint jars of honey in my freezer from 2005. The honey gets hard, but is still a little tacky. There is no bulge on the top of the honey that would indicate any expansion.

I notice that when I thaw it, that the jar is never clear again (until it is washed). The honey seems clear, but it seems like there is an extremely thin layer of sugar coating the jar.

The honey that we are eating right now was frozen 2005 honey in a quart jar. It seems very normal.

[drobbins]

the REST of the story smile.gif
it get's REALLY thick, but you can still flip the jar upsidedown and the bubble will rise to the top in 10 minutes
that myth is BUSTED smile.gif smile.gif
to be honest my freezer may not be as cold as some, it's kindof an old beater
you guy's repeat the experiment
it's not hard
and ya get to taste the honey afterwards as part of the test smile.gif

Dave

[John F]

Would be glad to Dave!

Please send the jar of honey to ...

[drobbins]

hehe

grocery store my man, grocery store smile.gif

Dave

[longarm]

yeah i just tried it too - doesn't freeze in my chest freezer. gets real cold and thick and glassy.. but not frozen.

[cphilip]

It will... just a matter of when. I still got nothing on where that is. So its all just speculation on my part. But it has a freezing temp I am certain of that... well... almost certain.

I thought your test was about the jar? You got no thermometer either? tongue.gif

[drobbins]

>You got no thermometer either?

I measured the temp with my finger which is calibrated to within a "silly millimeter" and it was COLD smile.gif

Dave

[cphilip]

hahahaha.... I believe ya!

[iddee]

I do believe there is a dearth going on and some beeks have nothing to do........but participate in bovine feces..

[drobbins]

hey,

I resemble that compliment

Dave

[iddee]

dave, you have a pm

[nursebee]

You freeze comb honey to kill eggs and it does not destroy the combs. Relax, don't worry about it.

[Doctus Apis]

I have searched the web over and have not found a difinitive number for the freezing point of honey.

Honey, containing between 14 and 18% water, will have a very low freezing point. I remember from Middle School chemistry that Glucose has a lower freezing point depression than Sodium Chloride(table salt) but it would be too messy to use on roads as a de-icing agent, so salt is used instead.

I also know that very concentrated solutions will tend to have a "freezing front," a region where the water in the honey slowly freezes faster than the solute and forms water ice, leaving an even higher concentration of sugar towards the center of the sample. Thus, the interior will probably never fully freeze, having nearly all the water freezing out of solution first and leaving a nearly pure sugar center.

[drobbins]

>having nearly all the water freezing out of solution first and leaving a nearly pure sugar center.

try that with a cheap bottle of champagne and ya get "poor man's cognac" smile.gif

welcome aboard Doctus

Dave

[OldScout]

Does the freezing change the taste any at all similar to being heated too much?

[honeyman46408]

""Does the freezing change the taste any at all similar to being heated too much?""

NO

[betrbekepn]

>Does the freezing change the taste any at all similar to being heated too much?<

I freeze my honey to slow down granulation. When defrosted I taste what I will call a freezer wange. This taste goes away about a week after defrost.

[Dick Allen]

According to my edition (36th) of 'ABC & XYZ of Bee Culture' honey never freezes at any temperature at which it has been kept. Now, some of the writings in the previous versions of ABC & XYZ do go back quite a ways, so someone probably has by now subjected honey to REALLY COLD temperatures.

Maple syrup can be kept in a freezer and it does freeze solid and will expand and overflow in its container. But, honey just seems to get very stiff. I pulled a piece of comb honey from the freezer to try. Tasted good and had a texture like taffy. Hmmm? Iced honey for sale?