Beet Sugar VS Cane Sugar...

[rwjedi]

Is there a difference as far as the bees are concerned? I just noticed that the sugar I'm using is the beet sugar. Does it matter?

[loggermike]

Nope.Makes no difference.

[Michael Bush]

I've used lots of both and have seen no difference.

[Hillside]

Once beet and cane sugar are refined, they are chemically identical. Don't use brown sugar or powdered sugar for feeding. They contain a lot of indigestable material.

[Michael Bush]

>Once beet and cane sugar are refined, they are chemically identical.

But they don't taste exactly the same. In a recipe you can't tell the difference, but tasting a spoonful by itself I can taste the difference.

[Hillside]

"I can taste the difference."

You're tasting the very small amounts of non-sucrose contaminants. If you have really good taste buds, you can maybe even taste a difference between refiners of cane sugar or refiners of beet sugar. Most people's tastes are just overwhelmed by the sweet and can't tell the difference.

This is similar to the different tastes in various types of honey. The variation in taste comes largely from the non-glucose, non-fructose content -- which is a very small percentage of the honey.

I would certainly rather spend my time tasting different types of honey than different types of sugar.

BTW Did people notice a definite lightness to their honey this year. Mine is just "wildflower" honey, but it is extremely light and delicate this year. I pulled my supers just as the goldenrod was beginning to come in. Most honey around my area is usually kind of a mid amber, but this year it is very light. (almost too light for my taste!)

[mobees]

Was at EAS 2004 this year and asked a bunch of the speakers there. They said you have to be careful with beet sugar due to the lack of refinement. I can contain starch which can cause dissentary. They said you can't always be sure it's as pure as cane. Cane and HFCS 55 seem to be the most popular. One guy there said someone did a study years ago, and these two were the best for drawing comb.

[jfischer]

> Once beet and cane sugar are refined, they are chemically identical.

Except for the "dirty" looking crystals of beet sugar that can be seen
with even a child's microscope. As pure sucrose would form similar
"clean" crystal shapes regardless of source, it seems clear that refined
beet sugar contains a larger percentage of impurities than refined
cane sugar.

I've never heard of any case where beet sugar killed any colonies,
but most folks who want to save money on feed tend to "upgrade" from
cane sugar to HFCS. There was at least one Canadian study that had
beet sugar showing superior colony survival (statistically) to HFCS 55
for their long and very cold winters.

That said, if the bag of sugar you buy at the store does not say
"pure cane sugar", it is certain to be 100% beet sugar.

> In a recipe you can't tell the difference...

Oh yes you can! Using beet sugar is not a good idea at all in frostings,
jellies, and many cakes.

> Was at EAS 2004 this year and asked a bunch of the speakers there.
> They said you have to be careful with beet sugar due to the lack of refinement.

Who said that? If you can remember who, I'd like to know.
Again, I've NEVER heard of beet sugar being a problem for
overwintering bees, as the impurities are a very tiny percentage
of the total volume.

[Hillside]

A note of interest. An acquaintance of mine recently argued that since both sugar beets and sugar cane are introduced species in the america's that the only legitimate sweetener for us in the USA is corn syrup.

I don't think he was a corn farmer, just a wayward naturalist.

[Michael Bush]

>> In a recipe you can't tell the difference...
>Oh yes you can!

That isn't ture. You're statment is just as wrong as my first statment. Maybe YOU can. That I cannot argue. But I cannot. I should have said "In a recipe *I* can't tell the difference"

I spent a lot of my life in the Panhandle of Western Nebraska and it would be difficult to FIND cane sugar there. The beet sugar tasted fine and worked fine for the bees. But I COULD taste the difference when tasting it straight. The Beet sugar has a bit of a "earthy" aftertaste. Not bad, in fact I rather liked it.

[jfischer]

MB said:

>>> In a recipe you can't tell the difference...

I said:

>> Oh yes you can!

MB now says:

> That isn't ture.

It may not be "ture", but it is TRUE. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

It is more than a little presumptuous for one to tell others what they can
and cannot detect, moreso when the statement reveals such a complete lack of
experience in such wide swaths of cooking and baking that we are forced to
conclude that you survive by consuming nothing but Chinese takeout and PopTarts.

As I said, in baking, ANYONE can tell the difference. Also in candy making,
frostings, pastry making, jellies, jams, marmalades, and anything else that
requires the sugar to hold a "structure". This is not a taste bud thing, but
instead, a complete failure to turn into anything other than useless glop
containing large chunky globs.

My wife and I own and she runs a chain of 5 bakeries, so we speak with a
certain amount of hard-won authority and costly education in this specific area.
(See my Sept 2003 cover feature article in Bee Culture for a Norse Saga length
treatment of the subject of sweeteners in general, which addresses beet sugar,
along with everything else available on the planet today.)

If you'd like independent verification, read this: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/03/31/FD91867.DTL


> You're statement is just as wrong as my first statment.
> "In a recipe *I* can't tell the difference"

Sorry to be picky, but what you said was:

"in a recipe >>>you<<< can't tell the difference..."
(Emphasis added)

Just scroll upwards, and you'll see what you wrote.

> I spent a lot of my life in the Panhandle of Western Nebraska

Perhaps that explains more than I thought it did. ^.^


jim

[loggermike]

well,the bees cant tell the difference .Anyway none ever complained about it to me.Beet sugar is pristine compared to some of the crap we have fed to bees in past years.At least we never fed 55 gallon drums of Hawaiian Punch concentrate(but I know who did!)

[Dick Allen]

...contain starch which can cause dissentary.

FWIW. The enzyme diastase originates in the hypophryngeal glands of honey bees and is added to honey. Diastase can also break starch down into sugar.


“Diastase is one of the principles of the digestive fluids of the animal body. It appears during the fermentation of starchy substances—grains. It is one of the enzymes capable of being classed with pepsin and pancreatin of the digestive group, Its especial function is the conversion of the starch molecule into a sugar molecule.”
http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/ellingwood/diastase.html

[Michael Bush]

>> You're statement is just as wrong as my first statment.
>> "In a recipe *I* can't tell the difference"

>Sorry to be picky, but what you said was:

>"in a recipe >>>you<<< can't tell the difference..."
>(Emphasis added)

>Just scroll upwards, and you'll see what you wrote.

And if you will scroll upwards you'll see that I SAID that was what I wrote, and I was wrong BECUASE I SAID "in a recipe you can't tell the difference..." and I SAID that I SHOULD have said "in a recipe *I* can't tell the difference...".

You really should try reading before you respond.

>> I spent a lot of my life in the Panhandle of Western Nebraska

>Perhaps that explains more than I thought it did. ^.^

Perhaps it does. Perhaps eating only beet sugar in all of the cooking I ate (no one in the panhandle bought anything else since the local farmers raised sugar beets) for many years may account for me not tasting any difference in cooked products. During that time we lived in the panhandle, we baked all our own bread, made every thing from scratch and canned much of our food from green beans to jelly from wild plums and choke cherries. Unlike my house today, at that time there was not a commercial mix or a loaf of store bought bread in the house.

[jfischer]

> And if you will scroll upwards you'll see that I SAID that
> was what I wrote, and I was wrong BECUASE I SAID
> "in a recipe you can't tell the difference..." and I SAID
> that I SHOULD have said "in a recipe *I* can't tell the difference...".

Huh? What? Ummm, never mind. If you want to argue over what
you think you said versus what you should have said,
versus what you typed, you don't need me to participate,
as you have more than enough to argue about with yourself. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

> You really should try reading before you respond.

You really should try saying what you meant. Or what you think
you might have meant, had you thought more clearly. Or something. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

OK, let's take it as given that you were limiting your comments
to "taste", and not "structural failures" of sugar. I agree that
such issue are arcane, but for a beekeeper to call baking "arcane"
is the height of something or other. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

> Perhaps it does. Perhaps eating only beet sugar in all of the cooking I ate
> (no one in the panhandle bought anything else since the local farmers raised
> sugar beets) for many years may account for me not tasting any difference in
> cooked products.

I will agree that it would be nearly impossible for the average person
to TASTE any difference. Of course, there are people who claim to be able
to tell not only year, but which orchard grew the grapes in wines from a
single taste/smell...

> During that time we lived in the panhandle, we baked all our own bread, made
> every thing from scratch and canned much of our food from green beans to jelly

How did you get your jellies to "jell" with beet sugar?
Lots and lots of pectin, or just very lumpy jelly?

> there was not a commercial mix or a loaf of store bought bread in the house.

How did cake frostings come out? Someone had to have frosted a cake now
and again, my bet would be that extreme measures were required.

[Michael Bush]

>> And if you will scroll upwards you'll see that I SAID that
>> was what I wrote, and I was wrong BECUASE I SAID
>> "in a recipe you can't tell the difference..." and I SAID
>> that I SHOULD have said "in a recipe *I* can't tell the difference...".
>Huh? What? Ummm, never mind. If you want to argue over what
you think you said versus what you should have said,
versus what you typed, you don't need me to participate,
as you have more than enough to argue about with yourself.

I thought it was pretty simple.

>> You really should try reading before you respond.

>You really should try saying what you meant. Or what you think
you might have meant, had you thought more clearly. Or something.

I apologized for not saying what I should have said the first time. As I said the in the second place, what I should have saide was "I can't taste the difference" and what I said was "You can't taste the difference". But if you wish try to correct my correction incorrectly again, I'll just not worry about it anymore.

>I will agree that it would be nearly impossible for the average person
to TASTE any difference.

Which was my point in the first place.

>Of course, there are people who claim to be able to tell not only year, but which orchard grew the grapes in wines from a
single taste/smell...

And I also said that I can tell the difference when tasting it straight, and I think you can too.

>How did you get your jellies to "jell" with beet sugar?
Lots and lots of pectin, or just very lumpy jelly?

I never had a problem with it. But then I like my jelly pretty tart too. So pretty mcuh we halved the sugar and upped the pectin, not because it wouldn't gel but because reducing the sugar changes its consitency.

>How did cake frostings come out?

How can anyone eat pure sugar frostings? We made occasional "German chocolate" frosting or cream cheese frosting, but I hate sugar frosting.

>Someone had to have frosted a cake now
and again, my bet would be that extreme measures were required.

I'm afraid I don't understand what extreme measures would be requried. Believe it or not there are whole communities where no one uses cane sugar. Like Mitchell, NE; Torrington Wy; Greeley, CO...

[dickm]

God I love it when you two fight. Mike, you know I love you but that line about..."Perhaps that explains more"... gave me a great start to the day because it was a great laugh. Admit it, he nailed you!
Jim, I looked up the word "arcane", and there, in the dictionary, was a reference to the article on sweeteners that you wrote. When it came out I sent it to a friend with diabetes as I thought he'd be interested. Even with a major in chemistry he admitted he was quickly lost. It was beautiful, thorough, and probably very accurate .... it was just
a touch technical. It makes me shudder every time I use an artificial sweetener.
The presidential debates are tonight. The best minds in the country are searching for the perfect zinger. (I'm sure the've called on you Jim) That zinger, and not the substance, is what people will remember. A little sad isn't it, that the election may hinge on a 10 second joke? So much for rationality in humans.

dickm

[farmerjeanh]

Here is an irrelevant study on humming bird sugar preferences
http://ortegobirds.com/articles/hummingbirds/sugar-preferences-of-black-chinned-hummingbirds/

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Here I am setting at home sick with the flu, feeling awful and a newbee comes along and brightens my day! I just love those exchanges between MB and 'Himself' (as in full of).

Mike, could you do it again? just for old times sake? I love it when you get him to show his true colors. :D

Thanks farmerjeanh!

Disclaimer: Drugs made me do it. ;)