foundation help needed

[oregonsparkie]

I should get my first hive next week. I dont believe the foundation is in the frames. Can someone explain in laymans terms how to put the foundation in the frames? or tell me where I can find this information.

Thanks,

[Kevin123]

Didn't you say you were getting a observation hive? It would be best to at least get another hive where you can add brood to the hive or take some away from the observation to weeken it. Over wintering in an observation hive is hard too, I think most people combine the observation hive in the fall and divide a bigger hive in the spring to supply it.

On the foundation, which type do you have?

[oregonsparkie]

Im going to buy a hive also in a week or two. I dont have any foundation as of yet. I cant seem to find any info on putting the foundation in the frames. The observation hive will show up next week and come unassembled including the frames which means putting the foundation in these frames too!.

[Kevin123]

Are you going to be using unwired, crimped wired, deriglit, or plastic foundation?

unwired you have to wire

Crimpwired you just put under the wedge top bar

Deriglit you just put into the grooved bar as with plastic

[oregonsparkie]

OK.... Ive got alot to learn... Can you make any suggestions on the type of foundation to use?? Since its going to be in a observation hive I think I wont take any honey and just leave it for the bees. On the other hive eventually(I dont plan on using this hive right away unless I can find a swarm) will start it and extract the honey from the comb.

[Kevin123]

Take your pick, plastic is nice because it can come as the frame and foundation as one unit. Diriglit is a thin sheet of plastic with wax on the sides, the wax can seperate from the plastic after a few years and then the bees stop using it. What you can use depends on what frames you have.

[oregonsparkie]

Im not sure what frames come with the observation hive but the normal hive will be based on the langstroth design(19" long frames). I guess I plan on using traditional beeswax foundation with inbedded wires. just not sure how to make 'em up. You would think there would be more info about this but I havent found it.

[Dee]

Being that you dont have much time i would suggest the Duragilt foundation. i feel this is the easiest to use especially for beginners & i use it in all my hives (you can always switch to wired foundation but you can't if you buy the all plastic kind). the Duragilt is made with a plastic sheet in the middle of wax with metal sides you'll need the removeable wedge frames to put them in (at least i feel its easier). The most important thing with the Duragilt is you don't want to bend it much, the wax WILL peel off the plastic (the colder it is the worst it is), if it does peel off (alot) you mine as well just throw it away the bees won't build on it. You should go to a couple of websites, they have pictures of the different kinds, both of these places are close by me: www.draperbee.com (http://www.draperbee.com) the other is www.dadant.com (http://www.dadant.com)
i know that Draper Super Bee is cheaper but i'm not sure about shipping charges, i'm in driving distant to both places
hope this helps, Deanna

[Michael Bush]

Personally, especially in the observation hive, I'd just put the frames in as is. They will build the comb in the center if the space between the glass isn't too generous. Between 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" they will build it fine.

Or I'd just buy 10 sheets of 4.9mm foundation and cut 3/4" strips. If you have frames with a cleat then you put the strip in the place where the groove was and nail the cleat on with three or four nails. Then you can watch the bees build their own comb.

Either way make sure you have the frames setup so they stay in the center. If you have to add tacks, or whatever to hold them there, just do what you need to.

If you want to use full sheets you can do that too. The cleat holds the top and the bottom usually goes in a groove at the bottom.

If you get full sheets of plastic you can just leave the cleat on and pop the sheet in the grooves.

If you get duracomb or duragilt it will stay flatter for longer until the bees get it drawn.

They all work.
http://www.beeclass.com/DTS/Frames.htm http://www.uky.edu/Agriculture/Entomology/ythfacts/4h/beekeep/fig7.gif

[oregonsparkie]

Doesn't it take alot of resources for the bees to draw a comb from scratch verses a foundation?? I know I will have to feed them syrup for a while

[Kevin123]

Might I suggest getting a book, beekeeping for dummies is a good book. Foundation is just a flat sheet of wax with cells stamped on it.

[Kevin123]

Langstroth frames come in 2 stiles, on one the top bar is just a groove, on another the top bar that has a wedge that you nail on top of the wax to hold it down

[oregonsparkie]

Thanks kevin,

I have bought a couple of books already and will try to find beekeping for dummies tomorrow. Hopefully it will answer many questions the other books dont

[Michael Bush]

>Doesn't it take alot of resources for the bees to draw a comb from scratch verses a foundation?? I know I will have to feed them syrup for a while

Theory is a wonderful place. Everything works so well there. In reality my observation is they draw their own comb much faster than they draw foundation.

[oregonsparkie]

Thanks for the inf MB,

Does this mean that the real advantage to foundation is "just" to draw a straight comb???

Boy these lil critters are pretty amazing. Cant wait til I can get my first package.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

>>Doesn't it take alot of resources for the bees to draw a comb from scratch verses a foundation?? I know I will have to feed them syrup for a while<<

>Theory is a wonderful place. Everything works so well there. In reality my observation is they draw their own comb much faster than they draw foundation.<

In addition to this fact, the midrib of natural comb is much finer than foundation. The amount of additional wax? I am not sure any more wax goes into building natural comb than drawing foundation has. Considering the speed at which natural comb is built, and since bees will produce the same amount of wax with all other factors being equal, one can conclude that natural combs take less resources to build than foundation does to draw.

Plus if they build it faster, they get to use it faster. Think of the economy of a beehive. A strong hive gets stronger faster, because they have the resources to build that strength. If a hive has to wait several days more for the queen to lay egg No. 1 to No. 1000, then the hive isn't as strong as soon and there aren't as many bees to collect the honey your were trying to conserve in the beginning.

[oregonsparkie]

I really appreciate everyone input on this. I guess I had some misconceptions about bees and comb.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

You don't have any misconceptions that most beekeepers don't have. Most beekeepers are so used to keeping bees by the book that they dont even consider letting the bees do their own thing.

Many of us are finding out that the bees knew what they were doing far better than we imagined.

[Michael Bush]

I think a lot of it too was the Bee supply places were selling the foundation. They were also writing the books. Getting everyone to use foundation was something else they could sell.

[Michael Bush]

You should keep in mind, one advantage to using "worker" sized foundation is that most all of the cells are worker sized cells and the combs are more alike and more interchanable.

If you use foundationless frames the bees build different sized cells in different places and the combs are not entirely interchangable. You'll need to keep track of where they belong and not mix them up in purpose and location. In other words, combs from the middle of the brood nest aren't the same size as combs built to store honey.

In this regard foundation is a nice thing by making combs interchangable. But then maybe there is a REASON the bees build different sized comb? Maybe they are better off with different sized comb? I certainly think that us manipulating the cell size has contributed to the impact of the Varroa and the Tracheal mites.